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Sydney Shake Up

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Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
Im not saying these arent good plans/ideas/hope dreams.
But how long have Penrith been in Shute Shield? 15 years?

Not entirely sure IS but I do remember travelling out to Penrith in 1996 when playing Shute Shield. So in at least 17 years they have progressed little.

If you want to develop something you have to make the investment. When the AFL moved into competitors regions (Sydney/Brisbane) they provided greater resources and bent the rules so the Clubs could grow. No such investment seems forthcoming from NSW Rugby.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
Not entirely sure IS but I do remember travelling out to Penrith in 1996 when playing Shute Shield. So in at least 17 years they have progressed little.

If you want to develop something you have to make the investment. When the AFL moved into competitors regions (Sydney/Brisbane) they provided greater resources and bent the rules so the Clubs could grow. No such investment seems forthcoming from NSW Rugby.
To be fair, there is a major difference.
AFL is more similar to Super Rugby than Club Rugby.
Agree that NSW Rugby should do more though.
 
T

Tahboy

Guest
When Penrith first came in they had about 5 development people working there at a big cost and no reward
 

Knuckles

Ted Thorn (20)
I am absolutely astonished. There are some very intelligent people who contribute to this site. And contribute in positive ways......for the most part.

But for the life of me, I simply cannot understand why you all think Subbies clubs are 'feeder' clubs to the Grade Clubs. They may well have been in the past, but realistically, that has happened since the mid 80's.

Anyone who believes the Subbies clubs feed players into the grade clubs is clearly deluded in my opinion.

What is also astonshing is the tunnel vision that is on going by pro Subbies people believing the Kentwell sides will smash the Shute Shield sides.....again, delusions of grandeur here seem to be clouding accurate judgement.

I hope Ole Two Blue reads this, as he will be able to clarify my next point.

During the trials, Parra played Merrylands (or it may have been Campbelltown). Parra smashed them. They played 2 grades, Parra used their 3rd and 4th grade teams and Merrylands used the 1s and 2s from the grand final last year. The scoreline from memory was extraordinary. Like 14+ tries to none or very little.

So what; you say?
Well you only have to look at the comp tables to see how poor the Parra 3s and 4s have been this year. Sure, Merrylands are 3rd division Subbies, but from how you all go on, it would seem the match up the clubs came up with should have been close. It wasn't.

Another issue that boggles the mind is the player payments to Subbies players. And how the current Subbies staff have let it go on unchecked for over a decade. I am sure it is either in the Subbies Constitution or it may just be a simple comp rule that any club who pays players will be removed from the competition.............. There is no doubting there are some ambitious Subbies Clubs, namely Balmain, Drummoyne, Brothers, St Pats et al. I cannot confirm they pay players, but it has certainly been alleged for many years in many parts.

If you wanna shake up Sydney Rugby, by all means, have a go. But please, pull your head out of the sand first..........
 

Knuckles

Ted Thorn (20)
If this proposed restructure were to occur the Shute Shield competition should be reduced to two grades along with U21 and U19. That way you can limit the hoarding of players and cut down on expenses for the clubs.

Now you're talking..............

And just play 11 full rounds and top 4 in Shute Shield for finals. Once that is decided, the top 4 go off and play in a 10 team comp featuring 4 from Sydney, 4 from Brisbane 1 from Canberra and a wild card play off between the top Melb club and the 5th placed Sydney and Brisbane teams......... remaining clubs could then perhaps play in a comp with top 4 Subbies clubs for promotion to Shute Shield..........

Just a thought and admittedly havent put a lot of thought into it, happy to be corrected wherever it needs to be
 

lily

Vay Wilson (31)
The comments on this thread border on the ridiculous. Firstly NSWRU cant even pay for someone to be involved in a media role. Remember the job title was a work experience job. Secondly they don't give a fuck about grassroots rugby. As long as a couple of clubs are strong and they can provide emerging talent then why help develop the other guys. Short sighted.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Now you're talking......

And just play 11 full rounds and top 4 in Shute Shield for finals. Once that is decided, the top 4 go off and play in a 10 team comp featuring 4 from Sydney, 4 from Brisbane 1 from Canberra and a wild card play off between the top Melb club and the 5th placed Sydney and Brisbane teams... remaining clubs could then perhaps play in a comp with top 4 Subbies clubs for promotion to Shute Shield....

Just a thought and admittedly havent put a lot of thought into it, happy to be corrected wherever it needs to be
I would assume that the stronger clubs would be flooded with new players, whilst the struggling clubs would lose every player in their club with ambitions to play at a higher level.
The gap between the have's and have not's in the SS would be terminal for the competition.
 

Knuckles

Ted Thorn (20)
I would assume that the stronger clubs would be flooded with new players, whilst the struggling clubs would lose every player in their club with ambitions to play at a higher level.
The gap between the have's and have not's in the SS would be terminal for the competition.

True. But if there were restrictions on player movement........like there used to be (I am proudly an old dinosaur) then this would be addressed.

It is interesting that the grade clubs have been referred to as District clubs in this thread by more than a few. Does anyone think the old District rules should apply? Does anyone think the current grade club super powers, Easts, Randwick, Uni, Souths and Manly would support the re-introduction of the District rules?
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Does anyone think the current grade club super powers, Easts, Randwick ????, Uni, Souths and Manly & Eastwood would support the re-introduction of the District rules?

No but it would be good to see those clubs form the new 3T - a good geographic spread. Create a new brand out west.
Then the Shute Sheild possibly get remodeled a little bit - I would love to see the Dirty Reds get another crack - they got relegated in '95, and in the '97 GF I think there were 5 Drummoyne players running around.
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
True. But if there were restrictions on player movement....like there used to be (I am proudly an old dinosaur) then this would be addressed.

It is interesting that the grade clubs have been referred to as District clubs in this thread by more than a few. Does anyone think the old District rules should apply? Does anyone think the current grade club super powers, Easts, Randwick, Uni, Souths and Manly would support the re-introduction of the District rules?

Could be good but that ship has sailed. With the payments made to SS players, it means that any restriction in movement would amount to "restraint of trade"
 

the coach

Bob Davidson (42)
Now you're talking......

And just play 11 full rounds and top 4 in Shute Shield for finals. Once that is decided, the top 4 go off and play in a 10 team comp featuring 4 from Sydney, 4 from Brisbane 1 from Canberra and a wild card play off between the top Melb club and the 5th placed Sydney and Brisbane teams... remaining clubs could then perhaps play in a comp with top 4 Subbies clubs for promotion to Shute Shield....

Just a thought and admittedly havent put a lot of thought into it, happy to be corrected wherever it needs to be

Given that most of the clubs are struggling financially they would need significant funds from somewhere to fly their players around to the intersate venues ie same problem the ARC faced.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Could be good but that ship has sailed. With the payments made to SS players, it means that any restriction in movement would amount to "restraint of trade"
So is the points system that is currently in place.
The AFL also has a draft that has not been contested.
It's only a problem if one of the participants makes it a problem.
 

the coach

Bob Davidson (42)
So is the points system that is currently in place.
The AFL also has a draft that has not been contested.
It's only a problem if one of the participants makes it a problem.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the "restraint of trade issue" is that the person has to be able to demonstrate that they earn the majority of their income from that source. Not sure too many Shute Shield players could claim that.
By the way, it was suggested on the Shute Shield forum that the points system should be applied to player registrations rather than the team on the field. I think this has legs.
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
So is the points system that is currently in place.
The AFL also has a draft that has not been contested.
It's only a problem if one of the participants makes it a problem.

I can't speak for the AFL but have you ever known the NSW Rugby Clubs to work together harmoniously. I don't think you would have to look too far to have one of the participants make it a problem.
 

Andrew B Cox

Sydney Middleton (9)
I tend to think that there is too much administration to move forward positively, each protecting its own forever-reducing-patch. We have NSWRU-SRU- SSRU- NSWCRU- NSWJRU-SJRU and NSW Schools RU (even within that GPS, CAS, CIS and CHS) all looking after some aspect of NSW rugby.

Premier rugby should be set up on geographical lines not historical. The district boundaries that worked on 1900 no longer apply. Sydney is a city of 4.5 million. When the Sydney comp started the town was no less than 500,000. When was the last time Norths AND Gordon enjoyed top 4 status together come finals time (1998 to my memory)? Or Wests AND Parra. Or Manly AND Warringah? Truth is, they tend not to because they compete for the same player pool that goes to one or the other. The only clubs that buck this trend is Easts and Randwick, but I see evidence that this is changing.

We talk a lot about the need for a third tier, but we can't even run a State-wide comp. The moment the Shute Shield was set to expand to Newcastle, the Illawarra and ACT, the threatened Sydney Clubs shrunk the comp back to its traditional boundaries.

Juniors and schools don't work together to bring the best players to State district championships by disallowing non club playing school players being selected to represent the district they live in.

Duplication of boards knows no bounds in this city.

My proposal would be to re-cast the districts. Place clubs in 8 -10 geographically separate areas. If existing clubs want to stand alone, they should tender. Or better still, merge to create a better bid. Uni should possibly remain as the only geographically situated club, but would need to tender for that right too. If Subbies clubs think they can do better, they could put in a tender. One board administering everything should award the teams.

These new clubs should take responsibility for their junior reps, permitting any player who plays for a village club, lives or attends a school in their area eligible. Only then will we see the best players playing at State Cup.
 

Done that

Ron Walden (29)
I tend to think that there is too much administration to move forward positively, each protecting its own forever-reducing-patch. We have NSWRU-SRU- SSRU- NSWCRU- NSWJRU-SJRU and NSW Schools RU (even within that GPS, CAS, CIS and CHS) all looking after some aspect of NSW rugby.

Premier rugby should be set up on geographical lines not historical. The district boundaries that worked on 1900 no longer apply. Sydney is a city of 4.5 million. When the Sydney comp started the town was no less than 500,000. When was the last time Norths AND Gordon enjoyed top 4 status together come finals time (1998 to my memory)? Or Wests AND Parra. Or Manly AND Warringah? Truth is, they tend not to because they compete for the same player pool that goes to one or the other. The only clubs that buck this trend is Easts and Randwick, but I see evidence that this is changing.

We talk a lot about the need for a third tier, but we can't even run a State-wide comp. The moment the Shute Shield was set to expand to Newcastle, the Illawarra and ACT, the threatened Sydney Clubs shrunk the comp back to its traditional boundaries.

Juniors and schools don't work together to bring the best players to State district championships by disallowing non club playing school players being selected to represent the district they live in.

Duplication of boards knows no bounds in this city.

My proposal would be to re-cast the districts. Place clubs in 8 -10 geographically separate areas. If existing clubs want to stand alone, they should tender. Or better still, merge to create a better bid. Uni should possibly remain as the only geographically situated club, but would need to tender for that right too. If Subbies clubs think they can do better, they could put in a tender. One board administering everything should award the teams.

These new clubs should take responsibility for their junior reps, permitting any player who plays for a village club, lives or attends a school in their area eligible. Only then will we see the best players playing at State Cup.
I see you're supporting Eastwood these days.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Andrew, the only club you say should definitely stay where it is, happens to be the club with the worst track record with juniors(if they have any).
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Andrew, the only club you say should definitely stay where it is, happens to be the club with the worst track record with juniors(if they have any).


If you talking about University, no, they don't have any juniors (except for a bit of window-dressing apparently, to fend off this obvious criticism). They do not care about developing the game, they only care about themselves. Maybe the Waratahs should stand up to them, insisting that any new recruits go to play for genuine district clubs, where the game needs to grow.
 
O

Ole Two Blue

Guest
this thread is called the Sydney Shake Up............you are all probably unaware of the SRU Constitution which was passed unanamously a couple of weeks back by all clubs in attendance. Note Manly did not attend.

Within the constitution is the provision that all 12 current clubs remain in the competition for the next 3 years. So despite what Growden wrote today (check the article under the title First Grade Concerns.... http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-on-kiwis-under-high-ball-20120816-24bg0.html) the 12 clubs are here til atleast the end of 2015.

We talk about shaking up the comp. We talk about Tahs standing up to the players and telling them which club they should align themselves with. We have even talked about the good old Labor Party argument of restraint of trade.

To shake up the comp, I personally would LOVE to see nothing more than a genuine attempt, and I mean genuine, from both NSWRU and ARU to promote the competition. We constantly hear how the Sydney Comp is the Premier Club Rugby Competition in Australia...yet it doesn't even have a major sponsor. Funding has been cut to it by ARU. The media promotion of the competition from NSWRU is minimal at best and only improves, albeit slightly, once the Super 15 has finished.

2 things need to change in my opinion to shake the comp up.

  1. they need to limit the amount of juniors and school players heading to the Varsity. In fact, they need to restrict the amount of players playing for clubs from without their home district.
Now before the Varsity apologists start throwing grenades at me, hear me out. What Uni have done to grow themselves in the last 20 years is simply nothing more than extraordinary. But I think it is akin to the growth rugby league had in the 50s and 60s and in particular the St George Dragons. We are all aware of their superb run of continued premierships, but at the time, NSWRL had the foresight to recognise that that dominance was killing the competition. They also had the balls to do something about it. Pity the same has not been recognised and acted upon by our code's administrators. But when you have old boys in the highest rugby position in the land, we all know nothing will ever change without their express approval. Shame.

The beauty of the NRL is that in any given year, 8 clubs are a chance of the making the grand final, with about 4 who would be considered as genuine contenders within that 8. So at the start of the year, everyone's side is capable of doing something special. The students have long expressed thir desire to play in a strong and viable competition. They have threatened many things over the years, but deep down, I believe they are happy in the Shute Shield. They have thrown down the challenge to all other clubs to catch them. Uni are clearly the benchmark. The problem is, the only way clubs can catch them is to throw money around to try to do achieve similar success. Every other club does have access to scholarships, or college fee grants without throwing a bit of money around themselves. So it is an uneven playing field. I can hear Bruce Ross already typing a show me and prove it response! So limit the transfers from outside the district. The points cap can be 'rorted' through applying discounts etc. And despite what others believe, I dont think it is having the desired effect. Unless Uni lose all 3 Colts grand finals, I dont think the PPS argument is a worthy one. So limit the player movement, pick a number, it might be 8 players across 3 grades of colts or whatever.

2. Rugby has NEVER taken the game to the people. Never has, never will.........unfortunately. The promotion of the competition is completely non existent save for the efforts of the clubs getting local paper coverage. Our local paper doesnt even have a rugby column! Shaking up the competition, by promoting the hell out of it, is something that has never been tried. Now is the time to do it
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Great post.
Any clues why manly didnt attend? Spit bridge under repair?
The uni old boys' power is difficult: in some ways it is only uni and the woodies who have kept Shute shield rugby from dintegrating into a complete rabble.
part of the problem is that there is,as John Ribot used to say, no vision for the game. To have that you either need people with no affiliations (hard to get in an essentially amateur game) or zealots (a fine line usually between using their zeal for good instead of evil). Or both.
PLUS MONEY.



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