The Ideal NSW Schools Comp

[Hugh Jarse]

Rugby Schools Invited To ASRU Forum


The Australian Schools Rugby Union has announced that a discussion forum will be held at the University of Queensland on 23rd October.

This initiative comes at the suggestion and request of a number of schools. The purpose of the Forum is to discuss, consult and plan for aspects of schools rugby in Australia. Hence, all schools playing rugby are invited to attend.

Representatives of Senior Rugby bodies and Convenors of Schools Sporting Groups or Associations are also invited.

One of the drivers of this day is the increasingly disparate rugby seasons that occur amongst school groups and between states – producing a need for more and earlier planning and consultation.

The purpose of the day is to provide information and have discussions on:

• The aims and purposes of rugby at schools and representative levels planning and dates for local, regional, state and national schools rugby events over the next two or three years.
• The interaction with, and support from, state and national senior rugby bodies.
• Safety issues and relevant laws and coaching.
• The growth of Sevens rugby as it becomes an Olympic sport.
• Other matters as may be suggested by schools

The day will be a facilitated one – to help ensure that there is consultation and discussion as widely and effectively as might be possible. To assist with planning Schools are asked to respond as below, indicating the attendance, or otherwise of representatives from your school.

Details
Tuesday 23rd October
9.30 a.m. to 4.00 p.m.
St Leo’s College, College Rd, University of Queensland, St Lucia, Brisbane
Morning/afternoon tea and lunch provided
Participants would be responsible for their own travel costs.

Source: http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/

STRONG BOOKINGS SO FAR WITH OVER 70 ALREADY REGISTERED​

****STILL TIME TO BOOK ****​

​

Bookings so far include all school sectors​

— State, Catholic and Independent​

— as well as Representatives from the Senior Rugby bodies​

​

An oportunity to shape the future. Encourage your School Sports staff to send a representative along.

Any ideas you have should be forwarded to your school rugby or sports masters.

 

[Newbie]

George,

... ... ... ... ...

I still believe you would struggle to get CCC involvement (the league tradition is too strong)

I concur with Whateva!
A
Admittedly the NSWCCC system contains a potential wealth of rugby talent (and are the current national league champions in both age groups). To get them on board there would have to be sustained campaign!

 

[doondoonsley]

I have been considering this idea for a while now (Sydney schools rugby comp.)
I think it's a good idea for 5 reasons. 1. It allows schools to get exposure to different styles of rugby e.g. GPS schools getting exposure to ISA schools, 2. It allows the us to determine best Rugby school in Sydney, 3. It allows for more competitive rugby - better for the players, spectators etc, 4. Helps promote rugby in places where it's not the most popular sport e.g. CCC schools, and 5. Allows for players to play more rugby.
I agree with all these points, and do not oppose the idea, however, for the sake of keeping it fair I will just mention that from what I've heard, and what I can think of, the main point against this idea is preservation of tradition which to be honest generally comes from GPS crowds.

I have a different proposal, however, to what George has proposed. He has some great ideas, but here are mine. By the way I would like to thank him for all the information he posted regarding the grouping of schools - I have been trying to find that information for a long time (I have attempted to draw up this kind of competition before). I would just like to note that my idea is probably too complicated and therefore would be hard to execute, however I think it would be a cool way to do things.

The way I think it should work is as follows:
1. Before I begin I would just like to outline that I believe there should a premiership for every team in every age group (from the A's down to E's, or in the case of the Opens 1sts through to 8ths).
2. As with most proposals like this, all schools are divided up into different divisions within one competition. I think that, as each team will be competing for a premiership, each grade (e.g. A, B, C through to E) is made up of divisions, a bit like the SJRU system. For each grade the teams in each division are completely different and based on how good the teams are. Teams can be relegated/promoted through the divisions, keeping each division as competitive as possible.
3. This is the crucial point that makes the system satisfy (as best as possible) both sides of the fence. Bear with me as I try my best to explain it. As the Rugby season will be competed over two terms the competition should be divided as such. The calendar begins with trials in term 2, which give a rough outline as to the division each team should be in. Once the divisions have been worked out (after the trials are done) the schedule is worked out. The best way I can explain my system is my using an example, so please forgive me for using GPS as an example as it's the comp. I am most familiar with. The way I think it should work is that in term 2 all GPS schools play only non-GPS schools, e.g. Joeys will only play non-GPS schools within their division. At the conclusion of term 2, all GPS schools in say Div. 1 would have only played non-GPS schools,. Then, it term 3 the normal competitions resume, so all CAS schools play each other as per usual, as do all ISA, GPS, and other schools. At the completion of the GPS/CAS/CCC etc season, the points that a team obtained from their regular season is combined with their points from the term 2 comp. and the team that finishes with the most points wins the comp. (I can see this being an impractical method of determining the winner, maybe some kind of win/loss percentage is worked out - I will think of that later).
I think this is the best way to do it as it allows the competition to run over two terms with the usual GPS/CAS etc. comps still existing while the best rugby school in Sydney is simultaneously determined.

I apologise if this hasn't been explained well enough, this is the first time I've sat down and thoroughly put my thoughts on this down.
Please give me any feedback, I appreciate constructive criticism, but not outright dismissal or persecution.

Thanks.

 

[an observer]

My two cents worth... Forget a Sydney based comp and a private school/city centric competition. Break up the comp to provinces, make a national competition. This would (hopefully) create interest and promote the game. Something we totally lack in OZ. Yes we are a big nation with lots of sports on offer, but why isn't rugby promoted the same, or not more so, as in NZ? They may have a smaller population, but they still have the same sports on offer for people to choose from. Difference is passion. Televised, magazines, newspapers.... Even the NZ schoolboys local comps are televised! If Aust doesn't pursue promotion we will never deliver the goods, as the up and coming youngsters are wooed by other sports. We need to start thinking beyond the gps game of rugby and bring some excitement back to the game, allowing our talented backs to do what they do, fast running and passing rugby with the support of the biggest and strongest forward packs we can muster, but they have to be fast, not just boppers!!. Our forwards are definitely fit but they just are not quick enough, and the game is only going to get quicker.

 

[doondoonsley]

Yea I agree slightly. We should have a lot more national level stuff but I think for geographical reasons it can't just be a national comp. Personally I believe, for now, the best Rugby school in Sydney should play the best in Brisbane, regardless of how the best is determined. In the future, if the game increases in depth, promotion and general interest, and there is more money in the game, I think it could be great for say the top schools in each city to compete for a national cup, but I don't think this is possible at present, however the option I presented (best in Sydney V best in Brisbane) I think is obtainable at present.

 

[rugbycheersquad]

Yea I agree slightly. We should have a lot more national level stuff but I think for geographical reasons it can't just be a national comp. Personally I believe, for now, the best Rugby school in Sydney should play the best in Brisbane, regardless of how the best is determined. In the future, if the game increases in depth, promotion and general interest, and there is more money in the game, I think it could be great for say the top schools in each city to compete for a national cup, but I don't think this is possible at present, however the option I presented (best in Sydney V best in Brisbane) I think is obtainable at present.

So, in the extremely crowded curricular and co-curricular programs of the schools, when would you advocate that this powerhouse match take place?

 

[doondoonsley]

Yea good point, I know all to well the crowded nature of curricula/co-curricula programs. That is not to say that it is impossible, there is certainly space for it to take place somewhere, obviously in term 3 after the Rugby season. I am not trying to get too logistical here though I am just trying to state some things I think could be beneficial to players, and entertaining for spectators.

 

[Runner]

Why not try to vreate a Waratah Shield type comp in Qld. Then the NSW and Qld winners ( remembering ACT back in ) plan for a National trophy

 

[Quick Hands]

Some good thought on this thread, but there are a few points that need to be remembered when talking about school sport.

Sport is but one part of school life and rugby is but one of the sports offered by schools. Headmasters and teachers are rightly reluctant to place too much emphasis on sport.

Independent schools are very reluctant, if not totally opposed, to playing sport during school hours, hence Saturday sport and after school training.

State and Catholic systemic schools on the other hand have designated sports afternoons and play most if not all of their sport during school hours. Not only teachers, but you would find most of the students, would oppose Saturday sport. In fact many boys at independent schools resent it but have to do it to stay at the school. State and systemic schools are not able to impose such rules.

Part of the reasons that independent schools have more holidays is that their teaching and learning is not interrupted by sport and they teach the same, or more, hours in a shorter time frame.

It's not the responsibility of the school system to make up for the incompetence of rugby administrators. No other sport in Australia receives as much assistance in player development from
the school system as does rugby. In every other sport that I can think of, the governing body organises its development programme and anything given by schools is something of a bonus.

In my humble view rugby needs to realise that it has to take more responsibility in this regard instead of expecting schools to do the heavy lifting.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Anyone have any feedback from the ASRU Rugby Forum?

I would imagine the two round Sydney AAGPS proposal may have caused some discussion.

 

[Quick Hands]

Haven't heard anything about reaction to AAGPS changes. It doesn't really extend their season as they in effect played 2 rounds this year with the 1st match designated a trial. They'll just play less trials and more competition matches.Doesn't really affect CAS as they already have 2 rounds. From what I gather ISA will maintain a 1 round competition, timing yet to be confirmed. Would make sense to work with either GPS or CAS timing so that trials are available. I believe that be in Div 1 of ISA all schools must field a 1st and 2nd XV plus A and B in each age group. This presents problems for St Andrews in particular, but also Gregs and to a lesser extent Pius. St Andrews only fielded 1 team in age groups and they played in the B or C comp last year. There were also age groups where Gregs and Pius didn't field an A team (although I think that they stil had 2 teams).

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Some good thought on this thread, but there are a few points that need to be remembered when talking about school sport.

Sport is but one part of school life and rugby is but one of the sports offered by schools. Headmasters and teachers are rightly reluctant to place too much emphasis on sport.

Independent schools are very reluctant, if not totally opposed, to playing sport during school hours, hence Saturday sport and after school training.

State and Catholic systemic schools on the other hand have designated sports afternoons and play most if not all of their sport during school hours. Not only teachers, but you would find most of the students, would oppose Saturday sport. In fact many boys at independent schools resent it but have to do it to stay at the school. State and systemic schools are not able to impose such rules.

Part of the reasons that independent schools have more holidays is that their teaching and learning is not interrupted by sport and they teach the same, or more, hours in a shorter time frame.

It's not the responsibility of the school system to make up for the incompetence of rugby administrators. No other sport in Australia receives as much assistance in player development from
the school system as does rugby. In every other sport that I can think of, the governing body organises its development programme and anything given by schools is something of a bonus.

In my humble view rugby needs to realise that it has to take more responsibility in this regard instead of expecting schools to do the heavy lifting.

Top post!


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[Hugh Jarse]

Haven't heard anything about reaction to AAGPS changes. It doesn't really extend their season as they in effect played 2 rounds this year with the 1st match designated a trial. They'll just play less trials and more competition matches.Doesn't really affect CAS as they already have 2 rounds. From what I gather ISA will maintain a 1 round competition, timing yet to be confirmed. Would make sense to work with either GPS or CAS timing so that trials are available. I believe that be in Div 1 of ISA all schools must field a 1st and 2nd XV plus A and B in each age group. This presents problems for St Andrews in particular, but also Gregs and to a lesser extent Pius. St Andrews only fielded 1 team in age groups and they played in the B or C comp last year. There were also age groups where Gregs and Pius didn't field an A team (although I think that they stil had 2 teams).

With CAS and AAGPS now playing two competition rounds, the ISA Div 1 teams will have limited opportunities for trials outside their "conference", and may need to get innovative with trial games against clubs, ACT, CHS, CCC, AICES selections and the like, if they don't want to end up playing intra-conference trials.

Andrews, Pius and Gregs may need to examine their programmes and numbers to remain "relevant" in ISA Div 1.

 

[Runner]

With CAS and AAGPS now playing two competition rounds, the ISA Div 1 teams will have limited opportunities for trials outside their "conference", and may need to get innovative with trial games against clubs, ACT, CHS, CCC, AICES selections and the like, if they don't want to end up playing intra-conference trials.

Andrews, Pius and Gregs may need to examine their programmes and numbers to remain "relevant" in ISA Div 1.

They may go to two rounds as well. It also makes for those who can afford it touring an option atleast for the 1st and 2ndXV

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

With CAS and AAGPS now playing two competition rounds, the ISA Div 1 teams will have limited opportunities for trials outside their "conference", and may need to get innovative with trial games against clubs, ACT, CHS, CCC, AICES selections and the like, if they don't want to end up playing intra-conference trials.

Andrews, Pius and Gregs may need to examine their programmes and numbers to remain "relevant" in ISA Div 1.

Gregs will always find it difficult to field teams as long as ISA runs in term 2. They current operate primarily on boarders nd about 60 day boys. If the schedule was moved to term 3 the current issues Gregs experience will in time lessen.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't think that ISA have determined when their competition will run. I think the process is more complicated that GPS and CAS as some ISA schools are 'full members' (eg St Pats, Pius, Redlands) while others are 'associate members' (eg Augustines, Kinross). Only full members vote on decisions and the associates just have to go along. Half of the Div 1 schools are 'associates' so have no real say in how things are run, while the majority of full members are in Div 2.
The big problem with them going to 2 rounds would be the additional travel involved. Kinross and Stannies would have to bus their teams to and from Sydney 5 extra times and all the Sydney schools would have to bus their teams to Bathurst & Orange every year. Particularly for the country schools this would involve considerable extra expense.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Anything of interest come out of the ASRU Schools Forum held on 23 October?

See post #21.

 

[JM-P]

Why don't we simply build the bridge between our beloved Shute clubs and all schools that fall into their perspective regions,...hell we may even end up with a few more clubs down the track.
So if you go to TKS then you are headed to "Parra Juniors" then onto colts and finally grade and then onto fill George Smiths shoes at the Brumbies.
Once our TKS student has performed at Parra Juniors and does well, he could end up anywhere!

 

[Hugie]

JM-P, couldn't agree more. Don't invent something new to administer and run.

The ARU should pay the district clubs to run competitions in thier region for CHS and CCC (and pay for results only). This would give the district clubs income to support more full time staff, that can act as a resource for thier club. AND the club has a real interest in who is playing in thier district.
i.e. Motive + resources

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Been quiet for a while on this thread.

AAGPS Rugby will not change unless they want to.

CAS Rugby will not change unless they want to.

ISA Rugby seems able to change. They seem to be aligning themselves into :
Div 1 - Big Schools (2+ teams per age group)
Div 2 - Schools with 1 team per age group
Div 3 - Schools that can marshall a rugby team or two

CHS - Huge numbers. Possible for mid week inter school games. Contains many SJRU players. Dominated by Selective Sports High Schools. Seem to focus on Inter zone competition at U16 and U18 level primarily to chose U16 XV and CHS I and CHS II.

CCC - very large numbers. Contains a fair number of SJRU players. Union is poor 3rd cousin to Fivekick in the CCC sports world. Much like CHS the focus is on gala days and the U16 and U18 association rep teams. Player development has largely occurred from Junior Village club experience or transferrable Fivekick skills.

AICES - not much is known about this association. Probably similar to ISA Div 3. The odd school could marshall up a team here or there and could probably compete at ISA Div 3 level. The Dunning Brothers hail from this association. Player development has largely occurred from Junior Village club experience or transferrable Fivekick skills.

NSW Country Schools. The odd one out. AFAIK this primarily geographically based entity will take kids from CCC, CHS and ISA schools outside the metropolitan area. Seems to be a bit of an anomaly.

Other schools. I think that there may be a number of private schools, mostly small, that are not part of CCC, ISA or AICES. The characteristics of these are probably similar to AICES/ISA Div 3.

Sydney Junior Rugby Union. Provides an rugby opportunity for kids who attend a school without a rugby programme. Draws heavily off CAS, GPS and ISA players in the younger age groups. Used by parents to prepare their boys for the GPS/CAS/ISA rugby programme. Used by some parents to gain subsidised entry into the AAGPS/CAS/ISA system.

Rather than try to work out who is the best school, the ideal school competition will focus on increasing participation numbers from within the existing "conferences" or associations.

AAGPS. more or less at saturation point. Leave them alone.
CAS. more or less at saturation point. Leave them alone.
ISA Div 1 seems ok as is. Maybe drop 1 school to Div 2 to get rid of the Bye. 6 teams is not ideal but it works with AAGPS and CAS.
ISA Div 2 seems ok as is. Maybe drop All Saints Bathurst to Div 3 to accommodate School X being dropped from Div 1.
ISA Div 3 Get some development officers into this association to grow player numbers and player skills.
CHS Develop, Develop, Develop. Use 7's are the initial model.
CCC Develop, develop, develop. Use 7's are the initial model.
AICES encourage them to play with ISA 3 on a regular basis, or to enter teams in SJRU run competition. Make it a Friday night or Wednesday afternoon competition or whatever it takes to get these kids playing regular footy. If one school has insufficient numbers then have joint school teams.

Sydney Juniors need to work closer with local Shute shield clubs colts programme and help with the CHS/CCC competitions. Are SJRU still relevant for U15 and above????

Get the non aligned independent schools playing footy similar to the AICES model.

Key Points:

Stop trying to change the AAGPS and CAS model.

Rugby 7's may be the ideal vehicle to introduce the game to the smaller schools.

Get the Girls playing. Use 7's.

Revise SJRU scope to peak at U14's. Colts programmes to run U15 onwards. Introduce a max 85kg weight grade.