The NZ/SA Rivalry, how fierce is it?

[light]

Makes sense.. from a Australian. Watch the above mentioned documentary then we can debate further

I'll re-raise: Real Madrid and Barcelona. By a country mile the biggest rivalry in any sport.

Regardless, that was a fantastic post and very interesting insight. Never quite realised just how much it meant over there.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

For me, Aus and SA about even.

In the 70's an uncle, a winger, came back from a high school tour to SA with a completely rearranged face having been rucked to hell and back. Required reconstructive surgery. That scared the shit out of the sprog me. As did Ray Mordt scoring a hat-trick against us. Plus the whole bleck-oppressing thing which was some total dark-empire shit to the sprog me ("were these people even human?")

although for Aus, sitting end on at Eden Park in 1986 while some little bastard named Brett Papworth danced past Warwick Taylor for tries made a nasty sickening impression. As did some giant bearded drongoface forward named Cornelson scoring 4 against us (?) in 1 bloody game around 1980. Plus Aus always had the more dangerous backs then, Ella, Michael O'Conner, Gould (?), Slack.

 

[PaarlBok]

The Bokkies win over the Baby Blacks was good, now a win in the semis will even be better.

 

[PaarlBok]

Its this time again. Ellispark sold out and only one test can produce this. When will the rugby admins realise this money spinner. Test series between rugbys biggest rivals.
SS

Rugby's greatest rivalry continues
by Gavin Rich 12 September 2014, 08:59

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Every sport needs competitive contests and intense rivalry in order to thrive, and in rugby union it has been the long tradition of epic South Africa/New Zealand clashes that has provided that. Starting with the 13-5 win scored by New Zealand in Dunedin in 1921, matches between the two teams have always been of massive national importance to the inhabitants of the two countries.
However, while the All Blacks against Springboks remains The Ashes of rugby, or would be if they didn’t play each other so frequently, the landscape has changed considerably since the memorable, and for several reasons also infamous, final ‘Flour Bomb’ test of the 1981 series in Auckland.
That match, won by an injury time Alan Hewson place kick following a penalty call from Welsh referee Clive Norling that the Boks of that era still hotly dispute, brought to an end what South Africans will know as the pre-isolation era.
The 1981 'Flour Bomb' test:
There was a ‘rebel’ tour by a team made up of All Blacks, the New Zealand Cavaliers, in 1986, but there was a gap of 11 years in official Bok/Kiwi hostilities, and the record subsequent to South Africa’s return to international competition after apartheid was abolished indicates that the decade away had the effect of stagnating the game in this country.
There have been two Bok World Cup triumphs in the 22 years since the isolation was ended by a typically absorbing yet shrouded in controversy match between the two old foes at Ellis Park in 1992, but generally the South Africans have been struggling to keep up with the eight-ball when it comes to the New Zealanders.
Ray Mordt's famous hat-trick against the All Blacks in 1981:
Since the return from isolation, the Boks have won just 14 in 50 games against the All Blacks – which works out at a success percentage of about 29. So those South Africans who will feel that the Boks must win on Saturday against New Zealand in Wellington or it will mean there is something wrong with the coach and the team, need a dose of reality.
If coaches were sacked after a few defeats against the All Blacks, there would have been an even greater turn-over of coaches since 1992 than there has been (12 in 22 years if you want the exact figure, counting Gerrie Sonnekus, who never got to coach a game).
But it is easy to understand why there is expectation, for before isolation, in the 60 years from 1921 to 1981, it was the Springboks who tended to reign supreme, as reflected by the records. When the 1981 series came to an end, the All Blacks had claimed 15 wins against the Boks, but the Boks had beaten them 20 times.
Springboks vs All Blacks at Ellis Park in 1970, including a huge hit by Joggie Jansen.
It was a record that irritated New Zealanders and was a talking point before the 1996 series in South Africa, which was when the All Blacks, captained by Sean Fitzpatrick and coached by John Hart, finally got to catch up and then reverse the historical record by winning their first ever series on South African soil.
That was also the last series between the sides, with the Tri-Nations starting that year, later to become the Castle Lager Rugby Championship, and Bok/All Black clashes since then always being part of that competition schedule outside of course of the World Cup.
The pre-isolation era did feature some epic series. None more so than the one in 1937, where the Boks, under the leadership of the legendary Philip Nel, scored what will forever remain as their only series win on New Zealand soil. The 4-0 home whitewash that the Boks scored through Okey Geffin’s boot in 1949 was regarded as a national tragedy by New Zealanders, and the return series in 1956, the first one to be lost by South Africa in the 20th century, was regarded as more than just a sports event in The Land of the Long White Cloud.
The frequency of Bok/All Black clashes since 1992 has rendered many of them a bit of a blur in the memory, but there have of course been some notable stand-outs. The South African win in the 1995 Rugby World Cup final has to have been the moment when the Boks most hurt the New Zealanders, for the All Blacks had been the most impressive team at the tournament and were expected to win it.
Perhaps one of the most memorable games was the Durban clash in the 1998 Tri-Nations. The Boks trailed for most of the way, and seemed out of it at 23-5 down well into the second half, but the South Africans then launched a remarkable fightback that saw them clinch it 24-23 in the final minutes. Earlier in that Tri-Nations season, the Boks had scored their first post-isolation win on New Zealand soil, a 13-3 triumph at Wellington’s old Athletic Park, which ironically was where Wynand Claassen’s Boks had scored their only win of the 1981 series 17 years earlier.
The final 15 minutes of the remarkable Tri-Nations clash in Durban in 1998:
There have been some horrific periods for Bok fans desperate to see the old order restored. Those of us who were there to cover it won’t forget in a hurry the 55-35 defeat suffered by the side coached by Carel du Plessis in Auckland in 1997, or for that matter the humbling 28-0 reverse in Dunedin in 1999, a year in which Bok rugby was shrouded in much controversy.
All of those were outdone though by the 52-16 thrashing suffered at Loftus at the hands of an All Black team coached by John Mitchell in 2003, a result that was considered all the more disturbing because it happened on the Highveld.
Not that playing at altitude is necessarily a friend of the Boks in the modern era. Perhaps the most exciting of all games between the sides played since 1992 was the one at Soccer City in 2010. Bok skipper John Smit was celebrating his 100th cap, and looked well on his way for most of the game to doing it in fine style, only for the All Blacks to score two tries off effectively the last two movements of the game to steal it from under the Bok noses.
There have been many close games, such as the one where Jannie de Beer only just missed what would have been a winning kick at Ellis Park in 1997, and of course the one in Dunedin in 2008, when South African scrumhalf Ricky Januaries scored a freak try to win it when his team was down to 14 men in the final minutes.
That was the first year where the Boks were coached by Peter de Villiers, and the achievement was sullied by the return game, won 19-0 by the All Blacks at Newlands. Being whitewashed, or was it “Black-washed”, was an ignominious moment in the Bok rugby history.
De Villiers and the Boks though made up for it the following year, which was the most dominant the Boks have been in the battles against New Zealand since 1992. Had the clashes been seen as part of a series in 2009, the Boks would have won it 3-0, with good wins in Bloemfontein and Durban being followed by one in Hamilton that was more emphatic than the final scoreline of 32-29 might suggest.
Frans Steyn wins it for the Boks in 2009:
The Boks were also better than the 31-19 scoreline in the Durban game of that Tri-Nations, and it was possible at that stage to believe that the Boks were on their way being consistent winners again against their old foe. But then it had been the same when Jake White’s team smashed the All Blacks 40-26 in Johannesburg in 2004, only for the momentum to be frittered away after that, and the same sequence enacted itself again.
But that was not before an excellent win in 2005, perhaps one of the finest scored by the Boks in the post-isolation years as it came at the expense of an All Black team that was considered to be on a different planet after an embarrassingly one-sided series whitewash of the British and Irish Lions.
Heyneke Meyer hasn’t yet won agains the All Blacks, with the closest his team has come being the close defeat in Duendin, his first game against them, in 2012. However, the All Blacks haven’t lost to many teams in the last few years – the loss to England at Twickenham at the end of 2012 is in fact their only defeat in the last 40 games – and if any team is going to push them, you fancy it will be the Boks, who are currently No 2 on the world rankings, and who have recorded more wins over the Kiwis in the last 10 years than any other team.
In that sense, even though the All Blacks have generally dominated, South Africa versus New Zealand remains rugby’s iconic rivalry.
Springboks v All Blacks, Ellis Park 2013:

 

[aeneas]

I cant even begin to say how much i am looking forward to this.

 

[Baldric]

I cant even begin to say how much i am looking forward to this.

You just did.
Looking forward to it too. Should be another cracker.

 

[ACT Crusader]

If it's half as good as 2013 I'll be satisfied. That 2013 test saw some fantastic attacking and brutal defensive rugby.

 

[lemoen]

Only read the opening post, so sorry if my reply is off topic.
I grew up with my family and friends either supporting the All Blacks or the Boks. And both sides pretty much disliked the Aussies. I know my mom and gran both disliked George Gregan and Shane Warne with a passion.
Boks v All Blacks was always the big game growing up. And this was probably the time when the Wallabies were great (1995-2003).

A possible reason the games might have been so big, is a lot of my family probably supported the All Blacks that time as some form of protesting against the then government.
Then again, we all loved Lomu as kids, and the All Blacks probably had a kick ass team playing great rugby.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Bump.

This thread is great background reading for the forthcoming RWC 2015 SF between the big boys of World Rugby.

Hoping this SF will be a game worthy of being mentioned in this thread as yet another in a long line of epic battles between these two heavyweights.

 

[aeneas]

Since this thread started the teams have played 5 times. 4 wins to NZ.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hope you aren't gloating @aeneas. It is a little unbecoming. Since this thread started, how many games have New Zealand lost? It's not just a Saffer phenomena.

Of those 5 NZL-SAF matches, there have been some real humdinger games fitting the "vibe" of this thread. The actual victor in the matches like that matters little for all but the most pedantic. Rugby was the winner.

 

[Blue]

I think the Kiwis are being polite referring to the rivalry but they have had the wood so much on us that I can hardly imagine the really believe it any longer.

Sadly, it has become over-romanticized.

I think South African fans hang on to this notion that it's a big rivalry but we know we are about 80% likely of getting our arse reamed. So what do we do? We get lost in the romance of it. Talk it up. Smooth over the fact that we can't run with them with warm and fuzzy stuff. Then we sit down, watch, get excited for maximum around one hour and then cry in our beers.

 

[aeneas]

Hope you aren't gloating @aeneas. It is a little unbecoming. Since this thread started, how many games have New Zealand lost? It's not just a Saffer phenomena.

Of those 5 NZL-SAF matches, there have been some real humdinger games fitting the "vibe" of this thread. The actual victor in the matches like that matters little for all but the most pedantic. Rugby was the winner.

Certainly not gloating just stating the facts. I'd like the record to be much closer as SA are by far and away the team that i've historically feared the most. The upcoming match will be a classic I suspect.

 

[pjm]

I think the Kiwis are being polite referring to the rivalry but they have had the wood so much on us that I can hardly imagine the really believe it any longer.

Sadly, it has become over-romanticized.

I think South African fans hang on to this notion that it's a big rivalry but we know we are about 80% likely of getting our arse reamed. So what do we do? We get lost in the romance of it. Talk it up. Smooth over the fact that we can't run with them with warm and fuzzy stuff. Then we sit down, watch, get excited for maximum around one hour and then cry in our beers.

Haha, bang on Blue.

If anyone wants the romance side of it head over to The Roar, every time the sides meet there is an article on it. Hmm, there should be one up soon.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

But doesn't that make the 20% of the times that there is not an arse reaming all that much sweeter. The stuff that fathers and uncles talk to the young about in hushed and reverential tones.

Ever heard the Max Boyce story "I Was There"?

 

[Sword of Justice]

NZ fans will claim that the rivalry with whichever team has the greatest likelihood of beating them is the fiercest. The idea that they love these encounters must surely be because they have been tested the most but still came out on top almost always in recent years.

You only have to look at the Kiwi reaction on the Wallabies facebook page ever since we beat them in Sydney this year to realise the romantic notion of an intense rivalry only applies to the teams they fear losing to the most.

It has nothing to do with the character of either nation.

 

[the sabanator]

You only have to look at the Kiwi reaction on the Wallabies facebook page ever since we beat them in Sydney this year to realise the romantic notion of an intense rivalry only applies to the teams they fear losing to the most.

Ever since that game I have discovered the psyche of most ordinary NZers is incredibly damaged when the notion of AB world dominance is somewhat threatened in any way, shape or form. Their unending sh** chat on Fox Sports, Wallabies or any other rugby-related facebook page that usually involves 'ozzy sucks', 'aussie is crap', 'ABzzzz da best', 'lol at aussie we gon smash them' or somehow decrying the notion that the Wallabies are a good team, is both boring, illiterate and immensely annoying.

A South Africa win this weekend will be incredibly satisfying if it were to eventuate, if only to annoy all the NZ fans. The players themselves I don't mind (outside of McCaw and Retallick).

 

[zer0]

A South Africa win this weekend will be incredibly satisfying if it were to eventuate, if only to annoy all the NZ fans. The players themselves I don't mind (outside of McCaw and Retallick).

I understand the envy around Richie VII, but what's wrong with Nosferatu?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Every country has supporters from the far left side of the "Displays Appropriate Social Behaviour" bell curve.

NZL is not the only country with troll infestations.

 

[pjm]

Ever since that game I have discovered the psyche of most ordinary NZers is incredibly damaged when the notion of AB world dominance is somewhat threatened in any way, shape or form. Their unending sh** chat on Fox Sports, Wallabies or any other rugby-related facebook page that usually involves 'ozzy sucks', 'aussie is crap', 'ABzzzz da best', 'lol at aussie we gon smash them' or somehow decrying the notion that the Wallabies are a good team, is both boring, illiterate and immensely annoying.

A South Africa win this weekend will be incredibly satisfying if it were to eventuate, if only to annoy all the NZ fans. The players themselves I don't mind (outside of McCaw and Retallick).

I remember reading a stat that said suicide rates in NZ went up when the AB's lost. It was a while ago and I'm not sure of the source or veracity of it. But yeah, massive chips on their shoulders but kiwis have that about anything Australian.