Sydney Subbies 2016

[Tommy Tudehope]

Here are five things I would do in 2016 to improve the Subbies competition we all love and love to bemoan.

1. Bite the bullet and reduce the number of teams in each respective division and competition. Clubs are stretched and player numbers are dropping. If a club has a surplus of teams i.e Mosman and the like, they go into Halligans (read next point).

2. Scrap Division six. Current Div six sides move up to Div 5 into a two team comp. In circumstances where a club can't field two teams (even after having Tim Richards on the blower) it is filled by a Halligans team.

3. The entry level competition becomes a new Halligan Cup fixture which can be played mid-week or on Saturday. Any team in the west gets their affiliation for free.

4. Colts only compulsory for Div 1. The conventional wisdom that clubs will grow by having a colts side is wrong in my opinion. Guys will stick around because of a club-wide culture rather than having segregated teams based on age.

5. To compliment the Cowboy Cup, introduce a new geographic FA Cup style competition. No - it won't mean (that many) more games. Points are accumulated throughout the season based on 1st-grade results, tries scored and for and against. At the end of the season the top 4 teams in each zone (east/south, west, north shore/beaches and north-west play off in a semi-final style system.

Thoughts?

 

[Prodigy]

Here are five things I would do in 2016 to improve the Subbies competition we all love and love to bemoan.

1. Bite the bullet and reduce the number of teams in each respective division and competition. Clubs are stretched and player numbers are dropping. If a club has a surplus of teams i.e Mosman and the like, they go into Halligans (read next point).

2. Scrap Division six. Current Div six sides move up to Div 5 into a two team comp. In circumstances where a club can't field two teams (even after having Tim Richards on the blower) it is filled by a Halligans team.

3. The entry level competition becomes a new Halligan Cup fixture which can be played mid-week or on Saturday. Any team in the west gets their affiliation for free.

4. Colts only compulsory for Div 1. The conventional wisdom that clubs will grow by having a colts side is wrong in my opinion. Guys will stick around because of a club-wide culture rather than having segregated teams based on age.

5. To compliment the Cowboy Cup, introduce a new geographic FA Cup style competition. No - it won't mean (that many) more games. Points are accumulated throughout the season based on 1st-grade results, tries scored and for and against. At the end of the season the top 4 teams in each zone (east/south, west, north shore/beaches and north-west play off in a semi-final style system.

Thoughts?

I thought I'd respond to each point individually.
1. Absolutely agree. The notion that 'this is the way we have always done it' is something that may bring Subbies to its knees. I think that they need to take a much more consultative approach to how Subbies is run and organised.
Personally, I believe that Division 1 should be 4 grades & colts; Division 2 should be 4 grades & colts (not compulsory though); Division 3 - 4 grades; Division 4 - 3 grades; Division 5 - 2 grades; Division 6 - 1 grade.

2. Disagree - keep Division 6, but not with as many clubs. Look at clubs that consistently field a team in Halligans and they move to Division 5. I know what you're saying about the Halligans team filling in, but it disadvantages at least one club who doesn't get to play home games or separate their grades.

3. I've got no problem here, however what happens when only 1 or 2 teams join?

4. Aaaahhhh, the Redfield issue. I've been told that this was the response that your club gave after winning the Club Champs and not wanting to go up to Div 2, despite probably being able to field a colts team. However, I agree with you. I think Div 2 should be optional Colts, however make their CC points value higher to entice motivated clubs to have colts.
Having coached colts for a number of years at Epping, it can be really hit and miss. If you get a bunch of guys who are mates and want to play together, you can build a strong colts team. If you try and put a team together, it doesn't work as well. Our successful Colts teams have had a solid base of mates (12-15 minimum) with others filling the voids.

5. I like the idea in theory, but think it should be optional. Why not make it a genuine FA Cup style post season. Nominate in August(?), Divisions 3-6 play in Round 1, Divisions 1 & 2 get a bye, then come in for Round 2. If needed, wildcard entrants into Round 2 if necessary.

I think the most important thing that Subbies do at the end of 2016 is really consult the clubs about what is achievable and take it on board. It should be an Open Forum for 2 x Club Executives and the Club Coach.

I'd also love to see Subbies add an Over 35's competition to its roster. Not sure of how it would work, but possibly played on a Friday night or something.

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

4. Aaaahhhh, the Redfield issue. I've been told that this was the response that your club gave after winning the Club Champs and not wanting to go up to Div 2, despite probably being able to field a colts team. However, I agree with you. I think Div 2 should be optional Colts, however make their CC points value higher to entice motivated clubs to have colts.
Having coached colts for a number of years at Epping, it can be really hit and miss. If you get a bunch of guys who are mates and want to play together, you can build a strong colts team. If you try and put a team together, it doesn't work as well. Our successful Colts teams have had a solid base of mates (12-15 minimum) with others filling the voids.

Not sure that is the case for Redfield going up. We wouldn't have any difficulty fielding a colts team but why should we force guys to play in a particular grade based on their age rather than the mates they want to play with? As I understand, the main reason for not going up was managing our long-term growth. If we move up to quickly the move back we'll be just as quick.

 

[Prodigy]

Not sure that is the case for Redfield going up. We wouldn't have any difficulty fielding a colts team but why should we force guys to play in a particular grade based on their age rather than the mates they want to play with? As I understand, the main reason for not going up was managing our long-term growth. If we move up to quickly the move back we'll be just as quick.

I understand that, however Subbies have been pretty brutal in the past on clubs that win the Club Championship and don't want to go up. When Blue Mountains won the CC, they didn't particularly want Division 2 but did it because they had to.

I think it becomes a very bad look for Subbies if they have rules in place for some and not for others.

Surely if you guys win the CC this year, then you'll have no other option?

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

I understand that, however Subbies have been pretty brutal in the past on clubs that win the Club Championship and don't want to go up. When Blue Mountains won the CC, they didn't particularly want Division 2 but did it because they had to.

I think it becomes a very bad look for Subbies if they have rules in place for some and not for others.

Surely if you guys win the CC this year, then you'll have no other option?

It has never been framed that way when I dealt with Subbies. It was always - you won the CC, would you like to go up? See how this year goes with player numbers etc. We'd like to go up.

 

[Pfitzy]

It has never been framed that way when I dealt with Subbies. It was always - you won the CC, would you like to go up? See how this year goes with player numbers etc. We'd like to go up.

Well, probably framed in a discussion where all parties were aware you'd just moved up to Div 3. That does change the discussion a little.


As to your points - agree on basically everything. Some of the logistics of "filling in" with Halligans teams would be sticky, but I assume your basic point is that a club serious about establishment should be able to field a first grade and reserve grade.

That said, the existing penal system by Subbies on forfeits etc just doesn't befit an amateur competition. Clubs will do their best to arrange games and notify of forfeits or difficulties, but then hounding clubs that are being let down by individuals or groups or players rubs piss into the wound.

Clubs need to be more organised, but Subbies could establish a bit of mentoring from established clubs, or document the best approaches to this. For example:

4. Lack of committed coaches. Coaching Colts is a pain. You need to spend hours each week chasing them up, getting them to training, to the game, organising lifts, picking them up yourself.
.

Its something I'm NOT looking forward to this year as coach, and that is for 2nd Grade!

Colts can be hard there, because of the age thing and not everyone has their license/car like us old blokes. But this isn't the Coach's job: its the Manager's.

A club that can find managers to help organise players, and feed the coaches a list of available, injured, and shit-listers, is a huge help. If clubs get some strategies to help with this, particularly from established clubs, then it would help with the growth. It also makes everyone involved realise that many hands make light work.

It would also help if players acted like fucking grown men instead of zero-fucks numpties.

 

[Pfitzy]

5. To compliment the Cowboy Cup, introduce a new geographic FA Cup style competition. No - it won't mean (that many) more games. Points are accumulated throughout the season based on 1st-grade results, tries scored and for and against. At the end of the season the top 4 teams in each zone (east/south, west, north shore/beaches and north-west play off in a semi-final style system.

Thoughts?

To me, the season despite its shortened nature last year, is long enough. I don't see where you would squeeze this in, given finals are completing in early September.

 

[greg woods]

Division 4 will be an interesting one next season with Beecroft going up (to where I’m not sure) and Merrylands gone.

Ourselves and Mac Uni could struggle numbers wise unless there is a good summer of recruiting. Including over this summer we’ll have lost around 50 players in 3 years, mainly lads on Working Holiday Visas, it’s not sustainable so we’ll have to recruit heavily in the Eastern Suburbs over the summer.

Talking to a few of the Canterbury guys last week they are confident about next year.

Quins and Rouse Hill seemed in good nick numbers wise and both will fancy themselves for a crack at the title.

Blacktown will be an interesting one they really fell away and from what I’ve heard have some serious problems.

Briars will be strong in all grades and will probably be targeting 3rd and 2nd grade titles.

What Convicts do is up in the air, once Subbies copped on that they were using Colleagues 5ths and Halligan players as their 3rds they dropped out of the Walker Cup.

Could Division 4 be a 7 team comp? Is that sustainable?

8 team comp in 2016 with blacktown the big improvers and probably will take it out

 

[Pfitzy]

Anything less than 8 teams fucking sucks in terms of competition length.

Any odd numbers competition fucking sucks because of momentum.

Not that my wife would mind either option.

 

[Heavyd]

Subbies Redfield decision sets a precedent going forward. I've lost count of how many clubs Subbies have destroyed by forcing them higher against club protests around strength and depth. Only for that club to falter mid year and drop Divs the following season. At least that won't be an issue with the new Redfield Law.

 

[Heavyd]

Anything less than 8 teams fucking sucks in terms of competition length.

Any odd numbers competition fucking sucks because of momentum.

Not that my wife would mind either option.

Maybe St Ives will be there?

 

[Pfitzy]

Maybe St Ives will be there?

Similar to your comments about The Redfield Ruling , I think Subbies should establish The Beecroft By-Law which states that no club is allowed to drop Three Divisions.

That was, and continues to be, a fucking disgrace.

 

[Seymour Butz]

Still nothing on he website about the makeup of any Subbies Comp below Div 1 and 2. http://m.rugby.net.au/news/2016-Draws-and-Season-Dates-x-15834.html

Anyone know anything about which teams are in which division for 2016?

 

[Pfitzy]

There have been some changes in regard to Division 4 that I've noticed - the obvious ones like Beecroft going up, Merrylands disappearing.

We're planning on 4th Division and I'd say Canterbury, Blacktown, Briars, and Harlequins are solids for that as well.

Based on JSRF10's comments above, and other rumours, there might be a rough year for Convicts and Irish. Macquarie Uni are in a similar boat in terms of competitiveness, as they seem to have a fairly consistent player base but the difference between Firsts and Thirds is often not wide like other clubs.

 

[Heavyd]

And pre-season beings........ any early signs good or bad around the clubs?

 

[Pfitzy]

Rouse Hill Renegades had about 40 to first official training. Not bad after a bit of a fuckup with the ground allocation - thanks Hills Council you twats. No, I don't give a shit if you want to be referred to as "The Hills". Wankers.

Having a look at the Div 6 setup - get along to The Vales versus Macarthur Crusaders if you can in the South division. That should be physical. And by that, I mean brutal

 

[Aussie D]

Pfitzy, you heading up to the Coast to play in the trial against the Rams in a few weeks? Great initiative with money being raised for the local hospital.

 

[Heavyd]

I saw in Saturdays local that Newport are playing a hybrid Union/league game against the local league team which has recruited Former bad boy John Hopoate into their team. Should make for an interesting spectacle.

 

[grievous]

Here are five things I would do in 2016 to improve the Subbies competition we all love and love to bemoan.

1. Bite the bullet and reduce the number of teams in each respective division and competition. Clubs are stretched and player numbers are dropping. If a club has a surplus of teams i.e Mosman and the like, they go into Halligans (read next point).

2. Scrap Division six. Current Div six sides move up to Div 5 into a two team comp. In circumstances where a club can't field two teams (even after having Tim Richards on the blower) it is filled by a Halligans team.

3. The entry level competition becomes a new Halligan Cup fixture which can be played mid-week or on Saturday. Any team in the west gets their affiliation for free.

4. Colts only compulsory for Div 1. The conventional wisdom that clubs will grow by having a colts side is wrong in my opinion. Guys will stick around because of a club-wide culture rather than having segregated teams based on age.

5. To compliment the Cowboy Cup, introduce a new geographic FA Cup style competition. No - it won't mean (that many) more games. Points are accumulated throughout the season based on 1st-grade results, tries scored and for and against. At the end of the season the top 4 teams in each zone (east/south, west, north shore/beaches and north-west play off in a semi-final style system.

Thoughts?

Shouldnt the ARU be looking at the, in my opinion and ex player of 3 subbies clubs, steady demise of this comp?
The only growth is in one team clubs, pub teams essentially. How long until these clubs outnumber the established clubs?
The ARU should be studying why this is happening.
This comp is more important the the Shute Shield right now because it speaks all about the grass roots and if that goes well, rugby becomes a firm boutique sport.
Im sure the Wallabies being on the up will reverse things a little but the difference in Subbies numbers and clubs that have disappeared in ten years is alarming.

 

[Rugby Central]

The ARU should be studying why this is happening.

My kids local rugby union U6 subs = $150+
The local league U6 subs = Free

It's not exactly rocket science.

Get the kids in early, build the friendships that will last through the formative years and players will go where their mates are.