The Moana Pasifika Franchise

[Dan54]

Omg the Star Wars one released in 1977 - biggest and best - worth watching mate. Tell me have you watched the castle - as given you lived in oz that is also a must see film for your right of passage.

Mate watched and loved Castle BEFORE I wnt to Aus, still consider it one of the real bloody funny comedies, and real good Aus humour. Which is more than I ever said about Crocodile Dundee

 

[Dan54]

Most of us think the SRSP competition will die in 2 years time due to lack of capability to compete with the 5 NZ sides. If it then splits back to a version of the separate Super Rugby competitions, would it be easier for NZ to stuff up the Aus deal by refusing to nominate the Drua to participate? Always hope for the best but expect the worst.

Mate a few weeks ago I said on here I would bet my balls that Super TT or whatever we call it would go ahead next year (if Covid allows it), and I got rubbished by quite a few. I am telling you now, the same tournament with tweaks will go ahead after 2023. I suspect there maybe a tweak or two but it will keep going, and eventually will expand to have at least a team or 2 from USA or/and Japan in it!! So if you waiting for anything to much different, I suggest you find another sport.

Dan's other prediction, when we get enough teams (ie a few from Japan and USA, we will have a 2 division comp with promotion relegation!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Mate a few weeks ago I said on here I would bet my balls that Super TT or whatever we call it would go ahead next year (if Covid allows it), and I got rubbished by quite a few. I am telling you now, the same tournament with tweaks will go ahead after 2023. I suspect there maybe a tweak or two but it will keep going, and eventually will expand to have at least a team or 2 from USA or/and Japan in it!! So if you waiting for anything to much different, I suggest you find another sport.

Dan's other prediction, when we get enough teams (ie a few from Japan and USA, we will have a 2 division comp with promotion relegation!

I don’t see U.S.A. part of this and not seen the press on this. TT will only continue if nzru see the light - which the muppets running it seem to realise with All Black exemptions for MP (Moana Pasifika). And Dan I will remind you every day of the week you said it will never happen but it just has started and brings us closer to day 1 reality of the only way TT can be successful if they create more level playing fields...

 

[Dan54]

You really should follow the game more mate. Your own Hamish McLennan was on Rugby Heaven a couple of weeks ago saying exactly what Mark Robinson said, that NZR and RA were working to get USA and Japa teams involved! It's just a matter for you I admit to NZ rugby supplying enough players to strengthen rugby Australia, and me thinking let's not encourage Australian rugby to be a dependant of NZ rugby and say now little johnny we can't hold your hand all the way to school, you have to be big enough to stand on your own feet!.
I know where you coming from mate, but I will continue to say , your answer seems is for NZR to develop players and ship them to Aus, and my answer is for Aus rugby to get better, and I would have a lot more respect for your position if you were posting that Aus rugby has to develop their players better. Mate if Aus has more teams than they have players to fill them, they have a couple of alternatives cut team, develp players, or buy them from around world ala Western Force style (not something I reading coming much from WA posters about donating players to them) Any answer but RA improving seems your answer.
And I stick with what I said , I bet Super stays roughly the same after 2023 I was right with 2022 and anyone who thinks it through properly will know I right here. (probably)

 

[kiap]

Hmmm.

Mark Robinson said that NZR and RA were working to get USA and Japa teams involved

So I take it they're keen (in particular to get the latter)

Yet …

I bet Super stays roughly the same after 2023

Seems to suggest there won't be any Supe involvement by USA or Japan, anytime soon.

 

[Sully]

You really should follow the game more mate. Your own Hamish McLennan was on Rugby Heaven a couple of weeks ago saying exactly what Mark Robinson said, that NZR and RA were working to get USA and Japa teams involved! It's just a matter for you I admit to NZ rugby supplying enough players to strengthen rugby Australia, and me thinking let's not encourage Australian rugby to be a dependant of NZ rugby and say now little johnny we can't hold your hand all the way to school, you have to be big enough to stand on your own feet!.
I know where you coming from mate, but I will continue to say , your answer seems is for NZR to develop players and ship them to Aus, and my answer is for Aus rugby to get better, and I would have a lot more respect for your position if you were posting that Aus rugby has to develop their players better. Mate if Aus has more teams than they have players to fill them, they have a couple of alternatives cut team, develp players, or buy them from around world ala Western Force style (not something I reading coming much from WA posters about donating players to them) Any answer but RA improving seems your answer.
And I stick with what I said , I bet Super stays roughly the same after 2023 I was right with 2022 and anyone who thinks it through properly will know I right here. (probably)

Look Japan are at least in the right time zone but USA? Yeah they have lots of money but it's a bloody long flight to get anywhere.
We just got out of a comp with flights around the world and games at 1 am.

 

[Dan54]

Look Japan are at least in the right time zone but USA? Yeah they have lots of money but it's a bloody long flight to get anywhere.
We just got out of a comp with flights around the world and games at 1 am.

From what I understood they were looking at Western USA which is 12 hrs diff to NZ , so games would be 6-8am Aus and NZ, not a bad timeslot really. And flight times are about same as Japan from NZ, so I can understand why they are looking at it anyway.

 

[Adam84]

US would be a money grab and nothing more, at least Japan have a rugby culture and quality home grown players

 

[Derpus]

What I find amusing is that for years now people on here have been saying NZR should put out more teams and/ or share their players with the RA teams to Level the playing field, but as soon as they add a team (technically two as I believe they also hold Drua's licence) it gets cast as a cunning plan to increase the AB selection base.

Hard to disagree, but are people really saying this?

It just seems like a dumb idea. The vast majority of players who will be eligible for MP (Moana Pasifika) will also be eligible for NZ. So, as soon as a player gets half decent they will switch to another franchise for a run at a test cap because NZ pay. Even if they only earn a few caps, a capped ABs potential earnings in Europe is far higher than a capped Samoan or Tongan.

Its a structural imbalance that could only be addressed by massively increased wages, wages sufficient enough to counter the incentive to try for the ABs. Wages they won't be offering.

If you want it to be a sixth franchise that's great. I think diluting the NZ teams might actually do something to address the glaring issues with SRP (Super Rugby Pacific). Just drop the pretense.

 

[Dan54]

Hmmm.

So I take it they're keen (in particular to get the latter)

Yet …

Seems to suggest there won't be any Supe involvement by USA or Japan, anytime soon.

Mate I not sure if 2024 is still too early, but if they don't expand to there then, we will have very much what we got now, whether we like it or not.
All I saying look at realities, supposedly early last year RA were going to start their own comp and invite Fiji in (well what we heard in here, and Hamish did mention it), I said then I doubt it, I got laughed at called names etc here. Then tv said no deal without a TT comp. Then for last few months we have seen post after post that RA would stick with Super Au, somehow expand it with all this imaginery PE money, and was told by many on here when I said it wouldn't happen to just wait and see!
I not any smarter than anyone else on here, but have dealt with the realities of trying to run rugby clubs and provincial union etc, and know that the commercial side etc etc will always hold a huge sway in decisions, certainly more then a dozen or so posters on a rugby forum, and not always because the rugby boards should make popularist desicions, but more based on the needs of the WHOLE game.

US would be a money grab and nothing more, at least Japan have a rugby culture and quality home grown players

You maybe right Adam, but Japan are just developing their rugby culture, and if we talking about you base teams on having home grown players, you certainly would not appear to want open border policies in super, so see what I mean about trying to please everyone!

 

[Dan54]

Hard to disagree, but are people really saying this?

It just seems like a dumb idea. The vast majority of players who will be eligible for MP (Moana Pasifika) will also be eligible for NZ. So, as soon as a player gets half decent they will switch to another franchise for a run at a test cap because NZ pay. Even if they only earn a few caps, a capped ABs potential earnings in Europe is far higher than a capped Samoan or Tongan.

Its a structural imbalance that could only be addressed by massively increased wages, wages sufficient enough to counter the incentive to try for the ABs. Wages they won't be offering.

If you want it to be a sixth franchise that's great. I think diluting the NZ teams might actually do something to address the glaring issues with SRP (Super Rugby Pacific). Just drop the pretense.

I think 80% of players that play for MP (Moana Pasifika) have to declare for Tonga or Samoa ( and I think will be written into contracts)which my understanding would take them out of swapping for AB's cap anyway. Didn't Greg Cornelson's son declare for Japan, which took him out of Wallabie's reach?

 

[Adam84]

You maybe right Adam, but Japan are just developing their rugby culture, and if we talking about you base teams on having home grown players, you certainly would not appear to want open border policies in super, so see what I mean about trying to please everyone!

Japan are not ‘just developing’ their rugby culture, they already have a strong ruby culture through the fan support and identify to which they play too, im embarrassed the way ‘SANZAAR‘ treated the Sunwolves and Japan rugby during the last iteration.

Apples and Orange’s compared to the US

 

[Derpus]

I think 80% of players that play for MP (Moana Pasifika) have to declare for Tonga or Samoa ( and I think will be written into contracts)which my understanding would take them out of swapping for AB's cap anyway. Didn't Greg Cornelson's son declare for Japan, which took him out of Wallabie's reach?

There is no such thing as a declaration in Rugby, as far as I know. Either you are capped or you aren't.

And whether or not they are capped is not the criteria (for obvious reasons). Its just based on eligibility (again, as far as I know).

But even if it was its still got problems. Having to declare for Samoa or Tonga is a pretty big disincentive to sign for MP (Moana Pasifika) if you think you have what it takes to play for better sides for more cash.

 

[Dan54]

There is no such thing as a declaration in Rugby, as far as I know. Either you are capped or you aren't.

And whether or not they are capped is not the criteria (for obvious reasons). Its just based on eligibility (again, as far as I know).

But even if it was its still got problems. Having to declare for Samoa or Tonga is a pretty big disincentive to sign for MP (Moana Pasifika) if you think you have what it takes to play for better sides for more cash.

Ok so they won't have to sign a contract commiting themselves to Samoa and/or Tonga? I am very surprised at that.

 

[Derpus]

Ok so they won't have to sign a contract commiting themselves to Samoa and/or Tonga? I am very surprised at that.

I don't think so - the legality of such a contract would be pretty questionable, anyway. Im sure WR (World Rugby) would have rules that prevent clubs/franchises from requiring players to play (or not play) for a certain nation.

As always, making assumptions and could be wrong.

 

[Dan54]

Japan are not ‘just developing’ their rugby culture, they already have a strong ruby culture through the fan support and identify to which they play too, im embarrassed the way ‘SANZAAR‘ treated the Sunwolves and Japan rugby during the last iteration.

Apples and Orange’s compared to the US

Japan as far as rugby is concerned would not be far ahead of USA and Canada etc in rugby sense. Japan's rugby has just really been based around company teams with professional foreigner playing with locals with very little actual clubs as rest of world know it. USA have had clubs for years, and have had a club based comps going on since during the 60s, which to me is as much of a rugby culture if not more than company teams
I know that players from NZ, Aus etc have been playing and coaching semi pro in USA since the 80s that I personally know of, and it was in early 70s that Grizzlies used to tour NZ.

 

[Dan54]

I don't think so - the legality of such a contract would be pretty questionable, anyway. Im sure WR (World Rugby) would have rules that prevent clubs/franchises from requiring players to play (or not play) for a certain nation.

As always, making assumptions and could be wrong.

Mate, I the same , I only guessing too, but we'll see anyway. But regardless I very very seriously doubt there is any players running around in NZ who is of AB quality who has not already signed for a Super team, if indeed his ambition is o play for ABs!

 

[Adam84]

Japan as far as rugby is concerned would not be far ahead of USA and Canada etc in rugby sense. Japan's rugby has just really been based around company teams with professional foreigner playing with locals with very little actual clubs as rest of world know it. USA have had clubs for years, and have had a club based comps going on since during the 60s, which to me is as much of a rugby culture if not more than company teams
I know that players from NZ, Aus etc have been playing and coaching semi pro in USA since the 80s that I personally know of, and it was in early 70s that Grizzlies used to tour NZ.

Absolutely disagree, I've spent time in both countries, but i played rugby in the US at a regional level in one of these 'clubs' you speak of. Most players only pick it up post school and really don't understand the rules, and i was in a team which had 2 Eagles players at the time. Theres a lot of expats in those teams who more or less coach players on the go.

In the US Its a participation sport and lacks any real fan base especially in comparison to Japan which has a long rooted history now in rugby, and Japan have developed their own rugby culture and identity. US rugby also has an issue breaking into the junior ranks and getting them early enough to develop core technical skills, plenty of good athletes but technical skills are lacking across the board because they don't play it growing up.

Im sorry but you will not convince me US is anywhere near Japan rugby.

 

[Bandar]

Dan, I agree with you I think the Super Pacific will stay around for a while yet.

I regards to the US & Japanese involvement if think it is more likely in the form of a Champions league type set up involving MLR & Top League, potentially down the track also SLAR.

 

[Derpus]

Mate, I the same , I only guessing too, but we'll see anyway. But regardless I very very seriously doubt there is any players running around in NZ who is of AB quality who has not already signed for a Super team, if indeed his ambition is o play for ABs!

I'm thinking on a slightly broader timescale than the immediate future.

You know, when young players are coming through and making decisions etc.

MP (Moana Pasifika) have even less chance of being competitive on a short time scale than they do a medium one.