Sydney Junior Rugby Union - 2013

[Inside Shoulder]

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Hopefully, most of the boys - from both teams - will turn out for their club teams next year.

It will be interesting to watch what transpires..

Wont quite a few of them be stopped from doing so by their schools?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Depends on the format of the National U16 championships, and which teams are selected to represent NSW.

If they are at certain schools or certain teams at certain schools, participation in club rugby will be frowned upon. A blind eye may be turned to participation in the State Champs, provided it doesn't "intefere" with school footy.

Some Coaches see it as being in their best interests to have a number of their 16A's or 1st XV selected to play for the state team, even if they are "only" in the State Club rep team.

 

[forwards4ever]

IS, No problem from my end..

A mates son was in the team, and he was happy to recount the battle over a quiet ale later in the day..and thankfully no complaints about anything !

Sounded like a pretty tight match, though, and to the victors go the plaudits..and quite rightly so.

Hopefully, most of the boys - from both teams - will turn out for their club teams next year.

It will be interesting to watch what transpires..

Don't think I've seen a Chatswood U16 team in the last 4 years. Often seem to win U15s and then disappear! Something to do with school pressure!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Depends on the format of the National U16 championships, and which teams are selected to represent NSW.

If they are at certain schools or certain teams at certain schools, participation in club rugby will be frowned upon. A blind eye may be turned to participation in the State Champs, provided it doesn't "intefere" with school footy.

Some Coaches see it as being in their best interests to have a number of their 16A's or 1st XV selected to play for the state team, even if they are "only" in the State Club rep team.

I was told recently that they have to play 4 club games to be eligible for reps in 2014 - is this new?

 

[Man on the hill]

I was told recently that they have to play 4 club games to be eligible for reps in 2014 - is this new?

Not at all - this is the fundamental requirement and has been for many years. The trick is that there are exceptions and ways around it if a player has previously played reps, they can rely on that previous experience for a "free ride" the next year.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Not at all - this is the fundamental requirement and has been for many years. The trick is that there are exceptions and ways around it if a player has previously played reps, they can rely on that previous experience for a "free ride" the next year.

That's how i understood it but the person who told me was in a position to know

 

[Hugh Jarse]

From this years NSW JRU State Champ Rules:

3. PLAYER QUALIFICATION
i A player is qualified to compete in the JSC if:
a. He/She has played in 2013 at least 4 club competition matches for a club or country town, within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for (U10s to U15s).
b. In U16 age group, he has played at least 4 club competition matches for a junior club or country town within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for, in 2012 or 2013.
c. In U17 age group, he has played at least 4 club competition matches for a junior club or country town within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for, in 2012 or 2013 .
ii Each participant in the JSC must be a registered club player and must have completed the requirements of ARU registration in 2013 with a club, country town, Sydney District or Country Zone association affiliated with NSWJRU. (Interstate competitiors must be registered under the ARU registration system.)

So the eligibility loophole that is exploited is that for Under 16's, provided the boy played at least 4 games in 2013 (U16) or 2012 (U15), and they are registered with a village club in the ARU system in 2013, then they qualify to participate in State Champs.

In 2012, if there is a bye, washout or forfeit (or combinations of the above) then the player is deemed to have "played" the game. In 2012 if you can manage 1 Bye, 2 washouts and a forfeit against your team, then all your Ghost player needs to do to play State Champs is to be registered on Buddha in 2013 and 2013 with Club X, and they are OK for State Champs without physically playing one game for Sydney Juniors in the 18 months prior to the U16 State Champs.

Fairly simple loophole to rort for the U16's.

For U17 State Champs, provided your "team" in U16's (2012) had a draw with a bye or a forfeit or two in it, and you are also home and hosed as a Ghost player for U17 State champs in 2013. Slightly more tricky to exploit the loophole for the U17's, but not impossible. This is why the number and quality of players at U17 JSC seems to drop off significantly from the U16's.

These rules have been in vogue for many years, and there is no reason to believe that they will change in the immediate future.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

These rules have been in vogue for many years, and there is no reason to believe that they will change in the immediate future.

Precisely the position I put to this person to be told they would have to "play or sign on for" 4 games next year.
We shall have to see.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I'd like to see that happen and it is not before time.

I can see that the consequence of this crackdown may be a drop off in the number of AAGPS and CAS boys playing in the U16's at Junior State Champs, on the back of their four qualifying U15 games the previous year.

Following that to its logical conclusion, the Sydney Juniors U16 team will no longer be "stacked" with "Schools" talent that did not make NSW Schools team, and the balance of power in the Sydney vs NSW Country U16 Game will be tipped significantly in NSW Country favour.

If Sydney Juniors allow this particular loophole to be closed, which will significantly de-power their U16 rep team, then this must be a sign that 2014 National U16's will be contested by NSW I (Blue), NSW II (White) and Possible NSW III or Combined States, as per the Under 18 Schools championships model.

 

[10to12]

Precisely the position I put to this person to be told they would have to "play or sign on for" 4 games next year.
We shall have to see.

IS Heard the same thing with a push coming from all districts except Norths and Gordon. Not that hard to get around. Just have to sign on your rep players (dont have to play). Maybe a reduced rego fee for all your non playing rep boys. Loophole opens up again

 

[Inside Shoulder]

IS Heard the same thing with a push coming from all districts except Norths and Gordon. Not that hard to get around. Just have to sign on your rep players (dont have to play). Maybe a reduced rego fee for all your non playing rep boys. Loophole opens up again

Aha - well this was a Norths person i was speaking to

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Bottom line is whatever qualification criteria is agreed to and written down, there will be someone who will devise a way to get around it.

A bit like what is going on in the AAGPS and inducements.

Norths and Gordon cop a fair bit of criticism for their State Champs rep team management, but most other districts would not turn down a chance of playing an AAGPS star recruit if they turned up and asked for a game. They are just not as good at it as some of the market leaders.

 

[10to12]

Don't think I've seen a Chatswood U16 team in the last 4 years. Often seem to win U15s and then disappear! Something to do with school pressure!

When were the Mosman v Chatswood U 16 battles .???? 2 years ago

 

[S'UP]

From this years NSW JRU State Champ Rules:




So the eligibility loophole that is exploited is that for Under 16's, provided the boy played at least 4 games in 2013 (U16) or 2012 (U15), and they are registered with a village club in the ARU system in 2013, then they qualify to participate in State Champs.

In 2012, if there is a bye, washout or forfeit (or combinations of the above) then the player is deemed to have "played" the game. In 2012 if you can manage 1 Bye, 2 washouts and a forfeit against your team, then all your Ghost player needs to do to play State Champs is to be registered on Buddha in 2013 and 2013 with Club X, and they are OK for State Champs without physically playing one game for Sydney Juniors in the 18 months prior to the U16 State Champs.

Fairly simple loophole to rort for the U16's.

For U17 State Champs, provided your "team" in U16's (2012) had a draw with a bye or a forfeit or two in it, and you are also home and hosed as a Ghost player for U17 State champs in 2013. Slightly more tricky to exploit the loophole for the U17's, but not impossible. This is why the number and quality of players at U17 JSC seems to drop off significantly from the U16's.

These rules have been in vogue for many years, and there is no reason to believe that they will change in the immediate future.

I think you will find next year it will be a little different no grandfather clause i.e. playing this year doesn't count, you need to be registered with a village club and play 4 games before the state champs and then play 4 games after the state champs to be able to represent SJRU. This will apply to 16's and 17's. It is very consistent with the new junior gold cup to be able to play you have to be a registered and active member of a village club. As someone else said only time will tell.

 

[Rugby Addict]

It would appear the rules are changing and players will need to play 4 games prior to the State Champs.

This will put undue stress on players from GPS, CAS and ISA who will be required to play a school game on Sat (1sts, 2nds or 16A), a club game on Sunday morning (16A) and a rep trial in the afternoon. The reason for the grandfathering in the first place was because this amount of rugby at A grade level is way too much. If you don't think it is too much try doing it yourself.

The effect will be either that the players will play way too much football or the U16 State Championship and U16 SJRU team will become sub standard like the U17 State Championship and the U17 SJRU team.

10 to 12 - the Mosman v Chatswood games 2 years ago were U15's - none of those players played club in U16's in 2012 or rep in U17's this year.

Having said that it is pretty easy to get around these new rules or do what Newport did in the U16's this year and forfeit your games after the State Champs which further stuffs up the SJRU comp.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It would appear the rules are changing and players will need to play 4 games prior to the State Champs.

This will put undue stress on players from GPS, CAS and ISA who will be required to play a school game on Sat (1sts, 2nds or 16A), a club game on Sunday morning (16A) and a rep trial in the afternoon. The reason for the grandfathering in the first place was because this amount of rugby at A grade level is way too much. If you don't think it is too much try doing it yourself.

The effect will be either that the players will play way too much football or the U16 State Championship and U16 SJRU team will become sub standard like the U17 State Championship and the U17 SJRU team.

10 to 12 - the Mosman v Chatswood games 2 years ago were U15's - none of those players played club in U16's in 2012 or rep in U17's this year.

Having said that it is pretty easy to get around these new rules or do what Newport did in the U16's this year and forfeit your games after the State Champs which further stuffs up the SJRU comp.

In fact the Sunday demand would exceed the ARU's "guidelines" (I thought they were rules) for the number of minutes in a day

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Unless someone has better inside mail on the U16 national champs next year, a "sub-standard" SJRU rep team may not count in terms of the U16 National Championships.

My snout is suggesting that there will be a replica of the opens with a NSW I, NSW II and Combined states team, which will be selected by independent selection panel, with School Association performance and Junior Gold Cup performances ( from the summer U15/U16 transition) guiding the selectors.

We live in interesting times.

SJRU, NSW Cnty JRU and NSW JRU still apparently keen to have a U14-U17 Sydney vs Country carnival day, but with the still rortable revised eligibility criteria in place, the standard of these games will be lower than previously but should be more representational of the best Village club footy players around.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My snout is suggesting that there will be a replica of the opens with a NSW I, NSW II and Combined states team, which will be selected by independent selection panel, with School Association performance and Junior Gold Cup performances ( from the summer U15/U16 transition) guiding the selectors.

But, logically, there will be a very limited number of u16s who get into the JGC u17s - so that doesn't seem like a reliable pathway

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There is a lot of detail that I think needs to be fleshed out, particularly how this integrates the School Association pathways which seem to be rusted on to U16 and U16 age grades, with the Junior club (U15 and U17 village club pathways).

I can see it working reasonably well for the U15's, and being a bit of a flop with the U17's, however SOMETHING needs to be done to deal with those talented athletes who are in the CCC, CHS and AICES associations (or ISA/AAGPS/CAS 3rd XV or lower [grammar/SBHS 1sts] level.

A few seem to gravitate to early colts, some stay in Juniors, some probably lose interest.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There is a lot of detail that I think needs to be fleshed out, particularly how this integrates the School Association pathways which seem to be rusted on to U16 and U16 age grades, with the Junior club (U15 and U17 village club pathways).

I can see it working reasonably well for the U15's, and being a bit of a flop with the U17's, however SOMETHING needs to be done to deal with those talented athletes who are in the CCC, CHS and AICES associations (or ISA/AAGPS/CAS 3rd XV or lower [grammar/SBHS 1sts] level.

A few seem to gravitate to early colts, some stay in Juniors, some probably lose interest.

What you say is right but why do I get the feeling that this solution was driven by the bottom line - isnt it really JGP Lite?