The Force & Rebels - So close, yet so far?
- Thread starter Tangawizi
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For the Rebels it can be missing some of the basic things like tackles and marking your man. Experiences is pivitol too (which will come in time) and some of it is just bad luck. You've probably seen on GAGR and even through stories of the Rebel Army they have a very passionate supporter base who are still keeping the faith. I'm certainly one of them, despite the close losses and the off-field shenanigans.
In the case of the Force I can See Foley's point that the travel would be killing them. Still that will always be there and they just have to deal with it the best they can. Perhaps they can arrange successive games in the eastern states and base themselves out there for a period?
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
Rebels have lacked a solid goal kicker this year, in their last 2/3 games having JOC (James O'Connor) nail those easier shots would have won the game. Besides that, a second playmaker would help get the backline firing, while a stronger openside would allowed them to really punish slow opposition.
The Force have the same goal kicker problem, Hayward seems to be a solution and with Mafi gone there's a nice spot open in the backline for him. Having props that don't give away a penalty every second scrum would be helpful for them as well. Their backline is actually really solid with some good depth, same for their backrow. Trying to get Tessmann to stay after this year would be golden for them.
The Force have the same goal kicker problem, Hayward seems to be a solution and with Mafi gone there's a nice spot open in the backline for him. Having props that don't give away a penalty every second scrum would be helpful for them as well. Their backline is actually really solid with some good depth, same for their backrow. Trying to get Tessmann to stay after this year would be golden for them.
I think it comes back to backing a designated kicker and sticking with that plan. It has moved between JOC (James O'Connor), KB (Kurtley Beale), Woodward, Gus and Jason throughout the season and ideally they need to stick with one set-shot kicker. The roving 22nd playmaker in 15 would be nice; ideally this job was KB (Kurtley Beale)'s, but unfortunately the injury and some personal issues have not helped here. If we are unfortunate to lose him I think Jason Woodward could really shine in this area - he's got the makings of a real star and he will only get better with expirence. i've been happy with Scotty's work on the openside but recruiting in blokes like Colby, Lopeti and retaining Jordy really sets ourselves up for multiple options in the 7. Overall I think our backrow is going to be really solid for a number of years.
Forcefield
Ken Catchpole (46)
So the Brumbies was one thumping (absolute thumping), what was the other one?
The problem for the Force is that we will struggle to replace the calibre of players going. Mafi is gone and Cummins will probably go too. I don't think we will even that out unless we pick up a guy like Rob Horne- but I would be concerned with him getting injured. We also need another really good lock to work with McMeniman. If we got that going, we might win 50% of the close ones. Which we would probably need to do as the majority of the squad is off contract next year. Those guys won't stay on if we aren't going upwards on the ladder.
The problem for the Force is that we will struggle to replace the calibre of players going. Mafi is gone and Cummins will probably go too. I don't think we will even that out unless we pick up a guy like Rob Horne- but I would be concerned with him getting injured. We also need another really good lock to work with McMeniman. If we got that going, we might win 50% of the close ones. Which we would probably need to do as the majority of the squad is off contract next year. Those guys won't stay on if we aren't going upwards on the ladder.
Brumbieman
Dick Tooth (41)
The Force's biggest issue is their attack.
When they actually show up, and make a fist of it (IE the Reds/Crusaders/Tahs/Chiefs) etc, their defence seems to be well organised, their breakdown work solid enough. THeir attack is just so unimaginative, its all based around someone making a break by themselves and then everyone just trying to support. There doesn't seem to be any purpose and intent when they have the ball. To fix this, I reckon they should throw everything they can at Phil Mooney as an attack coach. He always seems to get sides humming in attack and working as a cohesive unit. Just not a good head coach.
I don't know how to solve the fading at the end of games, but scoring an extra 10-15 points a game would certainly go a long way to fixing that.
For the Rebels, its just purely defence. They clearly score a lot of points, but just cant prevent letting in even more. To fix this they should be throwing everything they can (IE Beale's paycheck) at the Fainga'a twins. If anything in the world is going to fix a sides leaky defense, having Colby, Saia and Ant on the same side is going to do it.
The other thing they desperately need is a flyhalf. Not Beiber, not Beale, an actual flyhalf so that those two can play their own game out wide where they belong. Someone who plays like Matt To'omua or Johnny Wilkinson. Rock solid defender with a good tactical boot, who can run phases. Not an off the cuff running 10, a solid, hard tackling and well organised 10. With Beiber and Beale, they can run a lethal counter-attack when in general play, and score their tries that way. For the rest of the time though, they're really lacking in a good 10 who can organise the team and direct them around the field. Run an Eddie Jones' Wallabies style routine with 25 different set plays off the 9 and 10, and build pressure by doing that, and then let Beiber and Beale do their thing when the opportunities arise out wide.
And couple of decent props wouldn't go astray either.
When they actually show up, and make a fist of it (IE the Reds/Crusaders/Tahs/Chiefs) etc, their defence seems to be well organised, their breakdown work solid enough. THeir attack is just so unimaginative, its all based around someone making a break by themselves and then everyone just trying to support. There doesn't seem to be any purpose and intent when they have the ball. To fix this, I reckon they should throw everything they can at Phil Mooney as an attack coach. He always seems to get sides humming in attack and working as a cohesive unit. Just not a good head coach.
I don't know how to solve the fading at the end of games, but scoring an extra 10-15 points a game would certainly go a long way to fixing that.
For the Rebels, its just purely defence. They clearly score a lot of points, but just cant prevent letting in even more. To fix this they should be throwing everything they can (IE Beale's paycheck) at the Fainga'a twins. If anything in the world is going to fix a sides leaky defense, having Colby, Saia and Ant on the same side is going to do it.
The other thing they desperately need is a flyhalf. Not Beiber, not Beale, an actual flyhalf so that those two can play their own game out wide where they belong. Someone who plays like Matt To'omua or Johnny Wilkinson. Rock solid defender with a good tactical boot, who can run phases. Not an off the cuff running 10, a solid, hard tackling and well organised 10. With Beiber and Beale, they can run a lethal counter-attack when in general play, and score their tries that way. For the rest of the time though, they're really lacking in a good 10 who can organise the team and direct them around the field. Run an Eddie Jones' Wallabies style routine with 25 different set plays off the 9 and 10, and build pressure by doing that, and then let Beiber and Beale do their thing when the opportunities arise out wide.
And couple of decent props wouldn't go astray either.
Brumbieman
Dick Tooth (41)
The Force's biggest issue is their attack.
When they actually show up, and make a fist of it (IE the Reds/Crusaders/Tahs/Chiefs) etc, their defence seems to be well organised, their breakdown work solid enough. THeir attack is just so unimaginative, its all based around someone making a break by themselves and then everyone just trying to support. There doesn't seem to be any purpose and intent when they have the ball. To fix this, I reckon they should throw everything they can at Phil Mooney as an attack coach. He always seems to get sides humming in attack and working as a cohesive unit. Just not a good head coach.
I don't know how to solve the fading at the end of games, but scoring an extra 10-15 points a game would certainly go a long way to fixing that.
For the Rebels, its just purely defence. They clearly score a lot of points, but just cant prevent letting in even more. To fix this they should be throwing everything they can (IE Beale's paycheck) at the Fainga'a twins. If anything in the world is going to fix a sides leaky defense, having Colby, Saia and Ant on the same side is going to do it.
The other thing they desperately need is a flyhalf. Not Beiber, not Beale, an actual flyhalf so that those two can play their own game out wide where they belong. Someone who plays like Matt To'omua or Johnny Wilkinson. Rock solid defender with a good tactical boot, who can run phases. Not an off the cuff running 10, a solid, hard tackling and well organised 10. With Beiber and Beale, they can run a lethal counter-attack when in general play, and score their tries that way. For the rest of the time though, they're really lacking in a good 10 who can organise the team and direct them around the field. Run an Eddie Jones' Wallabies style routine with 25 different set plays off the 9 and 10, and build pressure by doing that, and then let Beiber and Beale do their thing when the opportunities arise out wide.
And couple of decent props wouldn't go astray either.
When they actually show up, and make a fist of it (IE the Reds/Crusaders/Tahs/Chiefs) etc, their defence seems to be well organised, their breakdown work solid enough. THeir attack is just so unimaginative, its all based around someone making a break by themselves and then everyone just trying to support. There doesn't seem to be any purpose and intent when they have the ball. To fix this, I reckon they should throw everything they can at Phil Mooney as an attack coach. He always seems to get sides humming in attack and working as a cohesive unit. Just not a good head coach.
I don't know how to solve the fading at the end of games, but scoring an extra 10-15 points a game would certainly go a long way to fixing that.
For the Rebels, its just purely defence. They clearly score a lot of points, but just cant prevent letting in even more. To fix this they should be throwing everything they can (IE Beale's paycheck) at the Fainga'a twins. If anything in the world is going to fix a sides leaky defense, having Colby, Saia and Ant on the same side is going to do it.
The other thing they desperately need is a flyhalf. Not Beiber, not Beale, an actual flyhalf so that those two can play their own game out wide where they belong. Someone who plays like Matt To'omua or Johnny Wilkinson. Rock solid defender with a good tactical boot, who can run phases. Not an off the cuff running 10, a solid, hard tackling and well organised 10. With Beiber and Beale, they can run a lethal counter-attack when in general play, and score their tries that way. For the rest of the time though, they're really lacking in a good 10 who can organise the team and direct them around the field. Run an Eddie Jones' Wallabies style routine with 25 different set plays off the 9 and 10, and build pressure by doing that, and then let Beiber and Beale do their thing when the opportunities arise out wide.
And couple of decent props wouldn't go astray either.
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
I don't see how it is the responsibility of the ARU to distribute talent evenly. If nothing else, we're seeing previous left fielders in every team (bar the Waratahs) who are now the choice players and in Wallaby contention.
But really the best example is South Africa - The Bulls and Sharks are full of Springboks, with a few in the others. And yet it looks like the South African conference is going to come down to the Cheetahs and the Bulls!
For comparison, that is like saying the Australian conference is going to come down to the Rebels and the Waratahs.
There are simple things that these teams are getting wrong that they can be taught to do properly, it won't be solved by taking the Wallabies and giving eight to each team.
But really the best example is South Africa - The Bulls and Sharks are full of Springboks, with a few in the others. And yet it looks like the South African conference is going to come down to the Cheetahs and the Bulls!
For comparison, that is like saying the Australian conference is going to come down to the Rebels and the Waratahs.
There are simple things that these teams are getting wrong that they can be taught to do properly, it won't be solved by taking the Wallabies and giving eight to each team.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
There are many excellent observations here.
But heart of the matter is surely this: the management of these two franchises have, at different times and in different ways, made major errors in both their approaches to selection and team design and, even more so, the selection of their coaching resources. That problematic inheritance is at the heart of these franchises continuing inability to win a commercially viable number of S15 games.
That the Rebels after three years still cannot get defence intensity, consistent application and structures right is simply an indictment of their technical and/or motivational coaching capabilities. There's no excuses for it, the Force in a matter of months under Foley have dramatically improved their defence, clearly demonstrating what's possible with the right instructional skills.
The Tahs' inconsistencies in attack (especially in backs play), and lack of adequate skill and sustained intensity for all of 80 in attack, have been an obvious issue in that franchise for a number of years. In a matter of months, Cheika has made vast improvements in this aspect of Tah capability along with the required improvements in attitude and team motivation essential to a good attacking team mindset.
In Vern Reid, the Force carried a demonstrably poor CEO for far too long (and nearly every year Force crowds fell and keep falling today vs say three years back), and Reid in turn persisted with Mitchell and his odd, eccentric ways for far too long and was obsessed with a team design model based upon 'star recruiting through cash' (vs the type of more substantial and successful model for Aussie S15 team creation followed by (as example) J White, namely find good players with high potential and making them excellent players through superior coaching and people management skill). Then in came the wholly unproven Graham, he left after 10 minutes such was his depth of conviction re his charges, and next, in panic not care, Foley was pulled from NSW after clearly demonstrating severe shortcomings in all of selection, game planning and support coaching staff whilst there all with a far more talented playing stock than existed at the Force.
The ARU failed dismally in its establishment model for the Rebels in terms of the essential calibre of management resources in such a high-risk venture. The franchise is on its 3rd CEO in as many years and how anyone considered it a wise experiment in risk/reward in a hugely tough sports market to give the head coach's job to a Premier grade coach only with zero S15 record is beyond rational comprehension. The Rebels assistant coaches appear out of adequate capability as an aggregated unit as too many core components of game skill are missing, this is wholly forgivable in say years one and perhaps two, but not in year three.
There can be all manner of excuses for a consistently awful w-l % ratios as we see at the Force and Rebels but the fact is that the these franchises' crowd numbers are hovering at potentially life-threatening levels as not enough winning is going on. The ARU's own appalling self-management culminating in its own huge recent losses means there's little cash left for investment in ongoing State RU problem-solving.
Until the total management capability of these franchises is significantly improved, they'll remain predominantly devices for the masochistic enjoyment of a loyal but far from viably sized fan base.
But heart of the matter is surely this: the management of these two franchises have, at different times and in different ways, made major errors in both their approaches to selection and team design and, even more so, the selection of their coaching resources. That problematic inheritance is at the heart of these franchises continuing inability to win a commercially viable number of S15 games.
That the Rebels after three years still cannot get defence intensity, consistent application and structures right is simply an indictment of their technical and/or motivational coaching capabilities. There's no excuses for it, the Force in a matter of months under Foley have dramatically improved their defence, clearly demonstrating what's possible with the right instructional skills.
The Tahs' inconsistencies in attack (especially in backs play), and lack of adequate skill and sustained intensity for all of 80 in attack, have been an obvious issue in that franchise for a number of years. In a matter of months, Cheika has made vast improvements in this aspect of Tah capability along with the required improvements in attitude and team motivation essential to a good attacking team mindset.
In Vern Reid, the Force carried a demonstrably poor CEO for far too long (and nearly every year Force crowds fell and keep falling today vs say three years back), and Reid in turn persisted with Mitchell and his odd, eccentric ways for far too long and was obsessed with a team design model based upon 'star recruiting through cash' (vs the type of more substantial and successful model for Aussie S15 team creation followed by (as example) J White, namely find good players with high potential and making them excellent players through superior coaching and people management skill). Then in came the wholly unproven Graham, he left after 10 minutes such was his depth of conviction re his charges, and next, in panic not care, Foley was pulled from NSW after clearly demonstrating severe shortcomings in all of selection, game planning and support coaching staff whilst there all with a far more talented playing stock than existed at the Force.
The ARU failed dismally in its establishment model for the Rebels in terms of the essential calibre of management resources in such a high-risk venture. The franchise is on its 3rd CEO in as many years and how anyone considered it a wise experiment in risk/reward in a hugely tough sports market to give the head coach's job to a Premier grade coach only with zero S15 record is beyond rational comprehension. The Rebels assistant coaches appear out of adequate capability as an aggregated unit as too many core components of game skill are missing, this is wholly forgivable in say years one and perhaps two, but not in year three.
There can be all manner of excuses for a consistently awful w-l % ratios as we see at the Force and Rebels but the fact is that the these franchises' crowd numbers are hovering at potentially life-threatening levels as not enough winning is going on. The ARU's own appalling self-management culminating in its own huge recent losses means there's little cash left for investment in ongoing State RU problem-solving.
Until the total management capability of these franchises is significantly improved, they'll remain predominantly devices for the masochistic enjoyment of a loyal but far from viably sized fan base.
terry j
Ron Walden (29)
I get the fans frustration completely.
But what can you do about this??
What I mean is, we can reverse this argument by saying 'if the force and rebels start winning, then (by implication) the other aussie franchises are losing, and they will lose THEIR fans as not enough winning is going on'.
Someone will always lose, someone will always win. Heck, did not mean always lose a game they played, but you get the drift. In any competition someone has to come first and someone has to come last was what I meant.
These things seem to go in cycles too, and not yearly. It would be different if we had a (different) dominant team each year, but we don't. What we seem to get is different 'reigns' that last a few years.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
These two teams simply lack depth.
They are both on the improve, especially the force. They just need more quality players, and that takes time because Australia only has so many quality players at the moment.
Once the 3rd tier gets going, these teams will pick up their game.
They are both on the improve, especially the force. They just need more quality players, and that takes time because Australia only has so many quality players at the moment.
Once the 3rd tier gets going, these teams will pick up their game.
James Buchanan
Trevor Allan (34)
While he is not universally liked, I thought I saw some of this element in Angus Roberts. The kid was probably thrown into the deep end a little too fast on the tour to South Africa and could have done with more time getting used to the speed and intensity of Super Rugby at 15 before being thrust into 10. But, by all reports his game management skills are very good and from the games I have watched (I'm notoriously bad at seeing the South African games) his tactical kicking was a real strength. He still has a bit of that 'do it himself' in him but less so than certain other players who have worn the 10 jumper this year.
People have to remember that players take time to develop into Super Rugby. Cooper's early seasons at the Reds were very up and down. To'omua is only really starting to find consistency at the Brumbies, and Lealiifano was all promise before last season.
Brumbieman
Dick Tooth (41)
To add to my last post:
I'm really liking the look of this young Hegarty kid. He seems very solid, has a good pass and is organising/directing play around very well. Getting excellent service from Stirzaker as well. Now all you need is to sign the twins, and you're there!
Henderson
Fainga'a
Weeks
Neville
Pyle
Jones
Fainga'a
Higginbotham
Stirzaker
Hegarty
Vuna
Fainga'a
Inman
O'Connor
Beale
I'm really liking the look of this young Hegarty kid. He seems very solid, has a good pass and is organising/directing play around very well. Getting excellent service from Stirzaker as well. Now all you need is to sign the twins, and you're there!
Henderson
Fainga'a
Weeks
Neville
Pyle
Jones
Fainga'a
Higginbotham
Stirzaker
Hegarty
Vuna
Fainga'a
Inman
O'Connor
Beale
disco
Chilla Wilson (44)
The Force have been shafted by the draw & Foley is right they need to go on a four game tour of NZ & the east coast just like the saffas.
The Rebels needed to settle on their 1st 15 earlier but with JOC (James O'Connor)'s injuries & Beale absent it's been pretty tough at the selection table, they have got the forward pack right they just need to get someone like Whitaker from the Force as their hooker & hopefully fix the scrum.
JOC (James O'Connor) needs to play 10 but he needs to be a more demanding 10 & take on more responsibility when it come to the basics like kicking for touch, taking all shots @ goal & kicking the re-starts.
The Rebels needed to settle on their 1st 15 earlier but with JOC (James O'Connor)'s injuries & Beale absent it's been pretty tough at the selection table, they have got the forward pack right they just need to get someone like Whitaker from the Force as their hooker & hopefully fix the scrum.
JOC (James O'Connor) needs to play 10 but he needs to be a more demanding 10 & take on more responsibility when it come to the basics like kicking for touch, taking all shots @ goal & kicking the re-starts.
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