The League Media

[mxyzptlk]

There is a small but wealthy part of the world that is frightened of the Metric system, rigidly sticking to their archaic and impractical system of weights and measures believing the simple, practical and popular Metric system to be the lead Horseman of the Apocalypse Riders coming into town to lay waste to the 'merkin* way of life. You Goddamn know it it is so and there is no goddamn way that you will force us to goddamn change.

It's 'Murikin, not 'Merkin; we're jackasses, not funky haberdashers.

 

[papabear]

Whilst I agree that it would do both codes a world of good to just merge.

I disagree with league being the imperial and union being the metric.

Union has always been slower to change and adapt its systems for various reasons, mainly it was over a bigger geographic area so it is harder to change, and lets be honest vested interests.

League whilst having a smaller geographic area, base, money, support etc, whilst still having the vested interests was forced to adapt and change to survive at a higher rate.

 

[papabear]

As for the rugby league being a low scoring affair, whilst for rugby league it probably was slightly on the low side, there were still 5 tries scored.

Put that in perspective, Aus v England only had 4 and was from an Australian perspective a very satisfying encounter.

Oddly enough, if rugby league used the same scoring system as rugby union the broncos win the game of thurstons missed conversion, assuming the cowboys don't go for penalties all the time.

 

[Lindommer]

League's heading in the direction of NFL: very successful broadcasting rights but operating off a narrow base with quite a vertical numbers model. I was surprised to find out there're few avenues to play American football once players leave high school, it's college and then pro football and bugger all else. Did I read somewhere there're more rugby players than American football players in Septica?

 

[wamberal]

Does loig have a narrow base in its heartlands? I don't think so. It seems to have a lot of depth and width to me, from under sixes or wherever they start, right through to the elite level, lots of competitions and lots of teams. I would imagine they are way ahead of us in the schools overall.

I assume that there are comparatively fewer opportunities for playing the game as an adult, for fun, compared to either rugby or AFL (or soccer, which is way ahead of us, probably level pegging with AFL at the adult amateur level). Maybe that's what you're referring to, but I don't think it makes much difference these days.

Eyeballs on screens is going to get more and more important, unfortunately for us.

 

[terry j]

I disagree with league being the imperial and union being the metric.

.

yeah, was going to say the same thing but accidentally pressed like instead of quote.

I'm all for analogies, but they gotta work!

Yes, on the number of tries. Another example of how 'comparing scores between codes' does not work in the slightest. They are completely different games. (someone I know, who is a rabid AFL person therefore used to scores like 100-90 commented on the last RWC final score of 8-9, (whatever it was) and concluded it must have been a shockingly bad game simply because of the score. Sheesh)

The thing about the number of tries in that game is, that that would have been the absolute limit for it to have been acceptable. Because there AIN'T anything else but tries. By contrast, the aus eng game may have had only four, but there was so much else. The amount of intrigue, the ramifications of the scrum outcome as but one example dwarfs anything from the GF. ALL they have is tries in league. Nothing else.

There is not even a 'forwards game vs a backs game' in league. Yes, I see it written all the time (we gonna win it in the forwards) but I see absolutely no essential difference between backs and forwards in league, or the skillsets required for each. That's why sonny bill can pack as a front row in a league scrum.

And we all saw how sam went switching to a back.

Is it just the 'six biggest' are the forwards? Or the 'least quickest six'?

 

[Antony]

The thing about the number of tries in that game is, that that would have been the absolute limit for it to have been acceptable. Because there AIN'T anything else but tries. By contrast, the aus eng game may have had only four, but there was so much else. The amount of intrigue, the ramifications of the scrum outcome as but one example dwarfs anything from the GF. ALL they have is tries in league. Nothing else.

This is the big one. Get a few rugby-heads in a room today and ask them what's exciting about the Wallabies, and they'll talk about the scrum and the Pooper's breakdown dominance. Quality backline play is still essential for an entertaining style of rugby (see the Waratahs of a few years ago for an example of this being absent) but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

[papabear]

A lot of the terminology is due to the fact that league has the same commentators as it did when the game was a lot different with contested scrums etc etc. Ie rabs, gould played or watched in that era.

You are right that the positions are becoming more homogenised in league. Its also easier to see in league, but slowly its happening at the top level in union, I think it was a GAGR article wrote about how australias kepu threw a flick pass but englands forwards were all useless at everything but set pieces. How union was moving to a game where all players had ball skills.

You also see the same thing in basketball.

I agree comparing scores aren't entirely apples and apples, it was just worth pointing out that it wasn't an entire slugfest.

I think the terminology as to where a game is going to be won in league now is in reference to the area of the field and types of plays to be used as opposed to union where it is more where the ball will be used.

Ie the forwards refer to the middle corridor and the backs refer to plays on the edges.

 

[terry j]

A lot of the terminology is due to the fact that league has the same commentators as it did when the game was a lot different with contested scrums etc etc. Ie rabs, gould played or watched in that era.

You are right that the positions are becoming more homogenised in league. Its also easier to see in league, but slowly its happening at the top level in union, I think it was a GAGR article wrote about how australias kepu threw a flick pass but englands forwards were all useless at everything but set pieces. How union was moving to a game where all players had ball skills.

You also see the same thing in basketball.

I agree comparing scores aren't entirely apples and apples, it was just worth pointing out that it wasn't an entire slugfest.

I think the terminology as to where a game is going to be won in league now is in reference to the area of the field and types of plays to be used as opposed to union where it is more where the ball will be used.

Ie the forwards refer to the middle corridor and the backs refer to plays on the edges.

for a closet leaguie papa bear, you are the voice of reason! (my only beef with the league media is the twisting of facts, ref HJs post a page or two back)

I however can't quite grasp your point re Kepus offload. I simply don't see how 'gaining an additional skill' is proof of homogenisation. He does still have to do the work that is clearly forward work, pack a scrum, lift in lineouts etc etc. Backs most certainly would not do those tasks, they do 'back tasks'.

What essential skill set does a league forward need and vice versa? There is your homogenisation.

 

[wamberal]

Incidentally, Kepu was a representative backrower as a schoolboy in Auckland, so he has some skills that not all front rowers have!


Backs do have to do some forwards tasks, particularly cleaning out at the breakdown (watch the Darkness backs in action - they are pretty bloody good at this).

 

[papabear]

for a closet leaguie papa bear, you are the voice of reason! (my only beef with the league media is the twisting of facts, ref HJs post a page or two back)

I however can't quite grasp your point re Kepus offload. I simply don't see how 'gaining an additional skill' is proof of homogenisation. He does still have to do the work that is clearly forward work, pack a scrum, lift in lineouts etc etc. Backs most certainly would not do those tasks, they do 'back tasks'.

What essential skill set does a league forward need and vice versa? There is your homogenisation.

Thanks for the kind words

As for homogenisation in Union, it is obviously no where near where it is with league and it will never be whilst there are line outs and scrums.

However outside of scrums and line outs forwards are more and more expected to have half decent awareness of where to run , how to catch and when and how to pass. More back like skills, and backs are often clearing out, or helping out in rucks , Imaybe I was a lazy arse back but as a centre and 5/8 I never bothered within any of that stuff.

Also the defensive line is filled with forwards whereas it used to be just backs.

I'm not advocating for or against homogenisation of positions, just commenting on it, to argue for or against is more a personal thing pending on an individual skill set. Sort of like arguing whether people in an economy are better off all in one big organization with a very specialized position or all running small business with a broader range of skills required.

 

[wamberal]

My memory might be faulty. But I am pretty sure that the first forward used to take the ball at first receiver was Michael Jones, and that was not all that long ago.


When I played the game, a long time ago admittedly, but for many years thereafter, good forward packs hunted as a pack. A forward who found himself in the backline on attack was a "seagull"!


The game we play today is totally unrecognisable compared to the game we played 40 years ago, maybe less.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I'm not advocating for or against homogenisation of positions, just commenting on it, to argue for or against is more a personal thing pending on an individual skill set. Sort of like arguing whether people in an economy are better off all in one big organization with a very specialized position or all running small business with a broader range of skills required.

It sounds like you might be talking about two different approaches to "skills." There are the individual footballing skills, which every player can use. Then there are the positional skills, which really remain separated and aren't as interchangeable. Just because all of the All Blacks forwards can offload doesn't mean their fullback can also pack a scrum, jump in a lineout, or adequately cover defense at 12.


The big argument against the homogenization of skills occurring in union -- or at least an argument that those skills are homogenizing very slowly -- is that England tried about half as many center combinations as they've had Test matches under Lancaster, and never found a good combination. Ireland's been in a similar position this World Cup, in that their primary center combination hasn't been able to partner up due to injury, and the replacements have been stuttering, particularly in defense.

The flipside of that is Wales managed to swap most of their backs with players playing out of their normal positions and still win some games. But that may also be down to the kind of game Wales play, mainly based on forwards getting quick ruck speed and then getting the ball out wide. In that setup, most of the forwards seem to have pretty similar jobs to each other, at least in general, open play; same with the backs.

League seems to have less differentiation between positional skills, with the biggest point of difference occurring with the halfbacks. But that seems to have less to do with game plans and more to do with how the game itself is structured and played.

 

[Gnostic]

A lot of the terminology is due to the fact that league has the same commentators as it did when the game was a lot different with contested scrums etc etc. Ie rabs, gould played or watched in that era.

You are right that the positions are becoming more homogenised in league. Its also easier to see in league, but slowly its happening at the top level in union, I think it was a GAGR article wrote about how australias kepu threw a flick pass but englands forwards were all useless at everything but set pieces. How union was moving to a game where all players had ball skills.

You also see the same thing in basketball.

I agree comparing scores aren't entirely apples and apples, it was just worth pointing out that it wasn't an entire slugfest.

I think the terminology as to where a game is going to be won in league now is in reference to the area of the field and types of plays to be used as opposed to union where it is more where the ball will be used.

Ie the forwards refer to the middle corridor and the backs refer to plays on the edges.

Skillful forwards aren't a modern thing in Rugby. In 1991 the Australian forwards were very skillful with ball in hand, especially Eales, Gavin (before injury) and Kearns. In they played a very dynamic game in the forwards and had a succession of players in the pack known throughout the world for their sublime skills, like Michael Jones and Zinzan Brooke. However the key point was always that these skills are the icing on the cake and they have to first meet the core skills for their position and then bring those extras that set them apart.

That is where Sam Burgess was done a huge dis-service by England, he wasn't given the time at 12 to develop the skills needed in the core component of that position before the extras could shine. Few people see value in the extras when the core is not being met. As for playing at 6 for England, the same problem exists for him except he had far more competition from players who had few if any of his extras, but have the core skills down pat.

 

[terry j]

ain't it great that a topic like this can be discussed in such a friendly, constructive and illustrative manner in this forum?

Imagine the crap if it were held elsewhere.

I mean, as a topic it is not that important, but I can't help but wonder how it would go if we were trying to have this discussion on the league section (or the rugby now that I think of it) of the roar for example.

anyways, even if I am the only one I think 'well done to all' for the behaviour shown.

 

[TOCC]

When Paul Gallen did something similar it was front page news of the Daily Telegraph, yet i don't think the league media is to blame.. It comes down to expectations, assisting someone who has fallen and hurt themselves is the minimum standard of any person in society.. So when a NRL player like Paul Gallen did it, it was a surprise...

Wallabies players, led by youngster Sean McMahon, came to the rescue of an elderly guest at their London hotel, who had a nasty fall and badly injured his ankle. The players came to his aid, helped him to the Wallabies medical room and stayed with him until an ambulance arrived.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...ith-james-packer/story-fnii0ksb-1227561993192

 

[JJJ]

To me league is to rugby what twenty20 is to test cricket. T20 decided boundaries were the most exciting part of the sport so did everything they could to make sure every game was packed full of them. League did the same with tries. Personally I'll take the intrigue and nuances of test cricket any day over twenty20 with its artificial boundary inflation.

I don't think twenty20 offers anything that test cricket doesn't, and test cricket offers so much that t20 doesn't. Ditto with league and union. What does league have that union doesn't?

 

[Sully]

Just reading another article about a hybrid game. Between randwick and easts?
Am I the only one who just doesn't give a fat rats arse about the hybrid game?
I'll watch a good league game and I'll watch any union game but watching the bastard chikd of both is a waste of time.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

 

[JJJ]

Probably just trying to distract attention away from the RWC.

 

[Lindommer]

"Rugby World Cup: Di Patston saved Australian rugby by exposing its sorry state, writes Rebecca Wilson". Full article here: http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/...s-rebecca-wilson/story-fndpt9s1-1227563734159

Thank Christ we've got insightful, articulate and intelligent journos like Rebecca Wilson keeping a watchful eye on our great code. What would we do without them?