Sydney Subbies 2022

[Pfitzy]

Would be ridiculous to have a 6 team second division, I think they should move St pats and hunters hill into 1st Div to make a 10 team comp and then combine Div 2 and 3, would be much more beneficial for all.

Interesting idea. Only issue: you'd need an 18-week season for Div 1 and I'm not sure anyone is signing up for that after a few years of 14 weeks.

So "beneficial for all" is a long bow to draw when player commitment is already drifting and has been for years. As things open up, more players will be looking to head off on holidays and overseas weddings etc.

Div 2 and 3 might see some casualties that drop below 3 grades, so even combinging them might not end up with more than 8 clubs. Nobody really knows - even the clubs who are nervous about numbers.

 

[BundyBear]

This is what I think it will be:

Division 1
Blue Mountains
Colleagues
Drummoyne
Forest
Mosman
Knox
Petersham
Waverly

Division 2
Hunters Hill
St Pats
Newport
UNSW
Lindfield
Epping/Hills

Division 3
Epping/Hills
Barker Old Boys
Old Iggies
Beecroft
Briars
Hawkesbury Valley
Western Raptors
Harlequins
Redfield Old Boys
Renegades

Division 4
Hawkesbury Ag College
Blacktown
Renegades
Northern Saints
Mac Uni
Canterbury
Manly
Oatley
Sydney Harbour

 

[BJT]

This is what I think it will be:

Division 1
Blue Mountains
Colleagues
Drummoyne
Forest
Mosman
Knox
Petersham
Waverly

Division 2
Hunters Hill
St Pats
Newport
UNSW
Lindfield
Epping/Hills

Division 3
Epping/Hills
Barker Old Boys
Old Iggies
Beecroft
Briars
Hawkesbury Valley
Western Raptors
Harlequins
Redfield Old Boys
Renegades

Division 4
Hawkesbury Ag College
Blacktown
Renegades
Northern Saints
Mac Uni
Canterbury
Manly
Oatley
Sydney Harbour

With regard to Div 2, I know HH and Pats would love it like that, but why would the rest of those clubs turn up to get belted 3 times a year by each of them.

The sticking point in the whole higher divisions structure is that. Why would a Div 3 team even be interested in coming up when they have to play clubs that should be in Div 1 multiple times a year.

 

[Pfitzy]

With regard to Div 2, I know HH and Pats would love it like that, but why would the rest of those clubs turn up to get belted 3 times a year by each of them.

The sticking point in the whole higher divisions structure is that. Why would a Div 3 team even be interested in coming up when they have to play clubs that should be in Div 1 multiple times a year.

That speaks to the larger competition structure tho, and the assumption that more numbers = better First Grade. In a lot of cases it just isn't true.

It also assumes a range of resources improve if you have more people involved, and that might once have been the case, but I see clubs of all sizes where volunteers are slim and players are almost FIFO on a Saturday.

 

[Pfitzy]

Division 3
...
Renegades

Division 4
...
Renegades

Not sure we can roll with 6-8 games per week without some serious scheduling alterations (and Colts!)

 

[BundyBear]

You are right PFitz. There needs to be a shift in thinking. Player numbers are likely to be well and truely down this year. Those with big junior clubs such as Mosman, Newport, Lindfield and Drummoyne will continue to flourish, however those relying on other factors are in for some hardship. I suspect clubs like Harlequins, Irish, Barker, Hawkesbury College could face some tough days.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

You are right PFitz. There needs to be a shift in thinking. Player numbers are likely to be well and truely down this year. Those with big junior clubs such as Mosman, Newport, Lindfield and Drummoyne will continue to flourish, however those relying on other factors are in for some hardship. I suspect clubs like Harlequins, Irish, Barker, Hawkesbury College could face some tough days.

Then, umm...there's the answer to the future sustainability of those clubs. Build your juniors.

 

[Pfitzy]

Then, umm...there's the answer to the future sustainability of those clubs. Build your juniors.

Which is great advice, but we don't have juniors, despite trying it twice from minis. It failed because the resources aren't there in terms of personnel, administration, or support from the governing body. Also doesn't help the game has a pauper's profile outside the stronghold.

There are local junior clubs already that we're trying to form bonds with, but then so is every other seniors club. You try to stand up another junior club nearby and you'll make enemies real quick.

Besides which, I reckon only a handful of junior players will go through to their local Subbies club. The good ones get sidetracked into the school system and probably toward Premier Rugby, and many will simply leave the game. Quite often, the seniors and juniors are separate entities besides, and there is often tension between the two.

I would be interested to see just how many of the Mosman seniors were Mosman juniors. I know of a few guys who play/ed there and drive within cooee of a dozen clubs on their way to playing lower grades at Rawson.

 

[Pfitzy]

That said, and looking at the clubs in the higher divisions of Subbies, there are 3 factors:

1) Juniors - and that includes relationships with local schools who will probably cottonwool them.
2) A long history, to secure presence in both the community and facilities
3) Your own ground, which is partially catered for by 2 above.

A shitload of money never hurt, either, which I'm pretty sure The Whales have covered

 

[BundyBear]

But every time a junior age group comes through, having 2-3 blokes from that group moving into seniors goes a long way.

Those with successful junior clubs up to under 18s such as Newport will make it very easy to transition players into under 21s the following year.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Which is great advice, but we don't have juniors, despite trying it twice from minis. It failed because the resources aren't there in terms of personnel, administration, or support from the governing body. Also doesn't help the game has a pauper's profile outside the stronghold.

There are local junior clubs already that we're trying to form bonds with, but then so is every other seniors club. You try to stand up another junior club nearby and you'll make enemies real quick.

Besides which, I reckon only a handful of junior players will go through to their local Subbies club. The good ones get sidetracked into the school system and probably toward Premier Rugby, and many will simply leave the game. Quite often, the seniors and juniors are separate entities besides, and there is often tension between the two.

I would be interested to see just how many of the Mosman seniors were Mosman juniors. I know of a few guys who play/ed there and drive within cooee of a dozen clubs on their way to playing lower grades at Rawson.

I get that it's a tough slog for a number reasons notably lack of resources. I noted you mention your crossing paths with Doorn at the trial. Did you get on his case about helping out the clubs west of the ANZAC Bridge not in the Shute Shield?

 

[Pfitzy]

But every time a junior age group comes through, having 2-3 blokes from that group moving into seniors goes a long way.

Those with successful junior clubs up to under 18s such as Newport will make it very easy to transition players into under 21s the following year.

Agree on all counts.

Wish I had an U21s team

 

[Pfitzy]

I get that it's a tough slog for a number reasons notably lack of resources. I noted you mention your crossing paths with Doorn at the trial. Did you get on his case about helping out the clubs west of the ANZAC Bridge not in the Shute Shield?

He's well aware of the challenges. He's a former country rugby guy as well.

However the cart leads the horse in rugby - without Wallabies success, I think we can all acknowledge that every level below is tougher.

The first job is making the Tahs successful, and that will hopefully contribute to Wallabies success. Get more dollars, drive them (the dollars) further.

Ultimately we need reform but with so many different unions in Sydney alone, it is a mountain.

 

[bowralhighlander]

Subbies Divisional Structure needs a rethink. Division 1 will have 8 teams but the rumoured five team Division 2 is laughable on all fronts.

Barker, Epping and Hills have all reportedly gone down to Division 3. Unless they decide to branch out to a 10-12 team competition, I would assume this would mean Blacktown, HAC and Harlequins will be playing Division 4 rugby.

 

[bowralhighlander]

He's well aware of the challenges. He's a former country rugby guy as well.

However the cart leads the horse in rugby - without Wallabies success, I think we can all acknowledge that every level below is tougher.

The first job is making the Tahs successful, and that will hopefully contribute to Wallabies success. Get more dollars, drive them (the dollars) further.

Ultimately we need reform but with so many different unions in Sydney alone, it is a mountain.

It is so much harder than people realise. This has been an on going issue really for 25 years. In saying that, I can't say there has been a pure strong investment in western sydney rugby. Throwing a game to parramatta stadium is not this investment. Why aren't we playing tag rugby union by NSW Rugby in PSSA?

 

[Pfitzy]

I would assume this would mean Blacktown, HAC and Harlequins will be playing Division 4 rugby.

HAC in particular were struggling for numbers last year. Think Harlequins were OK but using Easts Colts - not sure that is sustainable.

Not sure about Hills going down but as BJT said above:

With regard to Div 2, I know HH and Pats would love it like that, but why would the rest of those clubs turn up to get belted 3 times a year by each of them.

It would be a 2-horse race and that creates the danger of stacking from Round 1. Not that an 8-club division wouldn't have that problem either I guess, but a shellacking twice a year would be preferable to thrice.

Some form of grading system for grades would be an administrative nightmate across Divisions. Rugby League have grading but their squad system is much more tightly managed, involves a lot of money, and altogether reduces clubs down to win-or-die at senior level.

 

[Rucksmen]

Surely they couldn’t let a five team Div 2 go ahead, either make a 13 team Div 1 and everyone plays each other once then rearrange the following divisions

I don't mind the idea of two larger divisions taking the place of the top three, where everyone plays each other once . Assuming Blacktown and HAC do indeed go down a division, this would leave 22 teams in the top three. Pushing Hunters Hill, St Pats and Newport (Who I believe are strong enough) into Div 1, and then combining the rest of Div 2&3 into one, would make two 11 team divisions.
The shorter, one round season would also be a drawcard in attracting players who don't want to commit to as long of a playing timeframe per year.

This would look like:

Div 1: Colleagues, Waves, Mosman, Drummoyne, Forest, Blue Mountains, Petersham, Knox, HH, St Pats, Newport
Div 2: UNSW, Epping, Lindfield, Hills, Barker, Old Iggies, Beecroft, Hawks Valley, Raptors, Briars, Harlequins

I suppose amongst that div 2 group it would be a massive issue making only three grades plus colts compulsory. With Halligans around there would still be opportunity for the excess players from clubs capable of fielding four + grades to get regular games, if they werent being used to bolster higher grades.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It is so much harder than people realise. This has been an on going issue really for 25 years. In saying that, I can't say there has been a pure strong investment in western sydney rugby. Throwing a game to parramatta stadium is not this investment. Why aren't we playing tag rugby union by NSW Rugby in PSSA?

Something MLR are rolling out in the US is something they call a 'ball in a bag' (yes, ball bag tee hee) program where they supply all the necessary minimum equipment for touch rugby alongside instructions and coaching resources including QR codes to videos demonstrating aspects of play etc. All branded. Surely we could take existing programs and do something a akin to that but with 7s and/or 10s at a primary school level.

 

[Pfitzy]

Surely we could take existing programs and do something a akin to that but with 7s and/or 10s at a primary school level.

But do they have a school tie to go with it?

 

[bowralhighlander]

HAC in particular were struggling for numbers last year. Think Harlequins were OK but using Easts Colts - not sure that is sustainable.

Not sure about Hills going down but as BJT said above:



It would be a 2-horse race and that creates the danger of stacking from Round 1. Not that an 8-club division wouldn't have that problem either I guess, but a shellacking twice a year would be preferable to thrice.

Some form of grading system for grades would be an administrative nightmate across Divisions. Rugby League have grading but their squad system is much more tightly managed, involves a lot of money, and altogether reduces clubs down to win-or-die at senior level.

Hunters Hill in particular have ruined Division 2. St Pat's are strong (stronger than a few Division 1 clubs) but I can understand them not wanting to move up as they have not won the competition in top grades the last few years. You raise a strong argument. If the three reported teams have moved down, how would someone like Lindfield feel going out to get baconed by Hunters, Pats, Newport, before a winnable but yet hard game against UNSW. Then the cycle restarts itself. Try doing that three times and Lindfield will be getting beat by 70+ by Round 7.