The Israel Folau saga

[Ignoto]

Interesting take on the saga by Genia https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...u/news-story/5be4cf9d9d59697702e506ba45e444e9

Even if Folau is found not to have breached any CoC’s, that’s two senior players saying they don’t want him around. Hard to come back from that.

 

[Slim 293]

Are you being serious, or joking?

In case of the former, this is what I think they did wrong:

They failed to include any contractual restraints when renegotiating with him after he had just displayed behaviour very much against the company ideals.

Knowing that he was predisposed to doing this they failed to put in place specific plans in case he did do it again (as shown by them not actually following their own procedures at the start of the whole mess - it clearly just came as a shock to them)

Not having any specific plans in place, they then failed to follow their own standard procedures for recalcitrant behaviour (by saying they were going to fire the guy before they had even spoken to him - just try and do that in your own workplace to one of your staff next time you feel the need to get rid of someone and see how that goes).

Then they followed up with actual procedures they should have followed in the first instance and instigated the code of conduct tribunal thing - which is now tainted by the management stating that they want the person fired.

There's just a whole heap of red flags there that signify that they mishandled this badly.

Here's what I think they did right: They clearly stated their corporate ideals succinctly and separated themselves from his comments. Their response was pretty quick. I also think their standard procedures statement (that they should have followed*prior* to saying they wanted to fire the guy) was good because it laid out what breach they wanted to investigate, the *potential* penalty for that breach and the procedures they would follow to get to the bottom of the sordid issue. Saying that the maximum penalty was termination of contract at this point is totally fine because that is different to saying you want to terminate the contract (which taints the investigation process).

Nothing in what they have done has given me any kind of faith that they had any clue what they were doing in this process until after they had dug out their workplace procedure manual over the weekend and had a read of it - when it should have been the very first document they referred to after the already prepared "In_of_Izzy.pdf" file.

TLDR: no i think they acted poorly for supposedly experienced senior staff

Yeah, nah.............

The contractual stuff was discussed on the last page so I won’t go over that again...........

RA attempted to contact Folau following the tweets.........

He went MIA..........

RA then issued a statement indicating their intention to terminate their contract, and since then have been following the protocols.

They’ve done everything by the book.

 

[Adam84]

Youth suicide and suicide in general is a serious and complex topic and there are many, many contributing factors. Trying to reduce it to a few lines in an internet post is highly ill-advised.

Don’t twist my words like this, at no point did I reduce youth suicide to just a few lines in an internet post.

I pointed out that the suicide rate in gay youth is a statistical outlier and over represented, rather then twisting my words how about you start addressing the issue and facing up to the fact that social pressure and stigma is a significant factor in this statistic. We need to stop telling young gay youth that what they are, who they are, is wrong or something to be embarrassed or ashamed of. That’s why Rugby Australia has an Inclusiveness Policy, to stamp out discrimination and homophobia, it’s also why folau has no spot in the code.

 

[gel]

Yeah, nah.....

The contractual stuff was discussed on the last page so I won’t go over that again.....

RA attempted to contact Folau following the tweets...

He went MIA....

RA then issued a statement indicating their intention to terminate their contract, and since then have been following the protocols.

They’ve done everything by the book.

Wrong.

 

[Slim 293]

Wrong.

Oh, OK!!!

 

[RugbyReg]

This isn't the Professional Players Code of Conduct - that is a separate document, not public-facing

so? This is the RA Code of Conduct. Which starts with the very words:

"Rugby AU is committed to promoting and strengthening the positive image of Rugby and its Participants in Australia. To do so, we all need to be committed to living our core values of Passion, Integrity, Discipline, Respect and Teamwork.

This Code aims to ensure that Rugby Australia’s core values, good reputation and positive behaviours are maintained by its players, coaches, administrators, volunteers, parents and spectators by providing a simple set of rules that assist in delivering a safe, fair and inclusive environment for all.

This Code also seeks to deter conduct that could damage the game of Rugby by impairing public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of matches and competitions or in the integrity and good character of Participants."

 

[Merrow]

The teenager can repent if he thinks Folau is right, or he can say fuck you, like most teenagers would

Pretty sure that if the teenager was in a confused headspace, which is highly likely, comments such as Folau’s could be pretty damaging actually. Have a listen to the Rugby Ruckus podcast from the weekend, where they were talking to someone that struggled to come out in as gay in the rugby community and see if you still think the same way.

 

[I like to watch]

Yeah, nah.....

The contractual stuff was discussed on the last page so I won’t go over that again.....

RA attempted to contact Folau following the tweets...

He went MIA....

RA then issued a statement indicating their intention to terminate their contract, and since then have been following the protocols.

They’ve done everything by the book.

More than that, there’s zero chance Raelene pumped out that statement without getting legal advice.


Here’s an interesting article about it the issue.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/rug...egal-and-moral-minefield-20190417-p51f3m.html

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Interesting take on the saga by Genia https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...u/news-story/5be4cf9d9d59697702e506ba45e444e9

Even if Folau is found not to have breached any CoC’s, that’s two senior players saying they don’t want him around. Hard to come back from that.

Yeah don't think Genia could have been clearer about that. Izzy will likely never play for Australia again, at least while the current leadership team are in place. This could actually galvanise the group in an odd way.

 

[gel]

Oh, OK!!!

That's all you deserve. I am happy to discuss with others.

 

[Kenny Powers]

FitzSimons makes little sense about most subjects.

Here is an interesting one FitzSimons and Alan Jones actually work for the same corporate group, they are work colleagues.

Peter if anyone climbed into their work colleague as you do to Alan Jones in a public forum they would be terminated as well. That's the media bubble for you and their lack of self awareness.

(PS. I am sure Alan Jones gives as good as he gets.)

 

[Rebelsfan]

Don’t twist my words like this, at no point did I reduce youth suicide to just a few lines in an internet post.

I pointed out that the suicide rate in gay youth is a statistical outlier and over represented, rather then twisting my words how about you start addressing the issue and facing up to the fact that social pressure and stigma is a significant factor in this statistic. We need to stop telling young gay youth that what they are, who they are, is wrong or something to be embarrassed or ashamed of. That’s why Rugby Australia has an Inclusiveness Policy, to stamp out discrimination and homophobia, it’s also why folau has no spot in the code.

I am very sad for the gay youth who feel suicidal. I have looked up the statistics and according to https://lgbtihealth.org.au/statistics/ gay youth are five times more likely to commit suicide. The site states that these young people are living healthy and happy lives. There is an argument to suggest that these people suffer from some mental illness - not related to their gayness - but coincidentally - and this could quite likely be the cause of the high rate. I don't think Izzy's comments contribute to mental illness.

 

[KOB1987]

Here’s an interesting article about it the issue.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/rug...egal-and-moral-minefield-20190417-p51f3m.html

That article is where I'm at on the issue and is why I'm stepping aside from the conversation. It's a minefield.

Just a few points before I do:
- re Cheika saying he won't pick Folau again, you need to watch the interview to see the context of that comment.
- I want to see the substance of his defence before passing judgement and calling him a hypocrite.
- There appears to be very little if any condemnation of him from the actual gay community. Most of it seems to be coming from self appointed spokespersons, mainly left wing activists and news outlets. I'm hearing the general consensus is that the average gay could give a flying f*** about his religion's views.
- of course Genia, Hooper etc have to be critical of his actions. They all also say it's out of character.

Later #2.

 

[RebelYell]

so? This is the RA Code of Conduct. Which starts with the very words:

"Rugby AU is committed to promoting and strengthening the positive image of Rugby and its Participants in Australia. To do so, we all need to be committed to living our core values of Passion, Integrity, Discipline, Respect and Teamwork.

This Code aims to ensure that Rugby Australia’s core values, good reputation and positive behaviours are maintained by its players, coaches, administrators, volunteers, parents and spectators by providing a simple set of rules that assist in delivering a safe, fair and inclusive environment for all.

This Code also seeks to deter conduct that could damage the game of Rugby by impairing public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of matches and competitions or in the integrity and good character of Participants."

Not having a go mate. Just explaining that it isn't the Code of Conduct under which Israel's case will be heard.

 

[tragic]

- There appears to be very little if any condemnation of him from the actual gay community. Most of it seems to be coming from self appointed spokespersons, mainly left wing activists and news outlets. I'm hearing the general consensus is that the average gay could give a flying f*** about his religions views.

Later #2.

Interesting isn’t it
That’s been my observation as well - and the basis behind my comments about being offended on behalf of others and choosing which subgroup is most worthy of that outrage.
Seems ironic when some prominent members of that minority group themselves don’t take issue (see link below)
Guess there is two sides to every argument after all.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby...s/news-story/fc021b31d9e379b8b26f2cedb20c5a27

 

[MarkJ]

I suspect Tim Wilson would represent a minority view in that ‘minority group’. And IPA members like him must be tying themselves in ideological knots over this one, normally they’re all for the rights of an employer to sack a worker

 

[Braveheart81]

Just a few points before I do:
- re Cheika saying he won't pick Folau again, you need to watch the interview to see the context of that comment.
- There appears to be very little if any condemnation of him from the actual gay community. Most of it seems to be coming from self appointed spokespersons, mainly left wing activists and news outlets. I'm hearing the general consensus is that the average gay could give a flying f*** about his religion's views.

On those two points, I certainly got the impression from Cheika that it wasn't a completely closed case in terms of being able to pick Folau again. If the situation changed and he was confident that Folau would be 100% with the team and not causing issues like this then he could be picked again (those words weren't said but that's my impression).

Obviously whether or not you could trust that to be the case is another story entirely.

On the second one, I have seen comments from various people on twitter that are vocal advocates of marriage equality etc. from when the story first broke that it was a welcome situation that for once they didn't have to take the fight up themselves to call out Folau's comments and demand action.

In terms of advancing on this issue I think it is an important milestone where some self-moderation can take place rather than relying on the wronged party to show that whatever happened caused harm before there is acceptance that something was inappropriate.

 

[barbarian]

Pretty sure that if the teenager was in a confused headspace, which is highly likely, comments such as Folau’s could be pretty damaging actually. Have a listen to the Rugby Ruckus podcast from the weekend, where they were talking to someone that struggled to come out in as gay in the rugby community and see if you still think the same way.

I'm uncomfortable with the views of some on here that have said 'young gay teens will be OK, they should just ignore him like I have'.

Telling a historically disenfranchised group they should just 'brush it off' because it didn't offend you is not the best way to approach this situation IMO.

The thing is, I don't really know how these comments would affect those people. I'm not one of them, nor do I really know any. We have seen some evidence that it does cause problems (eg the bloke on the Rugby Ruckus), and I'm happy to give those people the benefit of the doubt here, rather than the words of a few cowboys on an internet forum.
.

 

[Derpus]

I'm uncomfortable with the views of some on here that have said 'young gay teens will be OK, they should just ignore him like I have'.

Telling a historically disenfranchised group they should just 'brush it off' because it didn't offend you is not the best way to approach this situation IMO.

The thing is, I don't really know how these comments would affect those people. I'm not one of them, nor do I really know any. We have seen some evidence that it does cause problems (eg the bloke on the Rugby Ruckus), and I'm happy to give those people the benefit of the doubt here, rather than the words of a few cowboys on an internet forum.
.

Personally, i don't think that's as bad as saying 'hey these gay people aren't actually even offended' based on, presumably, a cursory glance at social media.

 

[Ignoto]

Seems ironic when some prominent members of that minority group themselves don’t take issue (see link below)

Yet there are plenty of people in the Rugby community who have explicitly said the opposite;

James Haskell - https://external-preview.redd.it/5y...bp&s=fcdcf374ac5a954a663167b275579d9a986bc453

Nigel Owens - https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...hurtful-comments-says-gay-referee-nigel-owens

The International Gay Rugby - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...welcomes-response-israel-folau-billy-vunipola