Sydney Subbies 2015

[Heavyd]

DIV 2 round up
Let's hope Blue Mountains 2nd grade stack is too late this time around. They did the same thing in last years comp when their 1st grade side came from nowhere to sneak into the semis and went onto win the 2nd grade comp.
BOBs end of year collapse has arrived like clock work judging by 80-0 and 53-0 lower grade results. Can't see them backing up For a double header against Hills next Sunday other than 1st grade.
Lindfield powering ahead in everything bar 1st grade and are neck and neck to take out CCs with Forest.
UNSW cannot wait for the season to end and struggling to put out troops,each weekend.
Newport and Forest traditional late season surge is on with and new boys Hills continue to impress and push for multiple finals appearances.
Hunters Hill 1st grade side is starting to show its age and like all clubs are struggling for numbers in the lower grades.

Will be a very interesting last 2 weeks.

 

[Whale berry]

It looks like Iggies are imploding in Div 1:
1st grade 8-78 vs St Pats (7th vs 9th on the ladder)
2nds 0-109
3rds 0-28
4ths 0-28 - assume they were both forfeits,at least their colts won.
Any word on the street, what is happening?

 

[Heavyd]

It doesn't get any better elsewhere.

Knox lost 97-0 in 2nd grade.

BOBS 2nds 80-0 & 3rds 57-0 when both teams were still in contention for semis.

3rd Div KOBS got done 122-0 and Oatley got pasted 97-10 both in 1st grade.

How will subbies spin this one....let me guess music festival?
Outside the top 4 all clubs in DIV 1 and some up and comers in DIV 3 everyone else is struggling with player numbers and interest at all time lows.

The brutal reality is some clubs just wont survive. A complete review and potential restructure of the Divs, team numbers and competitions will be required if subbies is to continue.

 

[Whale berry]

I guess where I was coming from was that Iggies have been a powerhouse in div 1 over the last 20 years and now ........

 

[Pfitzy]

Next year 1st Div can only be an 8 team comp, surely? And they'll be forced to drop 5th Grade at some point in the next three years, because one wedding or one buck's party and you can lose a heap of blokes for one weekend.

Then you're left with others making up the numbers, and more injuries which weakens you for the remainder of the season. At that point, clubs can collapse

 

[barbarian]

Also if you're having a losing season it makes it even worse. Blokes are less likely to play, attendance at training drops off, injuries mount and the gap between the top and bottom of the table grows even wider.

That's the story of KOBs this season. We started with a weak 1s, then injuries have hit us hard. Blokes who are normally 2s players (or worse) are promoted to a grade they are physically not ready for, and surprise surprise they get injured too.

Also our 4s are playing finals, so (understandably) are reluctant to help out higher grades for fear of getting injured.

I'm not sure what the solution to the problem is. We have to be better at recruiting players for sure.

I also still think the season is 3-4 weeks too long.
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[Whale berry]

When you are not winning games, the numbers drop off. Add that to the inevitable injury toll, it gets tough as the year rolls on.
Whether the season is 15 rounds or 18 rounds, those teams at the bottom will face the same issues.
The solution is easy (yeah right), win games, be near the top and guys have a different mind set.
It all comes down to numbers.

 

[barbarian]

Exactly.

One more thing:

The challenge is to present a product that people want to get involved in, and I think at the moment Subbies is a bit too homogenous in it's competition structure.

We have guys at our club who want to play 6-8 games a year in low grades. We have guys who want to play 24 games in 1sts. We have guys who can't play Saturdays due to work or family. We have guys who are old and don't want to play higher grades, due to work or family or physicality issues.

We have guys who are great players, but just want to fuck around and not train.

In short, less guys want to commit to a full season of top level rugby, and everything that involves. In my experience, anyway.

While I understand Subbies is run on the smell of an oily rag, I can't help but feel that sports like soccer do this a bit better, catering for the different needs of their player base.
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[Whale berry]

I think that is the beauty of Subbies rugby is that that it can cater for most types of commitment/ability levels.
The issue is reconciling between the larger clubs which have 5-6 teams(and can accommodate the different player needs) versus the smaller clubs with 3 teams which possibly struggle with the different needs of players.

The issue I have noticed with soccer is that you tend to play for a team rather than a club. Sure your club maybe the XYZ Rangers but you are only involved with the Div 4 B's team not much interaction as a club.

The AFL is Sydney faced a similar issue a number of years ago and Divisionalised their comps.
Buy this they place your grade teams in appropriate divisions.
For example if you have 3 grades with the 1st grade being good but the 2nds and thirds not so good, your 1st grade plays in the top grade, your 2nds plays in the 3 rd grade and your 3rds play in the 6th grade etc etc.

Advantages are teams play in an appropriate level determined by ability not just being the 2nd best team in a club, there are mismatches from time to time but why generally get sorted out.

Disadvantage is that when you play away your 3 teams are playing at different grounds against different clubs; makes it hard for volunteers and reserves (reserves can be fixed by allowing an interchange system, so everyone gets some game time).

The best solution for Subbies I believe, would be to maintain the existing 1st and 2nd Division structures and "divisionalise" the teams below.

 

[Heavyd]

Next year 1st Div can only be an 8 team comp, surely? And they'll be forced to drop 5th Grade at some point in the next three years, because one wedding or one buck's party and you can lose a heap of blokes for one weekend.

Then you're left with others making up the numbers, and more injuries which weakens you for the remainder of the season. At that point, clubs can collapse

I dont think we have the luxury of 3 years to make changes.
DIV should consist of
4 + Colts
3 + Colts
3 + Colts (opptional)
3
2

Excess players will lead to a massive increase in Halligan Cup games matches which cater for older more time constrained players.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

I will use my cricket competition in Sydney as a possible solution to the current problem.

Every player in the comp is given a rating based on previous performance over the years. So a player that scores 400 runs and takes 20 wickets in a season might be given a 1 rating and could only play A grade. That then means that clubs have to apply to be based in certain divisions based on the ratings of players.

This could be applied to all clubs across subbies. If a club has 4 players that have previously played shute shield then their top side would be 1 rated and have to play against the other 1 rated subbies sides across Sydney.

It is time to take a practical approach to the problem. Subbies really is social footy. If a bloke turns up to training then good on them. But the reality is that there is no obligation to turn up to training nor travel to the other side of the city to play a game of rugby when you might lose by 100.

It is time to grade teams (Not clubs) so that it is an even playing field and we can keep players on the park!

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Further to this!

Brothers have every grade bar first grade in the bottom 2. How are they going to keep players for next season if they have to stay in first division?

Another example where teams should be graded not the whole club!

 

[barbarian]

I like it OB, but have an issue.

What of the bloke who is a decent player, but due to time or family or lifestyle he can only play lower grades? He doesn't want to play full on 1st grade any more.

This doesn't really apply to cricket. Every grade is a full day thing, and you wouldn't get many people at all requesting to play down the grades.
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[Ozzie Bob]

I like it OB, but have an issue.

What of the bloke who is a decent player, but due to time or family or lifestyle he can only play lower grades? He doesn't want to play full on 1st grade any more.

This doesn't really apply to cricket. Every grade is a full day thing, and you wouldn't get many people at all requesting to play down the grades.
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Great point Barbarian and the cricket boys have thought about this also. If a player wants to play down the grades then there are restrictions placed on the player. For example a bowler might be restricted to 10 overs a day instead of being unlimited. So in subbies maybe they are only able to play half a game or every second game??? I think a better solution would be to make them play up a grade. So for example if you want to be in a social team you have to play that grade not as your bottom team in the club. Ie the BOBs and Kings 4th grade teams of the last few seasons should have been playing in 3rd grade not 4th grade.

Both our clubs have plenty of players in this situation who are playing down the grades because of personal circumstances.

 

[barbarian]

Yeah that seems fair enough.

Although differences in talent come through stronger in cricket. A 1st grade batsmen will score runs 80-90% of the time against a 5th grade attack. A top grade bowler will be way too good for lower grade players.

In rugby the differences aren't as stark IMO, and one or two really good players won't make the same difference they will in a cricket match.

And as a member of the Kings 4th grade team, it isn't easy to see at the start of the season how your team will fit in a certain grade. We've lost the last two grand finals, so it seemed like 4ths was the right spot for this team. We've had a better year so far this year, but that is down more to training harder (two straight lost GFs will do that to you).
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[Prodigy]

Yeah that seems fair enough.

Although differences in talent come through stronger in cricket. A 1st grade batsmen will score runs 80-90% of the time against a 5th grade attack. A top grade bowler will be way too good for lower grade players.

In rugby the differences aren't as stark IMO, and one or two really good players won't make the same difference they will in a cricket match.

And as a member of the Kings 4th grade team, it isn't easy to see at the start of the season how your team will fit in a certain grade. We've lost the last two grand finals, so it seemed like 4ths was the right spot for this team. We've had a better year so far this year, but that is down more to training harder (two straight lost GFs will do that to you).
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But what about the poor buggers playing threes and twos who aren't up to that standard? They are being forced to play there because of this fourth grade bunch. Even though your third graders beat us last start, it is not a good look when your clubs lowest grade team is almost undefeated and the top three grades are struggling 1) to win a handful of games between them and 2) backing up more often than hey should for more than one full game.

I know every club goes through their rough patches but this can't be helping he moral of those lads.


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[Rugby Central]

But what about the poor buggers playing threes and twos who aren't up to that standard? They are being forced to play there because of this fourth grade bunch. Even though your third graders beat us last start, it is not a good look when your clubs lowest grade team is almost undefeated and the top three grades are struggling 1) to win a handful of games between them and 2) backing up more often than hey should for more than one full game.

I know every club goes through their rough patches but this can't be helping he moral of those lads.


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Actually, it can depend on the culture of the Club. Most 4th graders have served their time. They play because they love the club and love the game. Those guys "forced" to play up generally don't mind. If the Club culture is strong enough guys play for fun.

I coached a team that never won a game and got spanked by 20+ more often than not. I still had to tell guys I couldn't get them in the side. Why, because they just wanted to run around with their mates.

This is part of the problem. Despite it supposedly being "for the Game Itself" they put so much emphasis in winning the higher grades. 1st Grade should definitely be worth more but it's hardly conducive to Club culture that a 5th grade undefeated season is worth less than a single first grade win.

 

[barbarian]

But what about the poor buggers playing threes and twos who aren't up to that standard? They are being forced to play there because of this fourth grade bunch. Even though your third graders beat us last start, it is not a good look when your clubs lowest grade team is almost undefeated and the top three grades are struggling 1) to win a handful of games between them and 2) backing up more often than hey should for more than one full game.

I know every club goes through their rough patches but this can't be helping he moral of those lads.


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It's a tough one.

Our situation has been the same for a few years. We have a core group of guys in their early to mid 30s who are now married and a few have kids. They don't want to spend their whole Saturday at rugby, and they want to play short, fun, low impact games.

They also all want to play together. Some of them are quite good, while a few of them are real strugglers. But through this history and camaraderie they have built something really strong in the lowest grade.

As a club we have spoken to them about breaking up the group, and distributing the players through the grades where they are suited (though the best 4th grader would probably just scrape into 2nds, there are no genuine 1st graders lurking down there).

But understandably they don't want to do that. They are all mates who have been playing together for years- that's the reason they do it. We break them up, they will probably walk.

Due to their culture and success we now have blokes who want to be involved with them. They have bolstered the numbers and led to the better results this year in low grades.

What it has created, though, is a club within a club. These guys (and I am now one of them, though not a 'core' player as such) have such a history and culture together that they naturally just want to be around each other. They play early and because of their families they can't hang around all day.

In a way it's killing the club, but in another way it's the only thing keeping us alive. So as I said, it's a really tough situation and not one that has been created overnight.

And I am wholly aware of how this looks from the outside. Though it's worth pointing out that we have kept the same 4ths for three years now (more or less), and got beaten in two grand finals by teams that have stacked their side in the back end of the season (first UNSW and then Briars). We've copped it sweet, but it has given us a fair bit of motivation for this season.

Our failure to recruit 1st and 2nd grade players has been our undoing this year. With CC points weighted the way they are that is a cardinal sin, and now we are paying the price. But it's a hard mistake to correct mid-season.
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[Whale berry]

Yeah it is a tricky one, the club with in the club can be bad but also can draw players in as you say/
It has happened to a club I was involved in many years ago and generally it was ok, the difference maybe was that these guys would play the odd game in higher grades to help out as long as it wasn't permanent.
Although it may have been detrimental in the long term as the club was on the slide and this team propped up things for a while but didn't really help in the long term.

 

[Pfitzy]

The cricket comparison works up to a point - and its the way a lot of rural leagues operate where one town can only put together a single team up to Third Grade standing.

Subbies have to start thinking about reality, including a Masters comp for the old boys so that the young turks can keep a competitive game going.