Sydney Subbies 2016

[fkj]

to repeat myself for the 100th time

DIV 1 4 teams + Colts
DIV 2 3 teams + Colts
DIV 3 3 teams + Colts
DIV 4 2 teams
DIV 5 1 teams

All teams can of course field optional Halligan's team.

Maybe a minor amendment:

DIV 1 4 teams + Colts
DIV 2 3 teams + Colts
DIV 3 3 teams + Colts
DIV 4 3 teams
DIV 5 2 teams
DIV 6 1 teams

To add another grade and a colts team going from Div 4 to Div 3 would be a bit of a stretch for most clubs i think.

 

[Pfitzy]

Compulsory promotion/relegation for Divs 1-3 is also rubbish, just quietly. Makes a lot of assumptions about a club's success. If you win a couple of extra games than the 2nd-placed Club Championship side, you get the call-up? Fuck that.

 

[cheekymonkey]

This is my first year playing subbies rugby after years of playing basketball.
What does everyone think of a structure like this?

Div 1 3 teams + Colts
Div 2 3 teams + Colts
Div 3 3 teams
Div 4 2 teams
Div 5 2 teams
Div 6 1 Team

I'd also limit the number of teams a club can have. So Colleagues for example could only have 4 teams total and the rest of their players would have to play for other clubs. The goal would be to spread players across to other clubs.

Just a rough proposal but I think if you are going to have divisions, you want the movement of clubs to be based on the talent of players, rather than the total number of players.

The other format would be just to have regions and each region would have First grade down to like 8th grade or whatever and clubs in the region enter their teams into the appropriate grade.
End of the year, you could have the winners of regions play the winners of the other regions.

Just brainstorming but it seems silly to me that a club that has 5 teams of average players should be in division 1 over a club with 3 teams with really good players.

 

[cheekymonkey]

Efforts at recruitment have been unsuccessful. Training in Glebe and playing at the school in Parramatta means you don't really have any 'home turf', and getting Kings boys to come and play is far harder than you would all think.

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I'm surprised KOBs have struggled to recruit. When I was looking at a team to play for, KOBs had one of the best websites with lots of up to date and relevant information. Some clubs such as Drummoyne and St Pats have horrendous websites. Also playing at the school seems like a good drawcard.

What are some of the ways successful clubs are able to recruit and is it possible to emulate them?

 

[barbarian]

I'd also limit the number of teams a club can have. So Colleagues for example could only have 4 teams total and the rest of their players would have to play for other clubs. The goal would be to spread players across to other clubs.
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While I see your logic I don't think that would work in reality.

What would end up happening is clubs would take their best 3 teams, and then cast adrift all their strugglers (like me), who are actually the heart and soul of the whole thing.

I do think the Eastern Suburbs needs a new team to compete with Colleagues. Looks like that might be Waverly.
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[cheekymonkey]

While I see your logic I don't think that would work in reality.

What would end up happening is clubs would take their best 3 teams, and then cast adrift all their strugglers (like me), who are actually the heart and soul of the whole thing.

I do think the Eastern Suburbs needs a new team to compete with Colleagues. Looks like that might be Waverly.
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True but then those guys could ideally join a nearby team who are in a division where their First grade is at the level of a 4th grade of a higher division, if that makes sense?

 

[barbarian]

I'm surprised KOBs have struggled to recruit. When I was looking at a team to play for, KOBs had one of the best websites with lots of up to date and relevant information. Some clubs such as Drummoyne and St Pats have horrendous websites. Also playing at the school seems like a good drawcard.

What are some of the ways successful clubs are able to recruit and is it possible to emulate them?

I think in recruitment success breeds success. Winning brings people down, encourages guys to bring mates along, and makes the club look a genuinely attractive proposition.

We tried to do everything we could, but suffered because we didn't really have a local 'catchment' like Colleagues, Epping etc where we could be 'the local club' for anyone living around the area.

So we had to rely on word of mouth, website, old boys network and generally the idea that people would bring their mates to play. When things were good this was easy, but once you start losing it's a less attractive product and that word of mouth becomes so much harder to get out there.
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[fkj]

True but then those guys could ideally join a nearby team who are in a division where their First grade is at the level of a 4th grade of a higher division, if that makes sense?

Ideally yes, but realistically for many blokes a big part of the passion for playing rugby is about playing for a particular club, particularly in subbies. Personally as a battler I'd be very unlikely to go and have a crack at another club if I hadn't made it into the one I identify with.

Players looking to see how far they can get in the game may be a different story, but that's not really the subbies market...

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy, that a great idea but has not particularly worked in the past. not saying it would happen now but going back to 2012 when Convicts played as St Georges 4th Grade team they ended up winning the comp by a long way which as I said may not happen now but you never know

Plus its tough on the club who then has to fill in for Kings 4th Grade, eg if you through Waverley, Colleagues or Mosman in their as that team then they wouldn't be able to be with their club at all throughout the season

Convicts didn't really have a home to go to. Most of the Halligans teams for the top division clubs are guys who either just want to have the odd game, and can't commit to training. That should be fine for a 4th Grade side and if they win the comp, so be it.

I think Subbies would be better off for the rest of this season saying to Kings play 2s and 3s and then sit down and discuss next year

While I sympathise with barb about not wanting to play up a grade, it is a better solution to have a 4th Grade spot filled by a Halligans team, than having Grades 2-4 play while someone fills their First Grade spot - or even worse, they forfeit First Grade every week. Completely unfair to the other clubs in the Division.

I think it comes down to 1 of 2 solutions:

1) Get a Halligans side to play 4s for KOBs every week, and accept that their top 3 Grades are going to get a touch up every week.

2) Let KOBs abandon Division 3 and come down to fill our BYE rounds in Div 4. The level at First Grade is probably similar overall (particularly with Blacktown's Fijian contingent), but the lower grades will be a different story.

Dunno, might be too late for Kings to survive this, and field more than 2 teams in future. I've been in that hole, and I walked.

They really need to bring back Div 5, big step up from Div 6 going from 1 to 3 teams

Agree. The step up from Division 5 to Division 3 was too big in the years when Div 4 was absent.

 

[SackRobbie]

Prodigy, it appears that Colleagues hadn't uploaded their correct team sheets when you looked a few days ago.

They now include 2015 USA International Toby L'Estrange & 2014 NRC rep & 2015 Sydney Uni player James McMahon.

I really don't get all these HQ law changes if teams can still pull this shit off. These two players are professionals.

Seems not all teams are treated the same by Subbies HQ.....

 

[SackRobbie]

I really question if Subbies rugby will be around in 5 years.

I agree. I think it will be gone within 5 years. Very sad but I fear that Subbies HQ haven't idea what they are doing!

 

[thetraitor]

Prodigy, it appears that Colleagues hadn't uploaded their correct team sheets when you looked a few days ago.

"Whoops".

I notice that Newport and UNSW still haven't uploaded any this season.

 

[Boci Levu]

Waverley juggernaut continues although they did lose their 1st game of the year in colts on Saturday. Apparently they have a former Welsh international in the front row that gives them a great platform. I'll be interested to see how they are placed after the 1st round with HH, Forest and Mountains still to come.

Game of the first round - Next Saturday 2/5/14 Waverley vs Hunters Hill - Ladies Day, just hope they enjoy the collisions !

 

[Prodigy]

Prodigy, it appears that Colleagues hadn't uploaded their correct team sheets when you looked a few days ago.

They now include 2015 USA International Toby L'Estrange & 2014 NRC rep & 2015 Sydney Uni player James McMahon.

I really don't get all these HQ law changes if teams can still pull this shit off. These two players are professionals.

Seems not all teams are treated the same by Subbies HQ...

This kind of stuff happens all too often with team sheets. I suppose it is just one of those things.

Don't get me started on the fact that are clubs are not treated equally in the eyes of Subbies. It is not just across the divisions, it is inter-divisional bias as well.

I was going to pen a piece and submit it to GAGR entitled "The Plight of a Small Grassroots Rugby Club" but decided against it because I didn't want my comment to blow back onto the club and the guys who are working hard to run it at the moment. I thought about keeping it anonymous, but anyone who knows my profile will work out which club I am associated with.

The fact that players jump from club (where there are common allegations of players getting paid) to another club enmasse just pushes my buttons.

 

[Prodigy]

My two cents is that players moving en masse has never been new and is more about the club than the player

If there is a mass exodus then its the clubs fault

not trolling just saying this happens everywhere and most times the payers always say that the club they are going to offers something that the others didnt

happened alot in the 80's between shute and subbies

I'm not talking about leaving en masse, I'm talking about arriving en masse

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

I don't really see the issue in letting KOBs drop down to 4th Division...

Sure it might provide some administrative difficulties but the current scenario is simply untenable.

Let them drop down which will hopefully attract some more players and they can have a late-season renaissance.

 

[SubbiesVeteran]

Tommy- that would be an administration NIGHTMARE

Its easy as the can just slot into the bye for Div 4 but then you have the massive issue for the clubs who would of had the bye

1. Finding a ground if they have put not available for that round especially if they share their ground with another club or Code

2. Those clubs also making sure they have number available.. the amount of players that would look at that week they have the bye and think beauty lets go away for the weekend or lets go and do something else it would be a nightmare trying to fix that

Also I know this sounds bad but what about the other clubs in Div 3 who then don't get to play Kings? they all look to that week and think here we go lets try and get some For and Against this week rather than not receive ANY points with it now being a bye

 

[The Grass Cutter]

Also I know this sounds bad but what about the other clubs in Div 3 who then don't get to play Kings? they all look to that week and think here we go lets try and get some For and Against this week rather than not receive ANY points with it now being a bye

No, you're absolutely correct in saying this. Last year, Penrith fielded a 1st colts team for the first two weeks of the season, and then dropped down one grade (1st colts in 2nd colts competition, etc.) for the remainder of the season.

Every 1st colts fixture vs. Penrith the rest of the season was listed as an automatic bonus point win (i.e. 28-0). As I recall, the first two fixtures they had that season (which I believe were 100+ point results vs. Sydney Uni and Manly) were altered to 28-0 to be in line with the rest of the competition, although individual point scoring tallies were kept intact. I could be remembering this incorrectly, however, since I can't find an archive of last year's colts results/table.

So long story short, each team still got the 5 points they would have received playing the fixture anyway, which is how I assume it would be handled here.

Regardless, we were certainly quite frustrated at not being able to play this fixture against Penrith, for the exact reason you mention (getting a season-ending knee injury in the replacement fixture we scheduled was icing on the cake).

When you're slogging it out most weeks against well-matched opposition, the chance to just run someone off the park, sporting or not, is something you look forward to. I can at least justify my desire to do it as retribution for the fact I copped it most weeks at school

 

[Pfitzy]

Tommy- that would be an administration NIGHTMARE

Its easy as the can just slot into the bye for Div 4 but then you have the massive issue for the clubs who would of had the bye

1. Finding a ground if they have put not available for that round especially if they share their ground with another club or Code

2. Those clubs also making sure they have number available.. the amount of players that would look at that week they have the bye and think beauty lets go away for the weekend or lets go and do something else it would be a nightmare trying to fix that

Nightmare? Jeez you're over-egging that pudding a bit aren't you?

Kings have the Old Boys' ground. All other clubs in 4th Division have a ground that they don't share on Saturdays I believe. The draws are set, its just a case of shifting them into 4th Div and ensuring a ground is available. If a conflict arises, both clubs can sort it out. They're grown men, not screaming fucking drama queens.

I've been part of a club where the fucking GOALPOSTS went missing for the first half of the year, and we made do.

As for teams going away on the bye - that may be the case, but I see Canterbury put two teams into Halligan the week of their bye which is a great idea. In between wet weather, Anzac, and three byes for our club, its hard to maintain momentum.

Filling those bye weekends with rugby won't thrill the WAGs, but it is better for the club.

Also I know this sounds bad but what about the other clubs in Div 3 who then don't get to play Kings? they all look to that week and think here we go lets try and get some For and Against this week rather than not receive ANY points with it now being a bye

Looking at the results for Kings so far, all 12 of their fixtures have been losses, with only 2 having a margin of less than 28 points:

2nd Grade v Brothers @ Roseville (29-10) = 19 points - Brothers scored 4 tries, so got the BP they'd otherwise get for a forfeit

3rd Grade v Redfield OB @ Kings (31-10) = 21 points - again, Redfield OBs got 4 tries, so again no real difference to the table.

The only fair way to then do things is move Kings OB to 4th Div, and get them to fill the gap in the draw. The clubs that would have otherwise played them in Rounds 1 and 2 get 28-0 forfeits to make up for the lack of game - and it could be argued that those would be the results based on what barb and others have said about the club depth.


In 3rd Division, there are two options:

A) The results of the bye are all expunged, with points removed. Moving forward, no points are awarded (as is happening for the Div 4 byes).

OR

B) The results are all changed to 28-0, with forfeits given for the rest of the year.


Letting a club like Kings OBs die because Subbies are fuckwits is a crime against rugby.

Anything else is grossly irresponsible from Subbies on both an organisational and player safety basis.

 

[SubbiesVeteran]

Pfitzy-

I get where you coming from but seriously some of your comments are what the problem is with the mentality of some people on this forum

in no way shape or form is that over exaggerated being a nightmare, put yourself in an administrators shoes from a club or subbies... Having been on a committee I can tell you for free that players at out club when they see a bye are gone on holidays or doing something else.

You drop them down you set a Dangerous precedence of allowing clubs to pick and choose during the middle of the season what division they should be

Its like saying if for arguments sake Lindfield after moving up to Div 1 were getting absolutely belted in every grade every week and then said ok lets just move back to Div 2
Now I know its a totally different scenario but clubs could then say that they are struggling for numbers and that's what's causing the score line margins and then being able to just move on back down when ever they choose

Now I don't want to see Kings disintegrate as much as anyone but you do need to take some responsibility as a club, they could and should have stood up at the Subbies Gradings Night that's held 2 weeks out from the Comp and put their hands up and said we don't have numbers we need to drop down, now I know this for a fact as I have seen other clubs do this in the past

Kings should be left in Div 3 for Now, Should have to field from 2nd Grade down and Forfeit 1st Grade and this will save player safety

If you take them out of Div 3 you not only as said before that subbies leave themselves open whilst also leaving a Higher Division 1 short

Subbies are in a Lose lose Situation hear and in my opinion cop way to much slack over shit like this before clubs cant take initiative at the start of the season and swallow their pride and say they are struggling