The Israel Folau saga

[Ignoto]

I hope RA rethink that position and agree to a lesser (but still severe) penalty.

Maybe 50% of 1 years pay as a fine. $500K and 6 months on the sidelines, Plus lots of community work.

And Izzy gets to play again for Tahs and Wobs.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is RA's first port of call. Suspend Folau for the rest of the Super Rugby season. Send him to be invovled with the Gay community, attend AA meetings etc and allow him to see first hand what it's like. Send him to club land until the Rugby Championship and see if he shows any remorse.

But that's if Folau's tears aren't crocodile ones and that he has a genuine desire to play for his country.

 

[gel]

What issue of law do you think they will appeal on? I can't see any issue that will cause the NSWCA to grant leave to appeal to the HC.

That they publicly stated they were going to fire someone prior to hearing him out (or following their own procedures of giving him a tribunal hearing) thereby tainting the potential outcome of any dismissal process.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I wouldn't be surprised if that is RA's first port of call. Suspend Folau for the rest of the Super Rugby season. Send him to be invovled with the Gay community, attend AA meetings etc and allow him to see first hand what it's like. Send him to club land until the Rugby Championship and see if he shows any remorse.

But that's if Folau's tears aren't crocodile ones and that he has a genuine desire to play for his country.

Haven't they already stated what they intend to do?
They could have gone down that path if Izzy showed any remorse, or even accepted it was a mistake. The post is still up on his Instagram!

If Izzy did stay, how long until post #3?

 

[Ignoto]

"After consultation with our friends and members of the LGBT community, we will be willing to continue our employment of Israel after he pays a monetary fine and spends a period of time learning from how his actions impacts others. We will support Israel as he takes the opportunity to grow as an individual and understand how his faith and our society exist harmoniously".

There's plenty of ways to save face here for both RA, Chieka and any team mates. BUT it will take more than words from Folau and I doubt the people pulling the strings from his church will let him do so.

 

[KOB1987]

I wouldn't be surprised if that is RA's first port of call. Suspend Folau for the rest of the Super Rugby season. Send him to be invovled with the Gay community, attend AA meetings etc and allow him to see first hand what it's like. Send him to club land until the Rugby Championship and see if he shows any remorse.

But that's if Folau's tears aren't crocodile ones and that he has a genuine desire to play for his country.

I think it's the most appropriate course of action. After the fine he's then playing club rugby on a heavily reduced income and has to earn his right to play both for the Tahs and the Wallabies. It could also be the cheapest course of action for RA, if he offends again it would result in instant termination and thus no payout, whereas if they terminate him outright now it's going to result in a lengthy and costly legal battle.

Haven't they already stated what they intend to do?

They did, but don't forget the 'compelling mitigating factors' outclause, plus the press release at the time appeared to be a way to induce Izzy to contact them. We don't know what those compelling factors are, but you can been rest assured his legal team will have found many.

It's important to note this is not a breach of contract, its a breach of the Code of Conduct. Whilst it's been decided it was a high level breach of that code, and that can result in a termination of his contract, there definitely may exist compelling mitigating factors in committing that breach, i.e. his religious beliefs.

 

[Set piece magic]

"After consultation with our friends and members of the LGBT community, we will be willing to continue our employment of Israel after he pays a monetary fine and spends a period of time learning from how his actions impacts others. We will support Israel as he takes the opportunity to grow as an individual and understand how his faith and our society exist harmoniously".



There's plenty of ways to save face here for both RA, Chieka and any team mates. BUT it will take more than words from Folau and I doubt the people pulling the strings from his church will let him do so.

I'd fully support this. I think one of the thing's we need to remember is that to get along in this world we have to understand each other

Point blank firing Folau doesn't achieve this - as I predicted- it turns him into a martyr

But sending him in, making him front up to actual human beings and engage with them - well it might just show him his beliefs are all wrong and nobody chooses their sexuality

This is an important nuance for how to deal with these issues, in my opinion - censuring them as a thought crime is unproductive.

 

[Derpus]

He should be fired for breaching the code of conduct twice. End of story.

 

[KOB1987]

He should be fired for breaching the code of conduct twice. End of story.

It would actually only be the beginning of it.

 

[Derpus]

It would actually only be the beginning of it.

Nothing but afters. He's done in rugby because he broke the rules. Sure he'll sue. We all would, because why not? Probably settle it at some point and come away with something.

Hardly a story though.

 

[James Pettifer]

I'd fully support this. I think one of the thing's we need to remember is that to get along in this world we have to understand each other

Point blank firing Folau doesn't achieve this - as I predicted- it turns him into a martyr

But sending him in, making him front up to actual human beings and engage with them - well it might just show him his beliefs are all wrong and nobody chooses their sexuality

This is an important nuance for how to deal with these issues, in my opinion - censuring them as a thought crime is unproductive.

He is a repeat offender and has shown no public contrition for the impact his statements have on the LGBTIQ community or on rugby at large.

He has had heavy involvement in the Bingham cup in the past. And here is his comments on the comments made between the Brumbies and Waratahs back in 2015

ISRAEL FOLAU: Rugby's a game of inclusion where everyone is welcomed in and so, you know, me personally, I don't think there's any of that within this club and also within the game of rugby.

His views have clearly changed.

He breached the code of conduct. Was informed that it was not appropriate. Signed a new contract. Less than 12 months later he breaches the code of conduct on exactly the same thing on the same issue. If I did that at my work, I doubt that I would have a job. Noting that if I did exactly what he did, I would be breaching the code of conduct of my company and most likely would be fired and I'm not one of the public faces of the company.

 

[Braveheart81]

They did, but don't forget the 'compelling mitigating factors' outclause

I think it's important to note that all the parties that have spoken out against Folau from an official stance (RA, Cheika, Hooper) left the door open that the situation wasn't irreparable.

Many have said that Cheika said he wouldn't select Folau again but that isn't correct.

"I think as it stands right now, considering what I just said you wouldn’t be able to because going to the World Cup, which is a tournament where I’ve been lucky enough to go to one where we go together in that tournament, the team, which he was a big part of," he said.

That to me suggests that if the situation with Folau changes and Cheika feels like he could be part of a united team then he could be picked.

 

[Braveheart81]

He is a repeat offender and has shown no public contrition for the impact his statements have on the LGBTIQ community or on rugby at large.

This is a huge part of it in my opinion.

I think we'd absolutely be in a different place right now if Folau had acknowledged the mistake again, got in contact with RA and promised not to do it again.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

He is a repeat offender and has shown no public contrition for the impact his statements have on the LGBTIQ community or on rugby at large.

He has had heavy involvement in the Bingham cup in the past. And here is his comments on the comments made between the Brumbies and Waratahs back in 2015

ISRAEL FOLAU: Rugby's a game of inclusion where everyone is welcomed in and so, you know, me personally, I don't think there's any of that within this club and also within the game of rugby.

His views have clearly changed.

He breached the code of conduct. Was informed that it was not appropriate. Signed a new contract. Less than 12 months later he breaches the code of conduct on exactly the same thing on the same issue. If I did that at my work, I doubt that I would have a job. Noting that if I did exactly what he did, I would be breaching the code of conduct of my company and most likely would be fired and I'm not one of the public faces of the company.

Sad really as no winners but for me calling this a high level breach was a logical conclusion. Glad the hate towards Israel also died down as extreme reactions just create same sort of problems in my view. Yes I don't agree with his views or that appropriate aired in social media and hence yes after first warning is a sackable offence. But as most of players have said many struggle to reconcile with Israel the person who comes across otherwise outside of this as very likeable and humble guy and darn good footy player. But head told me from day one when this happened Israel has to go and nothing changed there for me. And whilst his own doing still feel for him in some part as certainly the cost to him will be high and personally feel sorry for him having this outdated views then feeling of any anger or hatred towards him.

 

[James Pettifer]

Sad really as no winners but for me calling this a high level breach was a logical conclusion. Glad the hate towards Israel also died down as extreme reactions just create same sort of problems in my view. Yes I don't agree with his views or that appropriate aired in social media and hence yes after first warning is a sackable offence. But as most of players have said many struggle to reconcile with Israel the person who comes across otherwise outside of this as very likeable and humble guy and darn good footy player. But head told me from day one when this happened Israel has to go and nothing changed there for me. And whilst his own doing still feel for him in some part as certainly the cost to him will be high and personally feel sorry for him having this outdated views then feeling of any anger or hatred towards him.

Social media has a lot of losers and very few winners. Many people have had their lives or careers ruined due to social media posts. In some cases they were bad jokes taken out of context from non-public figures.

 

[Set piece magic]

This is a huge part of it in my opinion.

I think we'd absolutely be in a different place right now if Folau had acknowledged the mistake again, got in contact with RA and promised not to do it again.

Fair point

 

[sidelineview]

All these suggestions to "cure" Folau and lead him onto the "right" path ...!? Enlighten him and teach him a lesson.

It sounds like the "cures" prescribed for gay people from the good old dark days.

Let's cure him if his anti social evil beliefs. He's not fitting into our modern society!

You cant cure him of his faith and religious beliefs and he'd probably say God's pulling his strings; not anyone from his church.

He may not feel like a leper who needs healing to appease members of society.

Maybe he's had extensive experience dealing with all sorts of people from within our society. I'm not sure of his hustory; whether he was a knock around bloke.

He wont renounce his beliefs.
As far as remorse and compassion are concerned, read the article he wrote again.

Who knows what will unfold from here on in. It might be settled early or it could be the start of a lengthy legal process.

 

[Braveheart81]

All these suggestions to "cure" Folau and lead him onto the "right" path .!? Enlighten him and teach him a lesson.

It sounds like the "cures" prescribed for gay people from the good old dark days.

Let's cure him if his anti social evil beliefs. He's not fitting into our modern society!

You appear to be making up a whole lot of things no one has really said.

All anyone has ever asked him to do is not publicly vilify protected minorities. He can believe what he wants.

 

[Strewthcobber]

It's important to note this is not a breach of contract, its a breach of the Code of Conduct. Whilst it's been decided it was a high level breach of that code, and that can result in a termination of his contract, there definitely may exist compelling mitigating factors in committing that breach, i.e. his religious beliefs.

These are the mitigating/aggravating factors the committee will use - they're directly from the Code of Conduct

(i) the presence and timing of an acknowledgement of culpability/ wrong-doing by the Participant or Rugby Body (as applicable);
(ii) the Participant’s or Rugby Body’s (as applicable) disciplinary record and/or good character;
(iii) the conduct prior to and at the hearing;
(iv) remorse for the conduct including the timing of such remorse including any steps taken to rectify any wrongdoing;
(v) any other aggravating and/or mitigating factors adduced by the Participant, the Rugby Body, or another person.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

You appear to be making up a whole lot of things no one has really said.

All anyone has ever asked him to do is not publicly vilify protected minorities. He can believe what he wants.

Just not articulate it right?

 

[Braveheart81]

Just not articulate it right?

With no repercussions, correct.

His religious beliefs don't give him the right to vilify others with no consequences.