WoodyWoodsman
Sydney Middleton (9)
One week ago, you said this...... now you are saying 3 grades and colts. A great turnaround in 5 days!
Sydney Subbies 2022
- Thread starter Pfitzy
- Start date
Waterloo_Ned
Herbert Moran (7)
Yes I spoke to Blacktown about a fixture during the year and he said there numbers are good.
Waterloo_Ned
Herbert Moran (7)
The Subbies Board need to stand down over some of their decisions the last few years. Personally I am shocked there has not been more media attention towards it calling for the committee to stand down. The inconsistencies in their treatment of clubs like Barker, Lindfield and Knox, compared to their treatment of Beecroft, Epping, Redfield and Balmain over the years is laughable.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Keen to hear your thoughts on that.
Beecroft dropped 3 Divisions and won everything available the year that happened. Now they're back with Colts and 3 Grades.
WoodyWoodsman
Sydney Middleton (9)
It’s about the haves and have nots.
Beecroft dropped three grades but Knox didn’t have to do the same.
The name of the game is rugby and that should be first and foremost. The understanding of an individual club’s intricacies are not considered.
Someone with Epping knowledge might be able to answer this:
Didn’t Epping bail Subbies out a few years back by entering two teams in the Radford Cup to ensure a competition would go ahead?
Didn’t Epping stay up in Division 2 a couple of years back despite running last to save Subbies relegate two clubs, even though the rebuild would hav helped?
Is Epping now running 1/2 grade in Division 4, two grades in Halligans or someone else’s slot in Div 2, and colts in Radford Cup?
The difference is that my mail says that Epping have all teams required to stay in Div 2 (and were closer than most when they gave subbies an honest update earlier in the year) and now will risk losing them due to subbies incompetence. Willing to bet that they will end up in a better position than quite a few div 2 teams numbers wise in 20 22. I guess the moral to the story is to be a private school old boys team or lie through your teeth if you want to get anywhere with subbies
Waterloo_Ned
Herbert Moran (7)
Division premiers tip?
Div 1 - Drummoyne
Div 2 - Newport
Div 4 - Harbour
Div 5 - Brothers
Div 1 - Drummoyne
Div 2 - Newport
Div 4 - Harbour
Div 5 - Brothers
WoodyWoodsman
Sydney Middleton (9)
Woody’s take:
The Kentwell Cup is headed up the M4 to Lapstone Oval. The Mountains Goats electric backline will take some stopping.
The Barraclough Cup settles on the Northern Beaches in the clubhouse at Porter Reserve.
The McLean Cup finds it way to Epping Hotel to be drunk out of.
The Jeffrey Cup is headed down to the shore with the boys from the Sea Lice.
With the amount of clubs that wont be fielding the full compliment of grades, is it time to look at a proper restructure where competitions are more geographically based rather than asking someone to travel from the Blue Mountains across to Waverley, or from Wakehurst to Burraneer? We ask our players to front up $300+ in fees and apparel each year then add to that the KMs and time racked up getting to and from the games. It's a lot to ask to get your average punter to want to commit to this from a money and a time perspective.
We cant fix the monetary side, but we can surely have a look at our competition structure to make it more locally based.
The idea...
3 areas - Northern Suburbs, Inner City/South and North/North West. Grades/Divisions are broken up from there.
Obviously a Kentwell/Burke/Barraclough side will be much better drilled and outclass a lesser side from Meldrum/Jeffrey so it would be up to clubs to nominate their divisions and up to Subbies to police it to a certain extent. The draw back here is that there will be instances of "CLUB X 1s" playing "CLUB X 2s" etc and game times and locations being a little haphazard however the positive that there is considerably less travel and the fact that this system allows the casual club to play against teams who are on the same level (eg 3rds/4ths/5ths) as opposed to having Harbour beating the crap out of a pub level team in Div 4.
This is the mockup I came up with and shows we can get 4 grades in each geographical division and GENERALLY have less travel and a more even spread game in hopes of attracting more players. Clearly far from a dream in the eyes of a competition administrator however I think the positives outweigh the negatives in the long run for the longevity and growth of rugby in Sydney.
Radical change I know, still keen to hear thoughts......
We cant fix the monetary side, but we can surely have a look at our competition structure to make it more locally based.
The idea...
3 areas - Northern Suburbs, Inner City/South and North/North West. Grades/Divisions are broken up from there.
Obviously a Kentwell/Burke/Barraclough side will be much better drilled and outclass a lesser side from Meldrum/Jeffrey so it would be up to clubs to nominate their divisions and up to Subbies to police it to a certain extent. The draw back here is that there will be instances of "CLUB X 1s" playing "CLUB X 2s" etc and game times and locations being a little haphazard however the positive that there is considerably less travel and the fact that this system allows the casual club to play against teams who are on the same level (eg 3rds/4ths/5ths) as opposed to having Harbour beating the crap out of a pub level team in Div 4.
This is the mockup I came up with and shows we can get 4 grades in each geographical division and GENERALLY have less travel and a more even spread game in hopes of attracting more players. Clearly far from a dream in the eyes of a competition administrator however I think the positives outweigh the negatives in the long run for the longevity and growth of rugby in Sydney.
| Inner City/South | |||
| 1sts (3pm) | 2nds (1.30pm) | 3rds (12pm) | 4ths (10.30am) |
| 8 | 8 | 12 | 12 |
| Colleagues (1) | Colleagues (3) | Colleagues (4) | Colleagues (6) |
| Colleagues (2) | Colleagues (5) | ||
| Canterbury (1) | Canterbury (2) | ||
| Drummoyne (1) | Drummoyne (2) | Drummoyne (3) | Drummoyne (4) |
| Drummoyne (5) | |||
| Harlequins (1) | Harlequins (2) | Harlequins (3) | |
| Petersham (1) | Petersham (2) | Petersham (3) | Petersham (4) |
| Petersham (5) | |||
| UNSW (1) | UNSW (2) | UNSW (3) | UNSW (4) |
| Waverley (1) | Waverley (3) | Waverley (4) | Waverley (5) |
| Waverley (2) | |||
| Harbour | North Cronulla | Balmain | Comb. Forces |
| Burraneer | Dukes | ||
| Irish | Kings | ||
| Menai | Oatley |
| Northern Suburbs | |||
| 1sts (3pm) | 2nds (1.30pm) | 3rds (12pm) | 4ths (10.30am) |
| 8 | 12 | 10 | 12 |
| Hunters Hill (1) | Hunters Hill (3) | Hunters Hill (4) | Hunters Hill (5) |
| Hunters Hill (2) | |||
| Forest (1) | Forest (2) | Forest (3) | Forest (4) |
| Forest (5) | |||
| Knox (1) | Knox (2) | Knox (3) | Knox (4) |
| Lindfield (1) | Lindfield (2) | Lindfield (3) | Lindfield (4) |
| Mosman (1) | Mosman (3) | Mosman (4) | Mosman (5) |
| Mosman (2) | Mosman (6) | ||
| Newport (1) | Newport (2) | Newport (3) | Newport (4) |
| Barker (1) | Barker (2) | ||
| Chatswood (1) | Chatswood (2) | ||
| Redfield (1) | Redfield (2) | ||
| Mac. Uni (1) | Mac. Uni (2) | ||
| Saints (1) | Saints (2) | ||
| Savers (1) | Savers (2) | ||
| Wakehurst | |||
| Brothers |
| Inner West/West | |||
| 1sts (3pm) | 2nds (1.30pm) | 3rds (12pm) | 4ths (10.30am) |
| 8 | 12 | 12 | 10 |
| Blue Mountains (1) | Blue Mountains (2) | Blue Mountains (3) | Blue Mountains (4) |
| Blue Mountains (5) | |||
| St Pats (1) | St Pats (2) | St Pats (3) | |
| St Pats (4) | |||
| St Pats (5) | |||
| Hills (1) | Hills (2) | Hills (3) | Hills (4) |
| Beecroft (1) | Beecroft (2) | Beecroft (3) | |
| Briars (1) | Briars (2) | Briars (3) | |
| Raptors (1) | Raptors (2) | Raptors (3) | |
| Hawkes. Valley (1) | Hawkes. Valley (2) | Hawkes. Valley (3) | |
| Iggies (1) | Iggies (2) | Iggies (3) | |
| Epping (1) | Epping (2) | Epping (4) | |
| Epping (3) | |||
| Hawkes. Ag (1) | Hawkes. Ag (2) | ||
| Renegades (1) | Renegades (2) | Renegades (3) | |
| Blacktown (1) | Blacktown (2) | Blacktown (3) | |
| Merrylands |
Radical change I know, still keen to hear thoughts......
Ref_Ted
Ward Prentice (10)
Has merit. Not sure if I would keep a non geographical competitive division at the top, or a div 2 to premiership div 1 like the old days.
A geographical structure could help in marketing the game in each region with the competitions better focused in surrounding communities.
Kentwell Cup could become a Grade 1 trophy following an end of year play-off across the divisions.
All in all, worth thinking through.
One point to consider in these things is understanding how the structure would handle expansion and contraction or considerable growth if successful.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
I actually think it could be quite interesting and being broken into zones could offer some interesting opportunities. In theory you could look to link up with both the Hunter and Illawarra comps and run a sort of Club Championship with the top 2 teams from the three Sydney zones meeting the winning teams from that competition to determine an overall Champion. I actually think that would be pretty interesting. Engaging with the broader community.
As for growth (let's focus on that instead of contraction) as new clubs emerged you could split each zone into pools. Say each zone see's 1st Grade growth from 8 to 12 teams they could be split into two pools of 6. Home and away in pool plus a game against each of the 6 from the other pool for 16 games.
The reason I did all this was because I get the feeling like if it was more localised, clubs like Maccabi, Clovelly, Engadine, Dundas Valley, Fairvale etc. (smaller clubs, based in predominantly League areas where games are all played within approx. 20 mins of your home ground) wouldn't have completely folded.
Clubs like Campbelltown and Hornsby would have left for other competitions where they aren't forced to field certain amounts of grades and playing across 3/4 of Sydney each Saturday.
Clubs like Brothers, Kings, Oatley etc. wouldn't struggle to find players. All 3 of those clubs fielded 4 or more senior grades in 2015, now all 3 have 1 senior grade.
Just food for thought...rugby is the only major sport that is run across the entire Sydney basin at an amateur level. Most other sports play localised competitions and are far more successful as a result (i.e. league play within districts no larger than a 20 min drive from the home field, soccer play within associations again usually no more than a 20 min drive from the home field).
WoodyWoodsman
Sydney Middleton (9)
Woody Woodsman is a big advocate for change in Subbies structure.
I still believe that Kentwell Cup should remain the showpiece of Subbies Rugby and the top clubs should remain as Division 1.
I think below that, the idea has a lot of merit. In junior rugby, teams play a number of games and are then graded. I think a similar model could work in Subbies.
I still believe that Kentwell Cup should remain the showpiece of Subbies Rugby and the top clubs should remain as Division 1.
I think below that, the idea has a lot of merit. In junior rugby, teams play a number of games and are then graded. I think a similar model could work in Subbies.
So let me get this straight- looking at the draw, there are only 5 teams playing in the div 2 4th grade comp, one of which is Epping who have, through subbies "wisdom", been graded in div 4. They are also making up the numbers in 3rd grade, and from what I can see there is no radford comp for the colts team they busted their arses getting together. Short sighted thinking- Well done Subbies- slow clap. Why undermine the only club in the area, especially with Eastwood's imminent move to Castle Hill?
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I like it @Mangoman
Regional unions use a similar concept where smaller towns aren't always going to be able to field 3 Grades + Colts, but the big centres will. They can't mitigate their travel but understand they're not always going to be in rude health every year. Clubs nominate and grade accordingly.
If it was to be organised like this tho, it has to be right down the divisions i.e. you can't keep div 1 as Sydney-wide, because that would quickly create the haves/nots situation we've almost created today. Div 1 risks becoming just another SRU in that case.
I don't think it would be a challenge in terms of aligning regions, but the draw itself would be tough to put together. Would be interesting to see the effect of bigger clubs playing against smaller ones, in terms of hosting and facilities.
Regional unions use a similar concept where smaller towns aren't always going to be able to field 3 Grades + Colts, but the big centres will. They can't mitigate their travel but understand they're not always going to be in rude health every year. Clubs nominate and grade accordingly.
If it was to be organised like this tho, it has to be right down the divisions i.e. you can't keep div 1 as Sydney-wide, because that would quickly create the haves/nots situation we've almost created today. Div 1 risks becoming just another SRU in that case.
I don't think it would be a challenge in terms of aligning regions, but the draw itself would be tough to put together. Would be interesting to see the effect of bigger clubs playing against smaller ones, in terms of hosting and facilities.
Ref_Ted
Ward Prentice (10)
I agree, Div 1 is also for aspirational players who cannot necessarily commit to the training etc of SRU.
It would be a completely independent competition with more in common with SRU than a regional Subbies comp.
Do we just undo the 1993 second division merge into Subbies? Then grade can have their relegation system again.