Sydney Subbies 2019

[Rugby Central]

Great to see that they are aiming to stay in 3rd division if the structure stays the same as it was in 2018.

This is a risky move on Saints behalf although I think it continues to show that there are too many clubs in the area. In a 20km radius you have:

Knox Div 1
Forest Div 2
Lindfield Div 2
Brothers Div 3
Bobs Div 3

Going out to 20kms (by road; by radius would capture more) missing from your list:

Manly - Shute Shield
Warringah - Shute Shield
Gordon - Shute Shield
North Sydney - Shute Shield
Eastwood - Shute Shield
Hornsby - Central Coast
Mosman - Div 1 (20.1 km so could dismiss this one - by the car park it fits )
Drummoyne - Div 1
Hunter's Hill - Div 2
Epping - Div 2
Beecroft - Div 3
Old Ignatian's - Div 3
Macquarie University - Div 4
Lane Cove - Div 5
Manly Savers - Div 5
Chatswood - Div 6
Wakehurst - Div 6
Dee Why - Div 6
Dundas Valley - Div 6

"Just sayin'" I agree that Saints are up against it.

 

[Footyhead#2]

I don't think the board will allow Saints to stay in Div 3. Canterbury will replace them. Likewise Beecroft & BOB's will swap.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

There was a comment earlier in this topic that subbies are asking clubs to nominate for certain divisions.

I am fairly certain that BOB's and Beecroft will nominate for 3rd division in 2019

I don't think the board will allow Saints to stay in Div 3. Canterbury will replace them. Likewise Beecroft & BOB's will swap.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Well to contradict myself.............

Subbies have updated the clubs listed in each of the top 3 divisions on their website. HH down, Blueys up to Div 1. Beecroft down and Bobs up to Div 2. However Saints are still listed in Div 3

There was a comment earlier in this topic that subbies are asking clubs to nominate for certain divisions.

I am fairly certain that BOB's and Beecroft will nominate for 3rd division in 2019

 

[HeavyB]

Well to contradict myself.....

Subbies have updated the clubs listed in each of the top 3 divisions on their website. HH down, Blueys up to Div 1. Beecroft down and Bobs up to Div 2. However Saints are still listed in Div 3

.

That is just insane. We shouldn't be in Div. 3 let alone this "Saints" shambles. I play 1's and we go OK but we won't have lower grade sides and if we do it'll be the same core 10 blokes and they'll lose by 100+ every week. To be honest, I know some boys decision to play at all is contingent upon a division drop. Even if teams nominate to stay up subbies need to show a bit of foresight and leadership and tell them no. Its only a matter of time before some poor 50+ year old bastard dies playing for Saints against HAC or even one of our big boys. We came 5th and beat them 83-0. It's just a joke

 

[Heavyd]

HAC should be made to go up. Winning 1st and 2nd grade this year and the year before winning Barraclough.
3rd DIv will be a joke in 2019 if it stands as is with clubs in name only nominating with pipe dream recruitment results their only hope. Good luck to them but I can see nothing but clogging s and forefeiting.

 

[meatpie]

Completely agree. HAC will run riot in Div3 and surely it starts to become a safety concern. I am sure the HAC players would rather be playing competitive footy than winning by 50+ most weeks. Beecroft will be in for a rude awaken when they play HAC.

Likewise Bobs will seriously struggle to field the teams required in Div2, although I believe the top grade will be more than competitive. I am predicting a few dispensations (ie don't field a 4th grade etc, although it starts to question the integrity of the competition.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Meatpie I don't disagree with anything you have said. Bob's 3rd grade in 18 was a collection of former higher grade players coming back for one last hurrah! Obviously some of the colts from 18 will filter up the grades, but if a lot of the older guys pull the pin after this season then that means we could need to find an extra 35 players which will be bloody tough. I wouldn't cap it at 35 players either when you have weddings, stag do's and European holidays.

I think what subbies need to understand is outside of Div 1 is that everyone is playing for fun. Its tough to get people to training and play a full season. The commitment to full time sport is not there anymore. People want to play sport around their lives.

I can understand Bobs (Their coaching advertising indicates their intentions!) and Beecroft not wanting to be in 2nd division. Likewise HAC didnt have strong colts or 3rd grade teams in 2018 and their lower grades struggled in 2017 so they would not be rushing to move up either.

I think the only option is to reduce the number of clubs in divisions, or maybe a lower division club (thinking 6th division) can fill in certain grades where clubs are short?

Based on other comments is it really certain that Brothers or Saints could field four teams in 2019?

I think their will be radical changes to the clubs in each division before season 2019 kicks off

Completely agree. HAC will run riot in Div3 and surely it starts to become a safety concern. I am sure the HAC players would rather be playing competitive footy than winning by 50+ most weeks. Beecroft will be in for a rude awaken when they play HAC.

Likewise Bobs will seriously struggle to field the teams required in Div2, although I believe the top grade will be more than competitive. I am predicting a few dispensations (ie don't field a 4th grade etc, although it starts to question the integrity of the competition.

 

[Rugby Central]

Running an idea up the flagpole - so don't get angry. Haven't thought it through and figured the GAGR brains-trust could discuss.

How about lowering the number of grades per division. With strong Clubs being allowed to field lower teams in lower divisions. Clubs going through a rough patch can affiliate with the stronger Club. Not the perfect example but Colleagues and Convicts is some kind of model.

I can think of many ways it could go wrong and many ways it can go right. But maybe some flexibility from subbies in this and the currently missing attribute "forethought" could help rebuild clubs and bring players back to rugby.

Pros:
players have somewhere to go. Particularly the social teams
clubs can share resources where geographically possible
reduces risks of fat 50 year old 4th grader (speaking from experience) getting bashed in 1st grade when everyone else is injured

Cons:
stacking lower divisions
players could feel disconnected from own club
splitting match day revenues and home ground atmosphere.

I like to think I have some answers but my experience has been mostly in the top divisions so I can't speak for how it might be seen from Div's 4-6.

Over to smarter people than I.......

 

[HeavyB]

Meatpie I don't disagree with anything you have said. Bob's 3rd grade in 18 was a collection of former higher grade players coming back for one last hurrah! Obviously some of the colts from 18 will filter up the grades, but if a lot of the older guys pull the pin after this season then that means we could need to find an extra 35 players which will be bloody tough. I wouldn't cap it at 35 players either when you have weddings, stag do's and European holidays.

I think what subbies need to understand is outside of Div 1 is that everyone is playing for fun. Its tough to get people to training and play a full season. The commitment to full time sport is not there anymore. People want to play sport around their lives.

I can understand Bobs (Their coaching advertising indicates their intentions!) and Beecroft not wanting to be in 2nd division. Likewise HAC didnt have strong colts or 3rd grade teams in 2018 and their lower grades struggled in 2017 so they would not be rushing to move up either.

I think the only option is to reduce the number of clubs in divisions, or maybe a lower division club (thinking 6th division) can fill in certain grades where clubs are short?

Based on other comments is it really certain that Brothers or Saints could field four teams in 2019?

I think their will be radical changes to the clubs in each division before season 2019 kicks off

Saints and Brothers didn't field 4 teams this year... and if they ever did it was the same 10-15 blokes. Saints v Brothers 3rds and 2nds games this year were essentially the same teams going at it twice....

 

[HeavyB]

Saints and Brothers didn't field 4 teams this year. and if they ever did it was the same 10-15 blokes. Saints v Brothers 3rds and 2nds games this year were essentially the same teams going at it twice..

Only difference is at least we have a colties and team and a more than competitive 1's team, saints don't even have that

 

[Pfitzy]

Running an idea up the flagpole - so don't get angry. Haven't thought it through and figured the GAGR brains-trust could discuss.

This has been done occasionally (Colleagues/Convicts), and this concept fares well in country competitions where every town simply can't compete on the same level.

The big issue that Subbies has is adding teams every time you step up a division beyond Third. They've mitigated this somewhat by pulling back on 5th Grade but really all the top divisions should be:

First XV
Second XV
Colts U21
Third XV

If you get beyond that:
Masters XV
Colts U19

Otherwise it is just bullshit. Look at the examples above: "Third grade this year was a bunch of old boys on a last hurrah" etc. You need to be able to maintain a core in the face of attrition, without wondering how the fuck you're going to field another whole squad (25+ blokes) to keep you going at away games.

My proposal to Tim Richards in the past has been to localise competitions as much as possible, and grade clubs into a structure that actually works, allows Saturday shift workers to participate home AND away, and keeps an alignment for juniors that will mean we're not travelling across town to play bullshit games.

Never works. Who the fuck at Mosman cares when they're fielding 6 Grades + Colts? The game is in rude health if you look at these guys. Meanwhile smaller clubs just up the road are in constant flux.

 

[southsider]

Localising comps is so crucial to the survival of Subbies, nobody wants to travel from one side of Sydney to the other for a game of footy. If they localised comps they’d see a dramatic increase of participants over 2-3 years

 

[Footyhead#2]

Localising comps is so crucial to the survival of Subbies, nobody wants to travel from one side of Sydney to the other for a game of footy. If they localised comps they’d see a dramatic increase of participants over 2-3 years

Hmm so Manly Savers vs Mosman, Colleagues vs Convicts, Lindfield vs Chatswood, Petersham vs Briars???

That is certainly not the way forward in my opinion. The structure is fine, clubs just need to be accountable for their own growth & development.

 

[southsider]

Hmm so Manly Savers vs Mosman, Colleagues vs Convicts, Lindfield vs Chatswood, Petersham vs Briars???

That is certainly not the way forward in my opinion. The structure is fine, clubs just need to be accountable for their own growth & development.

There’s obviously room to move, Div 1 and possibly Div2 should remain Sydney wide which negates most of the scenarios you’ve brought up. But for just your regular run of the mill footy player who wants a run around you need localised comps. Localised comps will bolster playing numbers and probably to a large extent grow smaller clubs into bigger ones

Literally the reason I stopped playing footy was because the closest away game for me was 1 hour away, and that’s from someone who doesn’t work weekends or doesn’t have kids, imagine how those guys are affected. Why would I play union when I can play in a localised league, soccer, cricket comp when my furthest possible away game is half hour?

 

[Rugby Central]

I agree that finding a way to localize the competitions would be extremely beneficial.

By reducing the number of teams you may find cohorts of mates will move to another club. Most, not all, clubs can be broken up into groups of mates. Many don't have the junior or school group affiliation with the Club they choose.

It's quite simply a matter of mates who want to play footy together somewhere locally. Making the competition more localized is likely to drive some of that movement.

It would need to be planned well, communicated well and organised with a good lead time........well F#$K me....that rules Subbies out then

 

[HeavyB]

I don't know that the local comps issue is a big an issue as its made out to be. I know my opinion will be unpopular but a shitload of blokes flat out stopped playing because they were no longer allowed to make a dollar out of it and that has essentially eliminated an entire grade. The 1st grade comp in div 3 this year was an abysmal standard honestly. BOBs who made the GF wouldn't have made finals even 3-4 years ago.

 

[southsider]

I don't know that the local comps issue is a big an issue as its made out to be.

Depends where you live, if you’re on the north shore you’re pretty sweet, anywhere else you’re pretty fucked

 

[PapanuiPirate]

So I had a look at the clubs north and south of the Harbour across all divisions, with two clubs a bit tricky to pick (Blue Mountains and Merrylands are pretty much directly WEST of the harbour). There are 21 clubs south of the harbour and 25 clubs north. This was MUCH closer than I expected. There are skews in different divisions with all of div 3 being on the north side and both divs 5 and 6 having a heavier lean to the south side as examples, but overall it's actually well mixed across the divisions as a whole.

With all this in mind I propose the following:
Div 1 and 2 remain citywide comps. These clubs tend to be much larger and have the resources and player bases to operate on a whole city basis.

Below these, clubs are split into divisions north and south, so south division 1, south division 2, north division 1, north division 2 etc. This allows for the variability in club quality while going some way to reducing travel. Throw in some south vrs north rivalry with a final series of divisional champions playing against each other, clubs coming together to support their side of the bridge, could be really fun.

Promotion relegation can still operate as it does today more or less, with one of two possible ways of managing moving into div 2. Either the top club from each of the top north/south divisions go up and the bottom north and bottom south club from div two go down OR there's a play off between the North 1 champion and the South 1 champion with the winner being eligible to go up and the bottom div 2 team going down.

 

[southsider]

Either side of the harbour is still a massive surface area to cover. Dividing it like that does definitely eliminate the extremes of travel but would still include a massive amount of travel time