Talk about elitist

[barbarian]

Jeez I give up.

It's a kids holiday camp. But some of you are prescribing SO much importance to the thing, such that it is the sole reason for the downfall of rugby at every level.

The ARU has significant administrational and financial issues, undoubtedly. I do not wish to be an apologist for them, nor do I disagree with IS's assertions they are elitist and their efforts to grow the game have been token at best.

However I come back to my original statement- it's a holiday camp for 11 year olds. For gods sake. Get a grip.

I'm out, this is going around in circles and clearly you people are just looking for things to rage about.

.

 

[I like to watch]

Jeez I give up.

It's a kids holiday camp. But some of you are prescribing SO much importance to the thing, such that it is the sole reason for the downfall of rugby at every level.

The ARU has significant administrational and financial issues, undoubtedly. I do not wish to be an apologist for them, nor do I disagree with IS's assertions they are elitist and their efforts to grow the game have been token at best.

However I come back to my original statement- it's a holiday camp for 11 year olds. For gods sake. Get a grip..

The whole point for mine is that this is a perfect example of the ARU's attitude to developing the game.
It is token and is directed at those who do not need it.
They continue to totally ignore the grassroots, and focus on the top 40 players in the land.
It is a camp for young kid's, exactly the demographic all the other codes have a well funded program to foster any interest in their game.
My kid's have never seen an ARU development officer in either primary or secondary schools, the ARL & AFL guys chase the schools for the opportunity continually.
On a village club level, nothing nada zip.
Of course the star players do turn up to presentation days which is appreciated, however this is organised on a local level not through the ARU.

 

[Dingdong]

[quote="I like to watch, post: 344844, member: 2155
They continue to totally ignore the grassroots, and focus on the top 40 players in the land.
[/quote]


Over 700 players are involved in the ARU's junior gold program and more than 100 in the national gold.

 

[suckerforred]

Jeez I give up.

It's a kids holiday camp. But some of you are prescribing SO much importance to the thing, such that it is the sole reason for the downfall of rugby at every level.
...
However I come back to my original statement- it's a holiday camp for 11 year olds. For gods sake. Get a grip.

I'm out, this is going around in circles and clearly you people are just looking for things to rage about.

.

I know you said you were out but I have just one more question....

If it is 'just a holiday camp for kids' why are they (the ARU) wanting the kids to be of an 'elite level'? Their words not mine.

 

[Freddo Frog]

That way they know that kids have a basic skill set that they can build on.
They obviously don't want to run a 'learners' camp, but just work with kids who already play well and want to improve (with the carrot of possibly coming to the attention of the ARU talent scouts). It's still a holiday camp - for kids who play at a good standard.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That way they know that kids have a basic skill set that they can build on.
They obviously don't want to run a 'learners' camp, but just work with kids who already play well and want to improve (with the carrot of possibly coming to the attention of the ARU talent scouts). It's still a holiday camp - for kids who play at a good standard.

But they have no way of knowing whether the enrolled kids are up to it or not - and elite level connotes something more than just basic skills.
Besides which every* white male parent in the east and on the north shore thinks their son (and maybe their daughter) has elite skills.
*since everyone takes everything so literally I dont mean literally every parent

 

[suckerforred]

That way they know that kids have a basic skill set that they can build on.
They obviously don't want to run a 'learners' camp, but just work with kids who already play well and want to improve (with the carrot of possibly coming to the attention of the ARU talent scouts). It's still a holiday camp - for kids who play at a good standard.

Thanks Freddo. Sensible answer. Can you do the same for all the other points raised?

 

[Freddo Frog]

I actually agree with you for once IS. I think they've deliberately chosen "elite" so that parents may think twice about enrolling little Xavier who has played 6 games in his life for a grand total of 43 minutes. It's a word that might help to pull up even the most devoted/biased parent.

Mind you, I don't know many "elite" 11 year olds...even 14 year olds is a bit of a stretch but at least by that stage they will (or will not) have made their high schools age A team.

 

[CTPE]

I've deliberately stayed out of this thread to date but will just make a couple of observations:

1. These holiday junior rugby camps have been held at Riverview for at least a decade albeit without ARU "endorsement" until the last couple of years or so - I recall Macquarie Bank was involved in sponsoring them in the early days.

2. Riverview is a good venue for camps and carnivals as it is an "enclosed location" and has plenty of fields and other amenities. The NSW Schools Comp was held there last year and the National Schoolboys are being held there this year.

3. I'm surprised that the ARU has labelled this part of the "Pathway to Gold" program when there doesn't appear to be a selection process - just a booking process.

4. The ARU otherwise does a pretty good job with it's U14 - U18 Junior Gold Squad program both in Sydney, regional NSW and interstate- it costs selected applicants only $80 to participate including the kit and the kids are drawn from a very broad cross section of schools and areas. From my observations they get it pretty well right with their NGS program as well.

5. I noticed today that the 11-14 High Performance Camp is full and there is a wait list.

 

[Newbie]

"Really.... we are talking 11 - 14 year olds here - previous experience in body contact sports of high ability... WTF... this is a rort from the ARU to pull some dollars in from the "Housewives of Mosman and Vaucluse" who are convinced that little Xavier or Oliver are going to be the next big thing... genius from the ARU how it is worded to give the impression of it providing a pathway (obviously the work of the unpaid intern!)...

ROTFLMFAO@SteveMerrick!

I thank you for the the above piece of writing. I laughed so hard I f@%kin cried! Brilliant! F%$kin brilliant'!!!!!!!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

5. I noticed today that the 11-14 High Performance Camp is full and there is a wait list

Except that I got an email on Monday, which prompted the thread, inviting me to enrol my kids....not that contradictory information out of the ARU is either sinister or novel


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[SteveMerrick]

ROTFLMFAO@SteveMerrick!

I thank you for the the above piece of writing. I laughed so hard I f@%kin cried! Brilliant! F%$kin brilliant'!!!!!!!

"I enjoyed writing it - have to admit I have had visions of the ARU scouting junior cage fighting competitions looking for an 11 year old who displays a high ability in contact sports!"

The problem with rugby is that there are too many clipboard champions justifying their existence by making the game more complex than it needs to be, it is amazing that we even need any junior elite squads - let them play school and junior club rugby and then colts rugby - the cream will emerge eventually without being molly coddled along the way - sure rugby league have "elite" junior structures but they actually play games - from what I can understand the NGS and JGS and now the PHPG for 11 year olds spend most of the time training - the best experience is always gained on the field and this lack of experience is evident with some of the young players at Super level who have not played enough rugby.

Take Tom Carter ( take a deep breath Bruce Ross!) - he was a reasonable schoolboy footballer but not the top tier in his age group, he has limited tools and he knows it but by consistently playing a lot of club rugby for Uni at Colts and Grade level he also knows how to get the most out of his toolset - I would argue that a kid like Luke Jones would be better having 50 - 75 club games in the back five under his belt before he even gets near a Super game of rugby - his development as a player is being stunted by not playing enough at a level he can really compete and eventually dominate in and the next step is Super than perhaps International rugby.

Sermon over

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well said mr merrick.
Arguably that was a role that might have been filled by the 3rd tier comp.
But this morning we learn of a further paring of ARU contracts - ok so it's only another 2 that have been lost - but there are 24 fewer top up contracts now than there were a few years ago. This further entrenches the ARUs role as the wallabies corporate arm because now only 32 players in the whole country will get money directly from it. Everyone else will be paid by their province......who we know are doing it tough.
The figures I posted earlier in this thread show just how top heavy the ARU has become: this worsens the ratio of players to administrators. I believe the ARU emphasis on the top 32 is contrary to its charter.
But the real problem, which will exacerbate the situation mr merrick writes of, is that senior players, like Tom carter (but not tc cos he's never had a top up contract) will be more likely to leave their province to play in France etc. in consequence we will need to use more young players and sooner....or help develop south African half backs like pretorius when the relatively young burgess decides to make a killing elsewhere....

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-on-its-wallaby-contracts-20120404-1wd7d.html



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[suckerforred]

"O'Neill was speaking at the launch of Pacific in Union, a new partnership between the ARU, the International Rugby Board and the Australian government's development agency AusAID, which will send ''rugby ambassadors'' into Pacific island nations in an effort to promote social and cultural development."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/aru-cuts-back-on-its-wallaby-contracts-20120404-1wd7d.html#ixzz1r6yeKnHo

OK. I appreciate that the ARU is doing their bit for promoting the game in the Pacific island nations, but I have a couple of questions.

Is this where the 'savings' for less player contracts going to be spent? Or is the same amount of money going to be spent on fewer contracts?
Where is the NZRU in this? I don't deny that Oz rugby benefits from Pacific island relations, but I think NZRU would as well.
What about the 'social and cutural development' of Australia and Rugby Union in Australia?

And relating this back to the initial topic of discussion on this thread - How the f&%^ do we expect to keep these 'elite' 11-14 YO's if they have no clear pathway into the upper levels of the game?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

All good points SFR.
Is interesting that AFL and NRL make big bucks but when the government is looking for a partner in the Pacific the game they play in heaven is the go to code...
You soft pedalled on your point about NZRU - they derive considerably more benefit (at least in rugby) than we do and have done over much longer by accessing the most talented from the island nations - true (as I understand it - please correct me if I am wrong) the people of the island nations have a right to reside in NZ but presumably the Oz government plan here is about helping the island nations create an environment that people will want to stay in rather than looking to either NZ or Oz in the long term.
This is all noble stuff but fijian, samoan and tongan background kids already in Oz, as well as kids in Australia more generally, who want to play rugby should have first call on the ARUs meagre resources.
When an organisation has the management structure of the ARU it seems

‘Tis a common proof, That lowliness is young ambition’s ladder, Where to the
climber-upward turns his face; But when he once attains the utmost round, He
then unto the ladder turns his back, Looks unto the clouds, scorning the base
degrees By which he did ascend.

 

[suckerforred]

...
You soft pedalled on your point about NZRU - they derive considerably more benefit (at least in rugby) than we do and have done over much longer by accessing the most talented from the island nations ...

Was going to say something along these lines but didn't want to listen to the howling and list of Wallabies with islander heritage again.

 

[daz]

For long term viability and medium term success the administration needs decapitation and rebuilding from the ground up: not camps for spoilt brats.

I am going to regret adding to this absolutely pathetic thread, but sadly I am unable to help myself. Yes, I am aware of the irony.

I did just want to pick up on this particular tidbit above. Are you saying that if I can afford to send my son to this camp, and he shows sufficient interest and talent to make attending worthwhile (from both a learning, discipline and development aspect), that he is by default a spoiled brat? They all are?

Additionally, I am adding to the woes of the ARU and the national long term interests of the game in general by (through no fault of mine or my son's) taking advantage of an offer that Joe Average from (insert the lower socio-economic suburb of choice) perhaps cannot?

I'm not able to say what I want to say without breaking about 4 of the G&GR forum rules, which perhaps gives you an idea of where I'm going with this.

Barbarian, I got your back mate. Agree with everything you said. It's a camp. It's targeting kids in a rugby nursey area where the ARU traditionally gets a high percentage of it's player pool. With the meagre resources available, the ARU is trying to get the best bang for it's buck. Yes, it would be great to do this in Footscray and Darwin and Tora-bloody-Tora one day, and it would be awesome to catch every person in Australia and beyond who wants to be a professional rugby player and maybe get a Gold jersey one day.

But they can't just yet because....they don't have the cash.

What are we arguing about again?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Which of the contracted 32 ARU players (thats their only pool) came from these "traditional" nursery areas in Sydney?

 

[suckerforred]

.... Are you saying that if I can afford to send my son to this camp, and he shows sufficient interest and talent to make attending worthwhile (from both a learning, discipline and development aspect), that he is by default a spoiled brat? They all are?

Additionally, I am adding to the woes of the ARU and the national long term interests of the game in general by (through no fault of mine or my son's) taking advantage of an offer that Joe Average from (insert the lower socio-economic suburb of choice) perhaps cannot?
......

Daz, since you are a learned reader and contributer to this forum I am sure that you would only send your son if he had/does show the required talent. The point that IS, myself and others are trying in vain to make is - a) because of the location, cost and construction of the camp it appears to be targeted at a particular demographic rather than a particular purpose (subtle difference but it is there); b) how much 'previous experience in contact sports of high ability at an elite level' can you expect a buch of 11 year olds to have; and c)you can not rely on all parents to be as sensible as you when it come to nominating kids for this type of holiday child care.

You, Barbar and me are just going to have to agree to disagree as to wether or not this type of 'camp' has been appropiately handled by the ARU, as I can see us never agreeing.

 

[Man on the hill]

Given that the U10 age group does not have a state championships and that U10 - U12 play a modified game of pathway rugby - having any player meet the criteria of elite and experienced seems a big stretch!