The Difference Between Kiwi and Aussie/Saffer Teams

[Gnostic]

It's not just coaching. Kiwi coaches in Australia haven't set the world on fire. So some of it must be with the players too.



Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

Its not just the coaches at senior level. They have little chance of correcting the skill deficiencies that senior players have at Pro level. As was said to me many times on here over the years, it isn't the Pro level coach's job to fix a player who can't pass the ball or kick and they don't have the time. Problem is in Australian pathways they just are no longer learning those skills that my rose tinted glasses show me the amateurs learnt far better player park footy.

 

[MACCA]

Its not just the coaches at senior level. They have little chance of correcting the skill deficiencies that senior players have at Pro level. As was said to me many times on here over the years, it isn't the Pro level coach's job to fix a player who can't pass the ball or kick and they don't have the time. Problem is in Australian pathways they just are no longer learning those skills that my rose tinted glasses show me the amateurs learnt far better player park footy.

Yep - nailed it. You play Aus Under 20s , get well beaten and end up ranked 8th in the world, then get a Super contract and play Super Rugby. Let these boys play with men and see how they go. Its too big a jump from playing with boys to playing with men.
With the Force about to be chopped, 30 current players and the next level of fringe aspirants are about to be given the realisation that they have limited opportunity in rugby. Might as well make it amateur again. No wonder the Aussie teams are stuffed.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The problem is what is it that takes up their time at training that prevents pro coaches from fixing the inadequacies in basic skills?
Why aren't the 10 and 15s (or all backs for that matter) spending an hour before or after the team run acquiring a left foot kick?
Why aren't those with a dodgy right sided pass spending time fixing it?
These guys are paid a lot of money and have plenty of time.

 

[Hands Off Seven!]

No single answer to why the Kiwis are so superior.

Their depth is outstanding. It always has been but I think that aspect has been magnified since Rugby went pro in the 90's. NZ have always churned out unbelievably talented well coached kids who before professionalism may have drifted away from the game but now stay in the game and then some. All countries have more kids staying in the game of course but the NZ depth is depthier.

This isn't so much an answer to the question but shows a slight difference in sport priorities. Last year I watched a Queensland School GPS side play a NZ school side in the July school holidays in Brisbane. Bear in mind the Brisbane GPS comp commences term 3 so yet to kick off. Kiwi dad over here to watch his kid says hows the team going so far in the comp. I said comp hasn't started yet. He said but it's July. I said I know but we play just the one term. He said his son's team already played 15 games and will finish season at 20 something games. I asked do the rugby kids play other school sports during the year and he said some do but a lot just play rugby.

No criticism of the School sports calendar here it just highlights the different emphasis.
.

 

[Brumby Runner]

^^^^^^ Very telling HO7.

 

[mst]

The problem is what is it that takes up their time at training that prevents pro coaches from fixing the inadequacies in basic skills?
Why aren't the 10 and 15s (or all backs for that matter) spending an hour before or after the team run acquiring a left foot kick?
Why aren't those with a dodgy right sided pass spending time fixing it?
These guys are paid a lot of money and have plenty of time.

IMHO the answer to your question is quite easy. Australian coaches are obsessed with gimmicky short fixes and structure, structure, game plans and structure. They obsess with formations and structures so much it would put professional dance troupes to shame with the level of choreography.

Have a look at the below picture. Look at the Canes defence already on the front foot in motion as a unit.

Now look at the Rebels. Consider that the Rebels control the timing on this, they pulled the trigger but you can see some players are not ready, still organising and trying to communicate. Some are still not positioned correctly, but it is clear that getting in to a pre-set formation is second nature but the purpose, intent, and execution is not there. Also look at the defence and where the attack should be going - big hole on the right, but look at the players, the formation and structure is not even looking even close to recognising or even adjusting to the defensive line. Its a structure for the sake of having a structure and there is no deviation, and I bet it would be almost habitual after being drilled in to players.

Of note the Canes defence is not even considering the need to slide and the fact that its showing a 2 on 1 to the Rebel on the right side is not even a bother to them. The Rebel are not going forwards so there is no pressure and they will be too slow to get around the Canes; that is easily recognisable.

Predictable, over structured, slow and clearly playing against patterns, not what the opposition is actually doing. Most Aussie teams are like this. The Tahs and Reds improvise the best but is always messy and a 50/50 prospect as its unnatural.

Its why teams like the Chiefs who play unstructured cut Aussie teams to pieces as we are too busy trying to find the right structure to counter what they are doing. Always a step behind at best.

 

[louie]

Spot on MST. For me the problem is too many of our coaches are influenced by RL. Phases with no ball movements. In comparison Kiwi rugby looks almost AFL in it's speed and movement.

Darrol Gibson talk about it more here.

“It’s a structural thing,” he said.“The difficulty for us is I think the Eddie Jones era of playing A, B, C-certain type of rugby, that lack of decision making has had an effect on Australian rugby in the fact that it’s very pervasive across the schooling system.

“And then so we tend to get our boys at 18 and probably their skills are very good but their just missing the decision making in an open environment.”

 

[RugbyReg]

This isn't so much an answer to the question but shows a slight difference in sport priorities. Last year I watched a Queensland School GPS side play a NZ school side in the July school holidays in Brisbane. Bear in mind the Brisbane GPS comp commences term 3 so yet to kick off. Kiwi dad over here to watch his kid says hows the team going so far in the comp. I said comp hasn't started yet. He said but it's July. I said I know but we play just the one term. He said his son's team already played 15 games and will finish season at 20 something games. I asked do the rugby kids play other school sports during the year and he said some do but a lot just play rugby.

No criticism of the School sports calendar here it just highlights the different emphasis.
.

Do those kids play jnr club as well in NZ do you know? Is the focus more on school do you think?

 

[Dave Beat]

Doing better than last time repeatidly puts you on an incline.
Resting good goes stale, and gets chucked out.

 

[TOCC]

No single answer to why the Kiwis are so superior.

Their depth is outstanding. It always has been but I think that aspect has been magnified since Rugby went pro in the 90's. NZ have always churned out unbelievably talented well coached kids who before professionalism may have drifted away from the game but now stay in the game and then some. All countries have more kids staying in the game of course but the NZ depth is depthier.

This isn't so much an answer to the question but shows a slight difference in sport priorities. Last year I watched a Queensland School GPS side play a NZ school side in the July school holidays in Brisbane. Bear in mind the Brisbane GPS comp commences term 3 so yet to kick off. Kiwi dad over here to watch his kid says hows the team going so far in the comp. I said comp hasn't started yet. He said but it's July. I said I know but we play just the one term. He said his son's team already played 15 games and will finish season at 20 something games. I asked do the rugby kids play other school sports during the year and he said some do but a lot just play rugby.

No criticism of the School sports calendar here it just highlights the different emphasis.
.

What I would also ask, does playing other sports adversely impact on the students ability? Some of these kids are playing cricket, union and AFL all in the same year, is that adversely impacting on their skill set or making them better?

 

[Norfolk & Chance]

I'll only comment from an Australia perspective as i know nothing about SA rugby. From an early age (14/15) the so called better kids get into "the program" and as previously mentioned get coached to play the A, B, C runner game, so they look good, they play the style the ARU scouts want to see so they stay in the program. The number of games they play is reduced, so they don't get burnt out, but they are still flogged at training 3 or 4+ days a week. They are all excellent trainers, are big and strong, have excellent skills at training and play very structured rugby against other sides who are all coached the same way and play with a very similar structure. Unfortunately when they are called on to play actual rugby, with counter rucking, game pace kick and chase, high pressure defense that works hard all the time, etc, their training skills go out the window as pressure is applied. Under commitment at ruck isn't an option, just spinning the ball across the backline or hitting the B runner on the chest isn't good enough, you need to go forward. So therefore they need more time, so everyone sets up deeper and deeper until they have the time they need to do what they have always done. Playing rugby that looks pretty but unfortunately the other team isn't doing that, they are playing and not being able to think of a better word "ugly rugby". IMO we need to stop schools preventing boys from playing multiple games a weekend, I've never heard a boy say (unless injured) I don't want to play tomorrow. Stop the weights programs as 14-18 year olds, there wouldn't be so many injuries if boys looked like boys rather than 23 year olds. Just let them play rugby and learn how to play the game of rugby. There is plenty of time to get big when they have grown up. Then they can play hard rugby as men.

 

[Hands Off Seven!]

I think I heard once that the club comps in NZ for older school kids are strong and a lot of kids play both school and club. Maybe an expat could enlighten.

 

[Upthenuts]

just reading some interesting stats, we are awesome! its like porn for kiwis and makes us feel so good, winning at all levels
http://www.allblacks.com/News/30470/almanack-highlights-all-blacks-dominance

 

[Dan54]

Do those kids play jnr club as well in NZ do you know? Is the focus more on school do you think?

No kids almost always just play for their school, at college level anyway.

 

[Dan54]

I don't know but last year I think the best 3 fly halfs for Aus school boys (including injured Blaise Barnes) went to League.

Actually a good number of kiwi rugby kids go to league, as it easier to get a contract as a young fella coming out of school, take Laumape for the Canes, he came out of college, could get a contract with Warriors, and once he got a couple of years under his belt and could get a Super contract he came back, I know I read of a young no 8 from Wellington college doing same thing, though he hasn't returned as yet

 

[Lindommer]

This isn't so much an answer to the question but shows a slight difference in sport priorities. Last year I watched a Queensland School GPS side play a NZ school side in the July school holidays in Brisbane. Bear in mind the Brisbane GPS comp commences term 3 so yet to kick off. Kiwi dad over here to watch his kid says how's the team going so far in the comp. I said comp hasn't started yet. He said but it's July. I said I know but we play just the one term. He said his son's team already played 15 games and will finish season at 20 something games. I asked do the rugby kids play other school sports during the year and he said some do but a lot just play rugby. No criticism of the School sports calendar here it just highlights the different emphasis.

Sorta confirms what I've thought for some time, our elite juniors don't play enough games. I played about 12 every winter in my time at school in Sydney, IIRC my son might've played one less. The Sydney schools seem to've tied themselves in knots trying to shoe-horn athletics in either before or after rugby, neither early nor late look to be satisfactory while it's cutting into rugby seasons.

 

[Gnostic]

Just look at the Canes V Chiefs game tonight, relatively few handling errors considering the horrendous conditions. Australian sides drop more ball on a dry night than that.

I await the first "dew" comment for the Canberra game.

 

[Highlander35]

Australian teams seem to play shite in anything bar clear weather at all levels, some of that will be tactics, and some of that will be a lack of experience, and some of it lack of skills.

That particular aspect would take a long time to change.

Edit: In rainy weather, the old farts playing masters often have the superior handling skills to the grades, at least down in Victoria. My guess is that UK/NZ/Ireland upbringings that many of them have help there.

 

[The torpedo]

IMO I reckon the death of Australian rugby has started. I now expect Australian super rugby teams to get flogged by 50+ when playing vs NZ. I also find it harder and harder since 2016 to watch any rugby.

Prediction Rugby will be dead in this country in less than 10 years if the admin, coaches and players continue to give themselves rectal exams on the state of rugby here (e.g. see my signature). Considering that we have had so many low points in the past 5 years (RC opener 2016, England series, 2012, 2014 & 2015 @ Eden Park etc) I start to think there may not be any change until it is terminal

 

[zer0]

This isn't so much an answer to the question but shows a slight difference in sport priorities. Last year I watched a Queensland School GPS side play a NZ school side in the July school holidays in Brisbane. Bear in mind the Brisbane GPS comp commences term 3 so yet to kick off. Kiwi dad over here to watch his kid says hows the team going so far in the comp. I said comp hasn't started yet. He said but it's July. I said I know but we play just the one term. He said his son's team already played 15 games and will finish season at 20 something games. I asked do the rugby kids play other school sports during the year and he said some do but a lot just play rugby.

20-something matches sounds like a lot of -- presumably 1st XV -- HS games. At least to me. Auckland 1A, for example, is an 11 game regular season, plus semifinals and final. So 13 matches at most. Making the final of the nationals would take you up to 16 matches. I guess you could count preseasons which would push you to 20 matches or thereabouts.

Still. I can't fathom how you can't start the season until July. The regular season ends in early August out here, and the senior sides begin the preseason in December and over summer.