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The League Media

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kandos

Frank Nicholson (4)
No, I doubt that he would. He's between a rock and a hard place. Lacks pace to be a flyer in the backs, lacks knowledge yet to be an outstanding back row, which I believe is where his future is. And as you say, the learning curve is very steep. The codes have never been so wide apart, so it's very difficult for a League player to crossover. League is a physical challenge, Union's a physical and mental challenge. Burgess may be the real deal in 4 years time, but I can understand why the England management have included him.

As for running back to Souths, I doubt it somehow. If body language is anything to go by, it appears to me that he's happy with his decision to change. It's helped by the fact that his coach at Bath is Mike Ford who's an ex League player and a fellow Northerner, so there's an obvious understanding there.

Tuilagi's a fool. Chock full of talent, but sails close to the wind like Dylan Hartley. And Tuilagi's form before he ran into injuries and discipline issues was not that great.[/quote]
 

TahDan

Cyril Towers (30)
He gave up guaranteed money, he's risking his reputation, injury (more likely when trying a new sport), and he's trying to do it at the highest levels, not just there to collect a paycheck. He walked away from the NRL when he was at the top of the heap to take his chances. If you don't see that as any kind of risk, to put all that on hold, that's your take.

To be fair it's just not the same... Moving from League to Union, and Union for an English club side is just not even remotely as big a challenge as trying to make an NFL roster at 27 with close to no serious background in American Football.

The numbers in terms of aspiring athletes desperate to make the NFL are staggering, and the complexity of the game is pretty well peerless for football codes.

Sure, Burgess took a risk of sorts, but he was basically scouted for England and his contract was assured from the get go. Hayne had to completely reform his fitness and body shape, AND learn an entirely new game just to a shot at a practice squad.

The media may be going a bit nuts, but moving from League to Union or visa versa is just not comparable to what he's done. There's only a handful of foreign players ever to come into the NFL in non kicking positions without going through their collegiate system, so it's a pretty huge achievement.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
Yes, he has. He's sponsored by Canterbury, he's the official embassador of Canterbury in UK and the brand is the main sponsor of RFU and World Rugby. That's so especial who he has ;)

Nah, nothing to do with his ability to plant people through the dirt.

On BT Sport's rugby talk show (forget the name, Rugby Tonight?), they do a thing where they have players tackle a bag with some sensors on it to see how hard they tackle. I'd love to see how Burgess and Samu Manoa stack up against each other.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
To be fair it's just not the same. Moving from League to Union, and Union for an English club side is just not even remotely as big a challenge as trying to make an NFL roster at 27 with close to no serious background in American Football.

I wasn't comparing Burgess's move to Hayne's, only the league media's penchant for spreading rumors, and rumors about them. I don't think there's any argument that Hayne is risking a hell of a lot more than Burgess.
 

papabear

Watty Friend (18)
I wasn't comparing Burgess's move to Hayne's, only the league media's penchant for spreading rumors, and rumors about them. I don't think there's any argument that Hayne is risking a hell of a lot more than Burgess.

alot of media is rumor based.

And there is always going to be rumors about people returning after rogers, tuqiri sailor etc. even sbw returned for a little bit to only return to union again...

its not a sinister league thing , same stuff floats around in every part of the media, even if a newsreader might be going to a different channel!!
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Want a look into the small-mindedness of the average league journo?

LOOK NO FURTHER!

http://rugbyam.co.uk/pages/sam-burgess-made-scapegoat-for-union-failure

Sam Burgess made scapegoat for Union failure

By Mike Andrews - @Lt_Andrewsy

The title says it all. The man whose league career is exceptional and truly worth shouting about, was blamed not only for the defeat to a depleted Welsh outfit, but blamed wrongly for his side's ill-discipline and ultimately Robshaw's poor decisions as captain.

Let me make one thing clear; it wasn't by any means Burgess' fault. In fact, He was England's best player, and that's a statement I'm obviously proud to proclaim. When he was on the field England were winning and in complete control, because he gave the team the grunt in the middle of the field that prevented the Welsh going forward. So, it was little surprise that in a game that saw only two tries in a match where 53 points were scored, Burgess would be made a scapegoat because the media knew he'd played well but also knew that he didn't make the errors that led to the English being beaten by a reserve side.

He got blamed for being a former league player. He wasn't the man to turn down a draw to push for a winning try, ironically, something you're more likely to see in a league game. His entire game got scrutinised for the defeat and his selection in general, but he can't be blamed in any way for this defeat; he offered a solid defensive platform for a team that only made 95 tackles totally. He offered go forward and a real presence in a side that had very little direct and could have done with a Jamie Peacock or Kevin Sinfield type figure to really lead the side.

There's little point in blaming a former league player because there was literally no one willing to take blame for the defeat. This is exactly what Paul Hayward of the Telegraph did. He says that Burgess looked like he was there after "winning a prize" and was wandering around "trying to be helpful." It's funny how the selection meant that England had abandoned a more creative style of play, yet in any union game I've seen barring the freak result for Japan, the games have been anything but creative and that includes England's win over Fiji.

When you look to blame one player for a result you dismiss the fact it's a team game and you also dismiss the fact that Burgess wasn't captain and therefore wasn't making the decisions, that ill-fated Chris Robshaw made.

You've got to ask yourself a few serious questions. Why would you go for a more Rugby League style play when the game flow meant it was easier to take the draw and be boring and safe? Let's not forget that this is no Leeds-Huddersfield Super 8s encounter that brought about its very own 'Sergio Aguero moment' so Leeds would win the League Shield. You've also got to ask why there was a real panic to score a try when there was over 53 points scored across both teams? And you've got to question; why is it when there's a solid former league player in the side, they are used as the scapegoat for a practically full-strength side being unable to beat a side best described as the Welsh reserves?

Let me answer those questions for you. Firstly, the push for a try at the end showed the lack of enterprise that was clearly billed at the start of the game as 'the biggest game in a generation'. The pressure to 'league it up' got to England, and it was clear that they went for a more entertaining ending their flasher counterparts would have been proud of, because they knew up until that point the game hadn't lived up to expectation, certainly from an English point of view.

Secondly, the need to kick for goals in positions where tries could be scored cost England. It doesn't take my league bias knowledge to tell you, that if you're 20 or 30 metres out and award a penalty for some sort of foul play, then it's probably best to build pressure on the opposition – definitely when that opposition is completely depleted.

Lastly, the fact that the above was judged wrong by Robshaw and his team meant they had to blame someone, anyone, that wasn't as experienced as them. That someone was Sam Burgess. Let's forget the fact he was England's best player after only 112 minutes at international level; evidently putting to shame the rest of his teammates. Let's also forget that Burgess is an exceptional attacking threat and showed that throughout his league career, scoring and creating tries at the highest level of the game. And let's forget the fact that the union media bias will try anything to dismiss anything great that comes out of league, especially if that means a decorated and experienced union player taking the blame for a disastrous result.

Sam Burgess wasn't to blame for the defeat to the Welsh and the fact the media are so quick to blame him shows real cowardice and lack of accountability that Robshaw and the more experienced players didn't produce the level of performance they should have done.

Simply put, England were in control and winning whilst Burgess was on the field. Once he was taken off, they lost all control and ultimately lost the game. How can you blame a player for a defeat if he wasn't even on the field?
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
Want a look into the small-mindedness of the average league journo?

LOOK NO FURTHER!

http://rugbyam.co.uk/pages/sam-burgess-made-scapegoat-for-union-failure


:confused:

The only criticism I've seen including Burgess is that he came out of the defensive position a couple times (and he's not alone in that), and that Lancaster should have put him alongside Henry Slade.

Noticed watching the game back with ms. mxyzptlk that Burgess did a fairly decent job of corralling Jaw Roberts. As soon as Burgess was replaced, Roberts got the pass off that led to the grubber that led to the try.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Burgess was certainly not England's best player - but neither was he to blame for their defeat.



Without taking anything away from him, it is an extraordinary indictment of English rugby that they would expect a loig forward to make the transition to one of the most technically demanding back-line positions in less than one season.


He would have a huge future at 6. It is ludicrous to expect him to play 12.
 

TahDan

Cyril Towers (30)
I've got to say, the English League journos are belligerent toward Union in a way that I don't think you see anywhere else... some like to have the odd subtle jab here, but plenty of League media types happily watch and comment on Union here. Even League die hards like Matty Johns on Triple M etc will wax lyrical about Aussie back play and the brilliant management of MC.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
It's telling that we have more comments here on this forum about that article than they do on their own site.

(Okay, more with this comment.)
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
It's telling that we have more comments here on this forum about that article than they do on their own site.

(Okay, more with this comment.)


Possibly because the Burgess story is more interesting here, and why wouldn't it be?


The NRL dwarfs rugby here, whereas loig is just a minor Northern blip on the sporting radar over there.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
(puts on investigator's hat)

Triple M also claimed that Burgess is being "widely blamed" for England's loss, and followed that up with more talk about how soon he'll be back at South Sydney.

So I got curious today, did some digging. The thing is, I can't find this wide-spread blame. I can find wide-spread criticism of the so-called wide-spread blame (the article Pfitzy linked to, this Independent article, this stuff.co.nz article, that Triple M mention). But beyond one Paul Hayward article in The Telegraph, there doesn't seem to be the flood of Burgess-bashing those other sources are suggesting.

About that article: Knowing that reporters don't write their own headlines, "England vs Wales: Huge Sam Burgess gamble played to Wales' strengths at Twickenham" doesn't quite do the piece justice, but is guaranteed to get some league hackles up (and generate hits). Hayward's complaint, though, isn't that Burgess cost them the game; it's that Lancaster switched tactics when it wasn't necessary, and Burgess ended up as part of that switch. (And that lineout call was crap.)

But Hayward points out how Burgess kept his channel contained, made an effective if ugly kick, and did the job he was meant to do.
You could say those changes worked in establishing England’s early advantage but they disintegrated in the last 20 minutes. To say Burgess’ departure was responsible for that unravelling is absurd. He was not the reason England lost but his selection was an error after the thoroughly acceptable victory over Fiji, which ought to have settled things down, not prompted an upheaval.

Burgess did have to be directed where to be at times, and that's a weakness arising from inexperience, but for the most part he took that direction well and contributed.

Elsewhere it's not hard to find plenty of rugby media and players/former players pointing out that Burgess wasn't the issue. Like former Wales captain Martin Williams, who recently spoke on talkSPORT and noted that it wasn't until Burgess left that the game changed. Williams said as a Welshman, he was delighted England moved Farrell to 12, because Farrell was "bossing the game" at 10, had a great combination with Burgess, and Barritt "was struggling the whole match." (Williams was also complimentary of how Burgess went for his first start as a 12.)

Burgess made twice as many tackles as Barritt -- who bears plenty of responsibility for the dogleg Wales took advantage of to score -- and didn't give up any of the 12 England penalties that led to 21 points of converted Biggar kicks. It was right after the substitution and switch-up that Jamie Roberts was able to get really involved a play, drawing in Barritt and Watson and assisting in the Gareth Davies try. No way of knowing if Burgess would have been sucked in as well or if he could have disrupted something before Wales got wide, but if Barritt was struggling all game, the question lingers.

Haywood probably rightly draws some criticism for his inelegant description of Burgess looking as if he "won a prize to be on the pitch with the England team" and was "wandering around trying to be helpful." In his first start on the biggest stage, why wouldn't Burgess look like he won a prize? And he made the fourth most tackles of any England player, the most of any back, and didn't give away any penalties -- so yeah, he was somewhat helpful.

Yet that one article has become widespread-blame and an indication that the England rugby world blames all of league for their loss to Wales. This sounds like one of those pre-fab narratives: If England win with Burgess on the pitch, it's because league is a better game and rugby can't do anything without poaching their players. If England lose and Burgess was in the game, look for any criticism that points out a mistake, and blow that up to blaming league. It's a can't-lose narrative.

(For the record, I don't have any axes to grind here other than getting the story straight. I'm largely in agreement that Burgess was rushed in; would probably make a better 6; and the RFU flubbed it when they couldn't coordinate with Bath to help Burgess develop in a way that suited England, Bath and Burgess. But if this is the way the narrative is developing, I fully expect conspiracy theories to pop up claiming Lancaster knew he couldn't win the World Cup, so they brought in Burgess to make league a scapegoat. But right now, the scapegoat role seems to have a Robshaw-shaped silhouette -- unless you follow league media.)
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
If there is a choice between a conspiracy and a farkup it's the farkup every time.


If the Dodgers lose Lancaster is for the chop, no matter what.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
Check out another article by the same author. He must have suffered a traumatic incident as a child to make him so bitter and deluded.
http://rugbyam.co.uk/pages/league-vs-union-there-s-simply-no-debate/

Wow. Just wow.

I mean I did not see that league game he references (surprising huh?) but even as much as I dislike league for it's boredom from the little comparisons I have made between super league (I think that is the english league?) vs australian league, the super league is even a rung below (if that is possible) the australian.

It must have been an absolute cracker of a league game.

Or simply a sour bigoted rant.

Hmm, which one, which one.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Yet another loig spruiker thinks the whole world is just plain wrong.


Northern England and the east coast of Australia are right. Oh, and PNG!
 
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