The League Media

[Train Without a Station]

I would prefer league got rid of wrestling coaches, the point of the game is to have 5-6 goes at trying to score a try or finish the set as close to scoring as you can, not learning sneaky ways to hold people down or sneaky ways to get up faster to counter the sneaky wrestling in the first place.

Exactly why I cannot stand League. I think I'm in a fair place to comment, growing up playing League, being introduced by a League loving dad, I never really watched rugby until I was an adult.

I cannot stand League because it's not the game that I grew up loving. It's been tinkered my too many coaches and these changes have in some ways made it more like rugby (The conjecture in potential offences and inconsistency in rulings) the sport it derides for being too complex (oh the irony) and NFL. Right now in 2014 I would rather watch Rugby, or AFL in fact than a game of NRL.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Re - evidence the union media bashes league - that culture thing was taken from a post here about a league media person getting defensive at a union person knocking the culture of league in respect of kurtley beale defecting to league.

That was the All Blacks head coach. If you want to count him as the union media, fine, but you'd be alone in that.

Statistically, the ball is run further and passed more and further in league. There are more live plays in league and more passes per actual play. In terms of speed of the play the ball being compared to a ruck, you are kidding.[...]

Read your other post below, and if you really want to make a statistical argument, provide some actual statistics, not just what you imagine them to be. I've already posted this elsewhere on these boards, but last year I watched a Rabbitohs - Warriors game and counted how many passes per tackle were accomplished for each tackle -- tallied the whole game for both teams. The Rabbitohs averaged about half of your statistical analysis without stats below, the Warriors marginally better.

Those stats should be available someplace.

Also it should be noted that in league a lower amount of tries game may just be because a - the attack was to crap or the defence was too good. Whereas in union you can get a ZERO (or low try) game because neither team has even had a crack at scoring them, played safe plays not wanting to risk a knock on or turnover and gone for penalty goals.

So there's your No True Scotsman argument. Nice. Do you remember the recent State of Origin game #2, with that have-a-crack score of 6-4? In union you can just as easily get a lower number of tries because the defense was too good, and we've all seen low-scoring league games where neither side was having a crack and played safe. That's just a nowhere argument.

It sounds like you're watching replays of old amateur games. Maybe check out some ITM Cup -- last week only two out of 14 teams failed to score less than 21 points, and the lowest total score of both teams was 46. *YAAAWWWNN*

 

[Antony]

I think it would be handy if people recognised why they follow union and that will help you from being trolled by other sports as you wont be so defensive about it.

1 - You were bought up in the game, you like it and you couldn't be stuffed trying something else. You are happy with what you have. If so who gives a toss what other codes media say about your game.

2 - You genuinely believe every aspect of union is better then every aspect of every other game including league. - you are deluded and expect to get trolled, who knows the trolling might bring you out the insane asylum.

3 - You come from wealthy circumstances and you see union as part of your status. Again why give a f*ck what league media thinks as they are not part of your super duper status anyways.

I could go on but hopefully you get my point.

At the end of a reasonable post, this was a strange sign-off. Clearly about 90% of sports fans fall into category 4, being that they follow a bunch of sports, acknowledge the strengths of each, aren't claiming some weird 'status' (do you actually think that?) and just end up preferring the one that they prefer. Because they prefer it. Due to preference. That's it.

Maybe there's a 10% sub-set who are driven by some weird other shoulder chip. That proportion might be over-represented on the internet.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I would prefer league got rid of wrestling coaches, the point of the game is to have 5-6 goes at trying to score a try or finish the set as close to scoring as you can, not learning sneaky ways to hold people down or sneaky ways to get up faster to counter the sneaky wrestling in the first place.

But you may be right on that point. Email in a resume

Would they take a Yank with 15 years experience and two bad knees?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Clearly about 90% of sports fans fall into category 4, being that they follow a bunch of sports, acknowledge the strengths of each, aren't claiming some weird 'status' (do you actually think that?) and just end up preferring the one that they prefer. Because they prefer it. Due to preference. That's it.

That's me. There was no rugby of any sort where I grew up in the States, so there was no status to be had. I was exposed to both codes when I lived abroad, and union was the one that caught my interest.

Had this discussion with my wife about it the other day, because she's also watched both and just prefers union. Her take on it was league was easy enough to follow, but because it was so easy to follow, she grew bored more easily -- pass, hit up, pass, hit up, pass pass maybe pass, hit up, pass hit up, kick. She'd pay a bit more attention if they got inside the 20. She didn't find union all that more complicated but said since there was so much more going on (the breakdown, set pieces, no set number of tackles), it more readily kept her interest because there were more options available on every phase. She's a teacher, and compared it to just going through the motions of an easy lesson and seeing the students zone out, and being dynamic with a more complicated lesson and getting the students engaged.

And that's not her upbringing and social class talking; she's a basketball-playing daughter of a high school history from the U.S. upper midwest.

 

[Jagman]

I was brought up to be a Balmain Tigers fan. But I can remember the day I decided I would never follow Rugby League. I was watching the Footy Show some time in the mid to late 90s and they had a segment where a middle aged woman sucked on a middle aged mans big toe as if she were doing you know what. It actually made me feel ill but more to the point I just could not affiliate myself with league at all after that. Once I became an adult I ended up in a group of friends who were mad about rugby and it slowly grew on me. But I agree that it is mostly a case of each to his own.

With regard to the specifics of rugby I actually prefer that rugby kick the ball away on first phase (depending on field position) rather than sit through the free set of 5 tackles with one off passes and then kick anyway. And what's wrong with contestable kicks or the kicking contests that often occur? At least the play is throwing out questions that the viewer wants to see resolved. This is the element that creates suspense and therefore excitement.

At the ruck this is very much apparent. The suspense of any union play continues and often heightens after the impact of the tackle because the viewer still questions whether possession will be retained. In a league tackle the question really is only, how much impact will he make? but once the impact is absorbed the ball carrier (still standing up most of the time) is brought to ground, lied upon and then he plays the ball. I think you'll find if you time a league tackle from the moment the impact is finished to the time the half takes the ball it is greater than the time the ball is in play. The effect, from someone used to watching Union, is continual short losses of suspense.

On the other hand to be fair the regular penalties also kill suspense in Union but unfortunately you can't have it's contestable nature without people pushing the rules and generating penalties.

 

[qwerty51]

I know what you mean, when I watch my team play league I switch off for the first 30 seconds of their set because tackles 1-4 are the same shit, 1 off hit-ups gaining 5-10metres each time. The only time anything interesting happens is the kick which if not in field position range they kick it dead or out and then just do a cross-field bomb which results in someone knocking it on. Repeat 80 times.

 

[Pfitzy]

League setup for a scrum isn't as slow as union, but hardly as quick as everyone thinks. There is a lot of fucking around as players wander over for a breather. Thankfully its short to execute because it is, as several legends of the game have discussed at length, an embarrassment. It doesn't require any skill or teamwork to execute, and it isn't used as an attacking weapon.

A League set of 6 takes about 40-50 seconds to run, from the time the fullback runs the ball back to the time the inevitable kick is made. On average you have about 50-60 completed sets in a game (taking time out for scoring tries, setting up scrums, penalties, etc), about 80% of which are 4 hitups off the ruck, one play involving more than one pass and then a kick.

So in league you have a lot of passing, but its the same pass nearly every time - one off the ruck to a forward hitting it up to try and breach the gain line. You will have about 40 kicks in play as a minimum (generally speaking), which is fairly consistent, and either a shitload more or a shitload less than a Union game, depending on the conditions. Most of these kicks are simple end plays to score a try or get out of danger, because kicking it back to the opposition is losing possession.

One thing both games share is that possession is the means of winning the game, more often than not.

I've made the analogy before, and I'll make it again:

League is like McDonalds. Its consistent. Its a product with nutrients in it, and you can live on it.

Union is like a restaurant. Sometimes the food is poor. Sometimes it is gourmet.

These days, the NRL is like the EPL - watch the highlights for some amazing stuff, but sitting through an entire match is pretty torturous.

 

[Dctarget]

So back to the scrums, if it's just a mutual agreement between everyone, why doesn't one time lets say in the SOO renege on that agreement when they're a try down with a minute to go, scrum and get the ball back etc? Surely they wouldn't just let the scrum happen, opposition puts the ball out, game over season over? Am I missing something..


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[I like to watch]

I have seen some teams try this,but the opposing scrum disintegrates so poorly that the scrum was required to reset.
So rather than winning the ball, they just soak up the remaining time.
They are more chance winning the ball in the wrestle in the tackle than in a scrum.

 

[papabear]

To be fair to rugby league it has acknowledge it has to much wrestle and through various parts of the season has more heavily enforced slowing down ptb tactics like the defender keeping his hands/body on the ball after the tackle.

SOO 2 was 1 try that is correct but the point remains.

One thing I disagree with is the assessment of league being 4 hit ups and a kick or 4 hit ups 1 play and a kick.

Good league teams are always looking to score and always try and execute a game plan that keeps the ball in space and momentum moving forward. It is to easy to counter the 4-5 hitup field possession game made famous by the broncos back in the day just by gang tackling the heck out of the first receiver slowing it down so much. Hence teams since stuarts roosters started doing that in 2002 have different game plans.

IMO it is due to lack of understanding what they are trying to achieve.

Also I think if you count the one pass hit up or no pass hit up again, in union the percentage would be similar to or higher to the other type of ball in hand plays (non kicks)

 

[mxyzptlk]

I've made the analogy before, and I'll make it again:

League is like McDonalds. Its consistent. Its a product with nutrients in it, and you can live on it.

Union is like a restaurant. Sometimes the food is poor. Sometimes it is gourmet.

That's a great analogy.

 

[wamberal]

It never fails to amuse me when loig supporters criticise our game for victories that are built on goals.

When there are 14 players on the field (as in Sevens) more tries are scored per ten minutes of play than in any loig game.

That's because there are only 14 players, rather than 26.


Similarly, when there 26 players, you are likely to have more tries scored than if you have 30.

And, as others have pointed out, the sheer hypocrisy that surrounds the fairly routine low-scoring loig game, or the game won by a (gasp) penalty goal or field goal, is wonderful to behold.

Let's face it, if loig was a serious sport it would be played seriously at the universities and top state and private schools.

 

[terry j]

Ok, so (don't ask me why, frankly I have no idea) I finally took one for the team.

I will NOT be doing it again I might add. You just gotta put your head down and 'do the job' assigned, no matter how hard. A bit like a disaster in a huge block of flats with all the toilets blocked up, and you are the plumber.

you just gotta put your head down and cop the shit.

SOOOoooo, I watched the second half of bulldogs vs tigers and kept the stats. It was surprisingly easy to do, just write down the number of passes each tackle, start a new line when the other team gets the ball, and circle the pass number when a kick occurs.

Some raw data, I have it here in front of me if there are questions later, but for now we will just go to the summary.

Raw gross figures. 179 tackles (I presume have not got any 'crazy' definition of a tackle). For that number of tackles, there were 223 passes.

This gives us a ration of passes/tackles of 1.24. (there are a few 'seven' tackles, I presume that is the zero tackle in play. That was not around when I played the game)

Also, the number of kicks (excluding penalties etc, ie kicks in play) was 22.

I then watched the first half of canterbury vs northland.

gross figures, 116 tackles, 176 passes, giving a ratio of 1.52 passes/tackle ( again, tackle here is a ruck, maul whatever)

Total number of kicks in that half was 19.

Only when I kept noticing did I start to note the numbers, so not fully accurate, I saw 13 play the balls where the player did not rake it back with his foot! He just stepped over it, or 'made the attempt' but not the contact. I mean there are not an awful lot of skills required in the game, but you woulda thought something as basic as this could be done by most competent athletes?

I did not keep count of how many scrums there were (and there are not as many in league as rugby, granted) BUT oddly enough, there were two resets anyway! I mean jeez louise, does it really fuckin matter with league scrums? The ref gets all pedantic and resets it? For WHAT I wonder. And pfitzy was right, they actually do take more time than you would imagine.

The ITM game had ten scrums in the half, with one reset.

General thoughts. There is an obvious difference in the number of tackles, and if you think about it there *should* be more tackles in league. If only because 'there is not much else' in the game.

In the rugby there were many lineouts (note, not all take time, there are quite a few quick throws nowadays), as noted more scrums, then we have the rucks and mauls.

One thing that occurred to me was that in league, when you are attacking and in their 22, that is when the greater number of passes occur. When you are defending and getting out of your 22, that is when it is one off the play the ball and one pass per tackle.

A lot of time in rugby, when you are attacking (thru your forwards mainly I guess) in the 22 is when the ratio comes down to one pass/tackle, as you get the forwards hitting up close to the line.

Unless of course you go to the backs then.

Strangely enough, I COULD put myself 'into the mindset of a leaguie' and (I think) see what their problem is. Maybe that could only come about by watching the two back to back.

I can understand how a leaguie might think it slower (even tho it aint, refer to the raw stats above) because the tempo of our game does change quite a lot. But that can only come about if you think the constant repetition of pass/tackle constitutes the essence of a good game.

I don't, I like that we have so many different options, I love it (as happened in the ITM game) that there can be looseheads as well as a pushover try.

Anyway, it was good to be able to put myself 'into their mindset', I (think) I can see their objections, quiet obviously I do not agree with them, but still to get a better understanding of the opposing view is always valuable.

In any case, the raw stats above do NOT show (as I suspected) that rugby is slower, and bearing in mind the many extra dimensions involved in a game of rugby that do not appear in those stats, it is a faster and more varied game (for my tastes at least)

 

[Sully]

You mean you actually checked out the difference rather than imagining the stats and deciding which passed more. That's revolutionary!

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[terry j]

You mean you actually checked out the difference rather than imagining the stats and deciding which passed more. That's revolutionary!

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revolutionary, and painful. I don't want to do it again in a hurry.

Still, I 'guessed' that due to the rules there would be more kicks in league, and there was. Pretty close tho, and could be very different on any other given day.

The things about kicks, in rugby you have the 'get out of the danger zone' kicks, just boot the skin off them. the rest is the go for field position, either get touch or some tactical kick behind the line.

In league, it seems to be 'your number of tackles is up, so kick it else you'll just hand it to the opposition'.

The difference in intent became very clear when watching back to back.

Tho there was a time in the league game where a guy made a break, dashed upfield and then did a tactical kick ahead which very nearly resulted in a try. I must admit I waS SURPRISED (sorry) to see that, I have hardly noticed those type of kicks in league before. Most kicks are on the fifth, or if you are very sneaky an earlier tackle, and usually a bomb for an attempted try.

Was it Peard that introduced the bomb at parramatta all those years ago? Anyway, he has a lot to answer for. How decidedly dull.

 

[Pfitzy]

There is no kicking out of danger in league because there is no contest for possession. Stripping the ball one-on-one is a low-percentage play so it's easier to gang tackle the fullback.

It's also why the league stats for run metres are so skewed -fullbacks get big starts here because they might make 30 metres on the first tackle running a kick back

 

[mxyzptlk]

Good league teams are always looking to score and always try and execute a game plan that keeps the ball in space and momentum moving forward. [...]IMO it is due to lack of understanding what they are trying to achieve.

I think that statement could apply to your understanding of union as well. Do you really think that the kicks in union are just because someone got bored and decided he didn't want to play anymore? Or is it maybe possible they're trying to kick behind the defense to set up a better field position from which you can use your defense as an attacking weapon, put pressure on the offense in a compacted space of the field, and force a turnover (because they can actually compete for the ball) and score?

Nah... must be because no one in union likes to score, despite the All Blacks just putting 51 on the Wallabies; why (as I said before) all of the combined scores of the last ITM cup round totalled at least 40, and the avg. total score was 59; the lowest combined score of the first round of the NRC was 34, and the avg. total score of all games was 60. That's because they're uninterested in scoring.

 

[terry j]

Nah. must be because no one in union likes to score,

Yes, that was one of the points put forward a page or so ago was it not?

I testes one of the canards by checking the stats, another (even easier) thing to check is to go thru last years (because this is not finished yet) super comp vs NRL comp, and simply tally the number of tries scored on a per game basis.

Have no real idea of how the numbers would stack up, but I AM certain it would put to bed this stupid idea 'no attack in rugby, it is all scored by kicks'.

There would have to be another taker for that I'm afraid.

 

[Pfitzy]

After that stupid coight told me to enjoy the kickfest last night, we got a 5 tries to 3 result. Not bad.