Sydney Subbies 2013

[en_force_er]

"Payment" at club level is often in the eye of the beholder.

Paying somebody's petrol bill and subs is technically payment but in my opinion ethical at any level of sport, as is giving the player a job that they are qualified for but would have otherwise had to interview for.

On the other hand, paying somebody a large amount or giving them a job they are under qualified for is crossing a line.

 

[Camo]

Simmo Green cheers for your post. You’re not the first and won't be the last to have a couple of pot shots at Balmain, so I'll do my best to answer you’re statements.

It's well known throughout Subbies and indeed at a Premier Club level, that Balmain pay certain coaches.

I am interested to hear what coaches are paid at BRC?
Last year we had two locals Matthew Gralton and Anthony Ekert as our 1st grade coaches.
Are you suggesting we paid them a single cent?
If you are you’d be wrong.
We had foundation members Buddha and Irish coaching Colts, Local Saffers JT and Murray coaching 2s – perhaps the money went there instead?

As you will see from my previous post we are not against paying coaches if that is needed but to this date we haven’t had to because people want to be a part of the Club. So your information is incorrect.

I've spoken with two players in the last week, who've been promised payment (to be determined) if their trial performances live up to their CV's.

Either you are having a lend here or the players you have spoken to are.
I can only think that you are trying to stir it up to rattle the cage.
It’s a good try but you wouldn’t be the first and no doubt the last.

We don’t go out and poach Shute Shield players. For the record –
this year we have had 1 x Norths Shute Shield player, 1 x former Waratah, 2 x Drummoyne 1st graders, 1 x St Pats 1st grader all contact us looking for $.
The Drummoyne players were looking for $200 a game – money that they were promised at the Dirty Reds in 2012 but didn’t receive.
The Shute Shield player was looking for $15k and the former Waratah more again.
We said no to all of them.

We can get players and provide them jobs which means a lot more than $ per game.

In 2010 when we were in Division 3, Drummoyne approached our captain at the time; and offered him $500 a game mid-season. We obviously were a little dumbfounded at the time, but to his credit he declined. He stayed with the club and we won the Division 3 First and Second grade title that season.

I can’t wait to see these 2 new trialists –
Can you make sure they come up and sign a rego form and hand me their CV’s!

Cheers.

 

[Simmo Green]

Simmo Green cheers for your post. You’re not the first and won't be the last to have a couple of pot shots at Balmain, so I'll do my best to answer you’re statements.



I am interested to hear what coaches are paid at BRC?
Last year we had two locals Matthew Gralton and Anthony Ekert as our 1st grade coaches.
Are you suggesting we paid them a single cent?
If you are you’d be wrong.
We had foundation members Buddha and Irish coaching Colts, Local Saffers JT and Murray coaching 2s – perhaps the money went there instead?

As you will see from my previous post we are not against paying coaches if that is needed but to this date we haven’t had to because people want to be a part of the Club. So your information is incorrect.



Either you are having a lend here or the players you have spoken to are.
I can only think that you are trying to stir it up to rattle the cage.
It’s a good try but you wouldn’t be the first and no doubt the last.

We don’t go out and poach Shute Shield players. For the record –
this year we have had 1 x Norths Shute Shield player, 1 x former Waratah, 2 x Drummoyne 1st graders, 1 x St Pats 1st grader all contact us looking for $.
The Drummoyne players were looking for $200 a game – money that they were promised at the Dirty Reds in 2012 but didn’t receive.
The Shute Shield player was looking for $15k and the former Waratah more again.
We said no to all of them.

We can get players and provide them jobs which means a lot more than $ per game.

In 2010 when we were in Division 3, Drummoyne approached our captain at the time; and offered him $500 a game mid-season. We obviously were a little dumbfounded at the time, but to his credit he declined. He stayed with the club and we won the Division 3 First and Second grade title that season.

I can’t wait to see these 2 new trialists –
Can you make sure they come up and sign a rego form and hand me their CV’s!

Cheers.

Camo, It's probably not in anyone's interests to have an arm wrestle over this. I respect the fact that you do front up in this forum constantly when confronted with these sorts of issues, so credit to you

We will have to agree to disagree, but that's fine, from my point of view that's a more productive outcome than the alternative

As I said I admire what Balmain have achieved in a short period of time and the way in which their promotion of the game has benefited Subbies

Cheers

Simmo

 

[Rugby Central]

Camo, It's probably not in anyone's interests to have an arm wrestle over this. I respect the fact that you do front up in this forum constantly when confronted with these sorts of issues, so credit to you

We will have to agree to disagree, but that's fine, from my point of view that's a more productive outcome than the alternative

As I said I admire what Balmain have achieved in a short period of time and the way in which their promotion of the game has benefited Subbies

I’m sorry to say Simmo but I beg to differ. It's absolutely in everyone's interest. You have directly questioned the honesty and integrity of another Club. Player payments are irrelevant. What’s important is that somebody is outright lying. In this instance it’s either you, Camo or the players mentioned.
This is Subbies Rugby FFS (For %$#@ Sake) If guys can’t be honest about this at our level then where is the line?

This is precisely the beginning of the path that rugby should not go down if it is to have any pretentions of integrity. Unlike previous posts which have eluded to skulduggery, you have made a specific accusation which Camo has specifically denied. You cannot both be right and be honest in this. The only mitigating circumstance is the possibility that the 2 players mentioned were trying cause trouble. If this is the case then Balmain have a right to know who is trying to cause trouble. You don’t have to publicly out them, but you should back up the accusation and contact Camo directly.

I know I will probably be seen as over reacting but deliberately lying and causing trouble for other clubs is the thin edge of the wedge. Got knows the ARU treats grassroots rugby like a joke as it is.

WE DON’T NEED THIS $#!T

 

[Simmo Green]

I’m sorry to say Simmo but I beg to differ. It's absolutely in everyone's interest. You have directly questioned the honesty and integrity of another Club. Player payments are irrelevant. What’s important is that somebody is outright lying. In this instance it’s either you, Camo or the players mentioned.
This is Subbies Rugby FFS (For %$#@ Sake) If guys can’t be honest about this at our level then where is the line?

This is precisely the beginning of the path that rugby should not go down if it is to have any pretentions of integrity. Unlike previous posts which have eluded to skulduggery, you have made a specific accusation which Camo has specifically denied. You cannot both be right and be honest in this. The only mitigating circumstance is the possibility that the 2 players mentioned were trying cause trouble. If this is the case then Balmain have a right to know who is trying to cause trouble. You don’t have to publicly out them, but you should back up the accusation and contact Camo directly.

I know I will probably be seen as over reacting but deliberately lying and causing trouble for other clubs is the thin edge of the wedge. Got knows the ARU treats grassroots rugby like a joke as it is.

WE DON’T NEED THIS $#!T

Whatever you think or whatever you believe should transpire is irrelevant. Practice your sense of morality somewhere else

 

[Rugby Central]

Whatever you think or whatever you believe should transpire is irrelevant. Practice your sense of morality somewhere else

Simmo, my frustration has nothing to do with some sense of morality. It's about credibility. Club rugby, from Shute Shield down is suffering a crisis of confidence. What will the players of the future think of joining a competition where people constantly snipe between the have's and have nots.

Players walk away from the game every year because they see what they believe to be unfair competition because of rumours flying around. Every week some clubs struggle to field sides against sides like Balmain and Drummoyne, solely on the belief they will come up against professionals so why bother turning up at all. Perception becomes reality and they get pumped.

This is about the survival of Club Rugby as the pastime of choice for players. If you have evidence that the system is unfairly balanced in favour of some and against others then it's in the games interest to shed some light.

As I mentioned, I don't care if players are being paid. By all means create a division of paid players. If anything it might shake NSWRU out of their misguided belief that the Shute Shield Clubs are sacred. Particularly when a number of Subbies clubs are being run better. But as long as there's an imbalance then contests will always be one sided and Clubs will just stop bothering to field teams. Why is that everybody wants to have a go when they believe a Club is paying players but refuse to name name's or back it up? Innuendo only, that this is going on, does nobody any favours.

I'm sorry you took it as some moral lecturing. For that I apologise. My intent was to point out that nothing will change unless people do more than just complain. Please note the last sentence that is at the heart of my previous post:

"God knows the ARU treats grassroots rugby like a joke as it is"

From a personal stand point, I don't know if Balmain pay players. The players and administrators I have met have shown good sportmanship and the only serious fault I have found with them is they ran out of beer before half-time in first grade. A far greater crime at Subbies level.

 

[Sniper]

Great attack on Simmo, Rugby Central. How can you attack simmo for not telling cammo from Balmain who the players are, when cammo is saying the same thing about other players from other clubs and not contacting their clubs.

You also say that you have no problem Balmain and other clubs paying players, but say players don't want to play against professional players. Then you say they are a well run club.

I played in lower suburban rugby for years and would have loved to play with or against a pro player. I would have loved to have tested myself. Sure I would be on the wrong end, but I would have loved it. I think Balmain knows how to pull a crowd, and if that means bring in pro players or even pay their players. But don't say you don't pay players when you do or don't even know if your club pays players. I doubt if cammo even knows if players get played. He is club captain, not president.

I know Chabel was paid $8000 to play one game last year (pre season). I over heard their coach telling a friend of his. The coach didn't pay him, so don't be mad at him. It was a great stunt.

And I know Matt Dunning doesn't come free. I heard from Hornsby that it was a min $600 a game. If Balmain arranged a job for him. Great.

The reason most people hate clubs is because of success. It's because they are jealous. They want their team winning. The biggest problem with Balmain, from what I have read and spoken to other clubs, is that they think they are above everybody else. They want to play in a 3rd tier competition, not suburban rugby. That is what I have read online and newspapers. And just like everyone is jumping onto Man United when they were winning, everyone is jumping onto Balmain.
The word from other clubs, is that they claim to be one of the oldest clubs in Sydney, but have been around for less than 10 years. You can't steal another club's history and say it's yours. Just because you have the same name as an old club.

But good luck to Balmain and all the other 55 clubs in suburban rugby.

 

[Sniper]

Any movement on coaches. I hear Jonathan Walsh is at Iggies. And Briars have an old boy who cam back from coaching college rugby. I think his name is Brad Sculley.

 

[Sniper]

Any decent coaches in Suburban rugby?

 

[Rugby Central]

Hi Sniper,

I feel I should respond because it’s obvious that I have been unclear.

1. How can you attack simmo for not telling cammo from Balmain who the players are, when cammo is saying the same thing about other players from other clubs and not contacting their clubs.
Simmo said "However, it's well known throughout Subbies and indeed at a Premier Club level, that Balmain pay certain players and indeed certain coaches. I've spoken with two players in the last week, who've been promised payment" That's an accusation that Camo is fibbing.

Camo said "this year we have had 1 x Norths Shute Shield player, 1 x former Waratah, 2 x Drummoyne 1st graders, 1 x St Pats 1st grader all contact us looking for $...We said no to all of them." This a statement of people coming to them asking for money. Camo has made no judgement of the clubs involved

2. You also say that you have no problem Balmain and other clubs paying players,

I don’t have a problem with paying players. I have a problem with paying players and lying about it. I also have issue with accusations being made against Clubs, then when asked for clarification/evidence, there’s nothing. This is the problem and as long as nobody comes forward then nothing can or will change.

3. but say players don't want to play against professional players.

They don’t. But according to all the Clubs out there, there are no paid players in Subbies. That’s the point. If there are then why won't anybody produce the evidence that Clubs are paying players and creating an uneven competition.

4. Then you say they are a well run club.
Until the evidence is produced that their success is brought about by other means, I can’t just assume they pay players. Innocent until PROVEN guilty is such an out dated concept, I know. I actually said they were good sports. Running out of beer during first grade is hardly brilliant administration.
5. I know Chabel was paid $8000 to play one game last year.....It was a great stunt.

That’s exactly what it was, a great stunt. If Chabel had played any matches that contributed to their Club Championships, that’s a completely different story. As it was, it was just good marketing.

Ironically, I’m actually on the same page as Simmo. However I’m less concerned with being pissed at another Club and more interested in shining a light on the inequities that exist in Subbies so that the NSWRU are forced to act. If people have a crack at another club but won’t back it up, the NSWRU will simply bury their proverbial head…somewhere…and pretend that nothing is wrong. Actually they will say there’s nothing they can do until Clubs make a formal issue of it.

The exchange between Camo and Simmo provided an opportunity to clear up a long held (mis)conception or otherwise about Balmain due to two explicitly opposite accounts, not just opinion. In my reading across several forums and comments on G&G regarding the payment or not of players, this was an ideal opportunity to get to the bottom of it.

Back to my original comment, I was not attacking Simmo, I was disagreeing with his comment that resolving this was not in anyone's interest. I passionately love this game and believe Subbies Rugby to be one of the premier rugby competitions (atmosphere, if not talent) in the world. It is facing serious challenges, not least an apathetic national administration. If we spend our time trying to eat each other we’re unlikely to be taken seriously by those higher in Rugby's governing bodies.

 

[barbarian]

Is anyone heading out to Hawkesbury 10s this year?

KOBs have entered a team for the first time, and are looking forward to it. With a couple of new Fijian recruits we are expecting a half decent showing......

 

[Ozzie Bob]

I think 2013 is going to be a very interesting year for subbies.

I honestly have no idea who is going to get relegated from Div 1 in 2014 but i think Brothers are going to run away with Div 2 this year.

I am involved with one of these clubs, but i think we are going to see a much weaker overall performance by the 'Old boys' clubs. BOB's and KOB's have both been relegated from Div 1 in the last few years and i think the bad year has had a big impact on both these clubs. Its always easy to attact players when you are winning, but one bad season can mean 5-10 years of bad seasons for clubs. I have heard that Knox Old Boys have lost a few players and might be in for a tough year.

The great thing about subbies is that it does go in cycles. Who would have thought 10 years ago that Waverley, Forrest and Uni of NSW wouldnt be in Div 1. 10 years ago Balmain didnt even exist!

I can wait to see the new recruits that clubs roll out and i cant wait to see which clubs supprise us and those that dissapoint!

 

[boyo]

Ozzie Bob, why are you wearing a mungo top in your avatar?

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Ozzie Bob, why are you wearing a mungo top in your avatar?

Mate i am one of those blokes who cant get enough of any sport. Love the Tigers, Tahs, Wallabies, Swans and Sydney Kings.

However wearing my old boys jersey in certain areas of town is a big risk hahaha

 

[Crashy]

cmon ozzie bob - I'll give you a nice retro blue and red jersey - that silky mungo number you are wearing is a horrific eyesore.
By the way, the BOBS should see a lot more youth up the grades and some old faces ( still with talent - unlike last year's 5ths!) in 4ths this year which should round out the depth nicely. Its nice to be back home in Division 2 this year. Will be interesting to see how Balmain go this year - Div 1 is about logistics and organisation as much as it is about players, I think they should do ok.

 

[Hisredness]

I've just noticed that a subbies rep team is playing in the Kiama 7's this weekend. Does anyone know what the team is looking like? Who's been picked etc?

 

[Funky]

The reason most people hate clubs is because of success. It's because they are jealous. They want their team winning. The biggest problem with Balmain, from what I have read and spoken to other clubs, is that they think they are above everybody else. They want to play in a 3rd tier competition, not suburban rugby. That is what I have read online and newspapers. And just like everyone is jumping onto Man United when they were winning, everyone is jumping onto Balmain.

I'm sure there is an element of jealously based on success, but I think other factors mainly decide of a club is hated or not.

eg. Are they are a bunch of pricks or not. Unfortunately there are some clubs like this. Having once been on the end of one of their rants / complaints to Subbies, when I rang Subbies to discuss they dismissed the compliant out of hand (at least until it was made formally) just because they are a bunch of pricks.

For my mind, the only negative experience I had with Balmain was trying to organise Halligan Cup games. The problem was too many people trying to organise, which resulted in conflicts, which resulted in last minute pull outs.

Maybe other clubs are sick of seeing Balmain big note themselves, but they probably just want them to get on with it and get out of Subbies.

 

[Fly]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...heads-to-balmain/story-fngr8ie3-1226560953535

Quite a handy player to pick up.....For free..........

 

[forwards4ever]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...heads-to-balmain/story-fngr8ie3-1226560953535

Quite a handy player to pick up...For free....

see post #40. This was decided around January. Believe Cross will not be back!

 

[HarryElite]

The excitement is building... after months and months of off-season and pre-season training... trials are upon us this weekend... Any teams going to Armidale the following week?