Sydney Subbies 2019

[The Burke]

Pfitzy are you saying Merrylands are also going to Div 4?
I wonder what the thinking is if that is the case. They have had troubles and it was suggested that they might not have good training numbers for 2 teams. It seems you guys and Lane Cove might have more numbers at the moment. Or was Merrylands the only club that was keen for Div 4 playing as 2 teams.
I wonder if subbies are considering putting one or more of the regular halligans teams into the 3 grade spots. They have done this before.
Any other info on how trials have gone. The Raptors? Are they Emus leftovers?

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy are you saying Merrylands are also going to Div 4? I wonder what the thinking is if that is the case.

That is what I'm led to believe by multiple sources. The belief is helping stabilise Division 4 with 8 clubs rather than having bye weekends like last year.

They have had troubles and it was suggested that they might not have good training numbers for 2 teams.

Speaking to their Secretary the training numbers are always a bit on the low side but game day is OK for 2 Grades. They have had troubles in the past, and though I can only speak of Merrylands 2018, there were no issues.

It seems you guys and Lane Cove might have more numbers at the moment. Or was Merrylands the only club that was keen for Div 4 playing as 2 teams.

Convicts are definite. They'll probably have over 40 guys on their roster for 2 Grades.
We're confident, having 35+ registered at this point.
Lane Cove were 50/50 based on front rowers (see a previous post from a Covie).

I wonder if subbies are considering putting one or more of the regular halligans teams into the 3 grade spots. They have done this before.

Kickoff times might be the issue. And with potentially 3 clubs in Div 4 having no Third Grade (Merrylands, Mac Uni, Oatley) and multiple Division 5 clubs having no Second Grade, Halligan Cup allocations will be at a premium. Subbies needs to step in here IMHO, because the kickoff times and locations aren't always going to suit the 5th/6th Grades of big clubs like Mosman/Waverley/Colleagues.

The Raptors? Are they Emus leftovers?

Their head coach is Pete Niumata who was at the Emus last year and played with them a lot. So I'd expect them to be strong.

 

[Pfitzy]

Merrylands confirmed as of yesterday. Div 4 draw coming up soonish.

Now we need some work from Subbies and the higher division clubs to get a Noice Cup running using leftover grades.

 

[Bernie]

So at this stage there are 14 sides in Division 5 and 6.
6 North of the bridge, 6 South of the bridge, 1 North West-Renegades and 1 West-Raptors.

Options.......

A 14 side competition with the option of running a 2nd grade.

A North and South competition with Renegades and Raptors each added to one of the comps. Option of running a 2nd grade. Perhaps request the regular participants of Haligans to step up-one north and one south would do quite nicely.

Splitting the sides non-geographically into those who could potentially field two sides and those who only want to field one side. So still having a Div 5 and 6 as per last season

As for us at Lane Cove, as mentioned we've had a regular 25-30 at training with i reckon about 40 making a least one appearance. Whether that translates to 40 regular players i don't know. Not being on the inner sanctum i would suggest we are in a position of one definite side plus playing a 2nds when player numbers permit.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Any word on how the various colts teams are shaping up?

It will be interesting to see how the 3rd divisions colts goes this year. Blacktown have a junior feeder club and with the bonus of a few away matches being close by they could be a darkhorse!

Has it been confirmed that Bobs won't be playing 4th grade in Div 2 this year?

 

[Pfitzy]

So at this stage there are 14 sides in Division 5 and 6.
6 North of the bridge, 6 South of the bridge, 1 North West-Renegades and 1 West-Raptors.

Collary are no sure things right now, so maybe 13 at this point

Raptors are 10 minutes from our ground so they'd be considered north-west on that basis

It is looking more and more like a massive division - perhaps with an uneven number of teams - which sucks arse. Being able to reciprocate pub visits is a big part of what we've been trying to build the last couple of years.

That means only 2 potential Second Grade fixtures across the year: Convicts and Lane Cove.

 

[Pfitzy]

Any word on how the various colts teams are shaping up?

It will be interesting to see how the 3rd divisions colts goes this year. Blacktown have a junior feeder club and with the bonus of a few away matches being close by they could be a darkhorse!

From the lower divisions: Burraneer want a team, as do the Sea Lice, and Chatswood are proposing 2 Colts teams! Lane Cove have declined.

Blacktown and Raptors will be fighting for Colts in future years as there is a bit of junior rugby in the area. It is one of the reasons Blacktown were slightly pissed about the Raptors in the first place: western Sydney has limited resources in rugby and often cannibalises itself.

Has it been confirmed that Bobs won't be playing 4th grade in Div 2 this year?

Tim Richards said as much yesterday when I asked him about clubs that will have free fixtures.

 

[HeavyB]

Hearing from an old head at poor old Saints they have 30 blokes absolute tops.

Very sad news for one of the great clubs - not sure how they play division 4 with those numbers but if anyone will find a way, they will.

Absolutely my favourite opposition club - wish them all the best.

 

[Pfitzy]

Hearing from an old head at poor old Saints they have 30 blokes absolute tops.

Very sad news for one of the great clubs - not sure how they play division 4 with those numbers but if anyone will find a way, they will.

Have been hearing for a couple of weeks they won't run Thirds. Neither will Merrylands and maybe Oatley and Mac Uni as well. So that leaves Briars, Canterbury, Harlequins, and Irish to fight it out for Walker Cup.

Harlequins will have enough for 4 Grades most weeks apparently. Irish and Canterbury unlikely to be short of numbers, either.

This is in addition to BOBS not having 4th Grade, and barely anyone in Div 5/6 being able to field 2nd Grade.

Grim tidings.

 

[uziel malifa]

Have been hearing for a couple of weeks they won't run Thirds. Neither will Merrylands and maybe Oatley and Mac Uni as well. So that leaves Briars, Canterbury, Harlequins, and Irish to fight it out for Walker Cup.

Harlequins will have enough for 4 Grades most weeks apparently. Irish and Canterbury unlikely to be short of numbers, either.

This is in addition to BOBS not having 4th Grade, and barely anyone in Div 5/6 being able to field 2nd Grade.

Grim tidings.

i play for oatley and we were told we were playing 3rd this year for sure the turn out for training seems to be a lot of third graders from last year lol and yes i feel real sorry for northern saints because they are one of the nicest clubs out there would love to help them out but i dont know anyone out that way besides a few co-workers who i have asked and they said no lol

 

[Rugby Central]

i play for oatley and we were told we were playing 3rd this year for sure the turn out for training seems to be a lot of third graders from last year lol and yes i feel real sorry for northern saints because they are one of the nicest clubs out there would love to help them out but i dont know anyone out that way besides a few co-workers who i have asked and they said no lol

I am loathe to say this, but maybe shamateurism had it's virtues. Across the history of Subbies pretty much every club has dirtied its hands a little. This is not about casting dispersion but looking at the evidence.

Some Clubs practiced it openly, others were on the sly and many outright couldn't afford it 9 years out of 10. The point is, if you look at the failing team numbers across nearly all clubs, it started the moment Subbies went officially amateur. As I said, it sucks to say but maybe we need to look at this.

I'm looking at the players that are leaving. The lower grades. These players were never in line for first grade so the player payment didn't concern them unless it was forcing the Club broke. Without the payments, these social players are being forced to play higher than they want, and often higher than they can play safely.

While I would hate to advocate for players to be paid again, it should be examined. Before we look at going back down this road there's at least something that should be tried first.

..........rant approaching

For the love of Christ, a Subbies First grader is NOT, I repeat, NOT 7 times more important than a 4th grader and 22 times more important than a 5th grader. Make a player feel useless and they walk away. More points for first grade, absolutely, but 22? WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!?

"For the love of the game".......BULLSHIT! Subbies Rugby, stop sitting on your fucking hands waiting for someone else to do your job. Step up or get out of the fucking way because you are killing the game. Here's a tip, if somebody from the Clubs comes to you with an idea....actually consider it. These people are fighting for survival, all you're fighting for is your free tickets to watch the useless, overrated, overpaid Horrertahs.

Here endeth the rant!

Happy Friday everybody

 

[Nath]

I don't think many, if any, 4th or 5th graders really care about the weighting of the games in club championships.

And on that, if you increase it, you encourage clubs to push players down.

 

[HeavyB]

I am loathe to say this, but maybe shamateurism had it's virtues. Across the history of Subbies pretty much every club has dirtied its hands a little. This is not about casting dispersion but looking at the evidence.

Some Clubs practiced it openly, others were on the sly and many outright couldn't afford it 9 years out of 10. The point is, if you look at the failing team numbers across nearly all clubs, it started the moment Subbies went officially amateur. As I said, it sucks to say but maybe we need to look at this.

I'm looking at the players that are leaving. The lower grades. These players were never in line for first grade so the player payment didn't concern them unless it was forcing the Club broke. Without the payments, these social players are being forced to play higher than they want, and often higher than they can play safely.

While I would hate to advocate for players to be paid again, it should be examined. Before we look at going back down this road there's at least something that should be tried first.

....rant approaching

For the love of Christ, a Subbies First grader is NOT, I repeat, NOT 7 times more important than a 4th grader and 22 times more important than a 5th grader. Make a player feel useless and they walk away. More points for first grade, absolutely, but 22? WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!?

"For the love of the game"...BULLSHIT! Subbies Rugby, stop sitting on your fucking hands waiting for someone else to do your job. Step up or get out of the fucking way because you are killing the game. Here's a tip, if somebody from the Clubs comes to you with an idea..actually consider it. These people are fighting for survival, all you're fighting for is your free tickets to watch the useless, overrated, overpaid Horrertahs.

Here endeth the rant!

Happy Friday everybody

Single most intelligent thing I've ever read on this forum. People may not like to admit it but the banning of player payments has had an absolutely enormous impact on player numbers. Not simply those players leaving, but the trickle down effect it has. The numbers are shot and the standard is piss poor. I play 1st grade in div 3 without issue whereas in the same division 5 years ago I would have been playing 2nd or even 3rd grade. Having seen a bit of div 1 as well, even that isn't real crash hot.

As for teams not fielding lower grades, I can promise you we (Brothers) won't be playing a hell of a lot of 3rd grade this year. I think subbies needs to look seriously at making every division, including 1st division only 2 grades and a colts. Have your firsts, your reggies and a colts if you can. The good old days of 5 grades being sustainable are well and truly over.

All well and good for your Mosmans, Colleagues etc to field 6 teams a week, until you fast forward 10-15 years and they have nobody to play against.

 

[Footyhead#2]

I think people need to stop blaming Suburban Rugby or amateurism for the drop in player numbers. It's a massive cop out.

If you could only attract players to your club by using money - it means you have a poorly run club. If you blame Subbies for your club failing, it means you have a poorly run club.

Take some responsibility for your own back yards people.

The subbies comps are 10 times better now than they were before amateurism. Clubs like Drummoyne, Pats & Balmain have dropped off as they should have and clubs like Mosman, Petersham, Colleagues have flourished... Because - as you may have guessed it - they are well run clubs.

 

[HeavyB]

I think people need to stop blaming Suburban Rugby or amateurism for the drop in player numbers. It's a massive cop out.

If you could only attract players to your club by using money - it means you have a poorly run club. If you blame Subbies for your club failing, it means you have a poorly run club.

Take some responsibility for your own back yards people.

The subbies comps are 10 times better now than they were before amateurism. Clubs like Drummoyne, Pats & Balmain have dropped off as they should have and clubs like Mosman, Petersham, Colleagues have flourished. Because - as you may have guessed it - they are well run clubs.

While I agree with you to a certain extent, the issue remains that there isn't the playing stock to sustain the competitions in their current format and those well run clubs won't have any opponents in 10 years, unless they want to just arrange Halligan's games against one another.

 

[HeavyB]

Why do div 1 and 2 clubs need 5 teams each? I can't think of any other completely amateur sporting organisation anywhere else on the planet that would demand that of its participants? Its a structure from a bygone era where there was an ingrained culture of playing rugby beyond school. That no longer exists.

 

[Pfitzy]

I'm against player payments - quickest way to ruin a club when the money runs out.

Similarly, when you have a cadre of players who all retire together, it will pull the rug out very rapidly. Look at Kings OB the year after their 4th Grade won a cup and then dispersed.

I've said for a long time (check previous year Subbies threads) that top divisions should be capped at 3 Grades + Colts

Subbies also need to have a look at competition structure - you've got some clubs with 1-2 grades spare every year, and then clubs who survive year-to-year on just accepting that some guys won't pay, because they're desperate for numbers.

Of course it comes down to how a club is run. But that is easy to say when you've a 60+ year history, your own facilities, and a shitload of volunteers in a traditional rugby area.

While I agree with you to a certain extent, the issue remains that there isn't the playing stock to sustain the competitions in their current format and those well run clubs won't have any opponents in 10 years, unless they want to just arrange Halligan's games against one another.

^^^ Truth. We'll get to a point where 4th Grade becomes optional in a decade.

 

[Footyhead#2]

In other news, good to see Subbies rugby in the SMH today.

Old Iggies have 452 people attending their 50yr ball tomorrow night! Good way to kick off the season.

 

[HeavyB]

I'm against player payments - quickest way to ruin a club when the money runs out.

Similarly, when you have a cadre of players who all retire together, it will pull the rug out very rapidly. Look at Kings OB the year after their 4th Grade won a cup and then dispersed.

I've said for a long time (check previous year Subbies threads) that top divisions should be capped at 3 Grades + Colts

Subbies also need to have a look at competition structure - you've got some clubs with 1-2 grades spare every year, and then clubs who survive year-to-year on just accepting that some guys won't pay, because they're desperate for numbers.

Of course it comes down to how a club is run. But that is easy to say when you've a 60+ year history, your own facilities, and a shitload of volunteers in a traditional rugby area.





^^^ Truth. We'll get to a point where 4th Grade becomes optional in a decade.

Very true. The "well-run clubs" are so easy to keep running well.... However obviously for whatever reason some clubs have struggled and for those clubs in the current environment it is nearly impossible to get up off the canvas.

I'm not even saying re-introducing payments is necessarily the answer, however I agree that higher divs should be capped and I'd probably go further down to just 2 grades and a colts.

 

[Heavyd]

I think people need to stop blaming Suburban Rugby or amateurism for the drop in player numbers. It's a massive cop out.

If you could only attract players to your club by using money - it means you have a poorly run club. If you blame Subbies for your club failing, it means you have a poorly run club.

Take some responsibility for your own back yards people.

The subbies comps are 10 times better now than they were before amateurism. Clubs like Drummoyne, Pats & Balmain have dropped off as they should have and clubs like Mosman, Petersham, Colleagues have flourished. Because - as you may have guessed it - they are well run clubs.

Love it. A well run club is defined by a club in rugby heart land fielding the prerequisite number of grades. Everyone else is clueless and disorganised.