Sydney Colts - 2017

[Hugh Jarse]

Sydney Colts Season 2016 is all done and dusted, as are the 3 main Schoolboy competitions.

Time to start the Season 2017 wang.

Any movements in the Coaching ranks?

What Clubs are the 2016 Year 12 graduates going to?
While not as many as previous seasons, a few Private School players have already signalled their intent for next season by moonlighting with Colts during School Holidays. Many CCC, CHS and AICES players in Year 12 have done a full year of Colts in 2016.

Who is going to do a Harrison Goddard and bypass Colts straight for Grade Rugby in their first year out of School? A few from the Class of 2015 made their First Grade debut in 2016, many in the Engine Room such as Lachlan Swinton, Cody Walker, Harry Johnson-Holmes, and Ryan McAuley who landed a Waratahs Supplementary Squad contract.

2017 will see us farewell most of the Class of 2014 to Grade footy, and a chunk of the Class of 2015 will not see much Colts action either due to early promotion to Grade, or being absent on State and National Under 20 Representative duties.

Will the Northern Suburbs and Eastern Suburbs resurgence maintain momentum into 2017? Eastern Suburbs have a good contingent of talented young men with another year of Colts eligibility to take forward into 2017, and Northern Suburbs have consistently punched above their weight, with significantly less numbers in their program than the other clubs.

The battle of the beaches was a bit of a fizzer this year, but if they can retain their juniors, Manly and Warringah could once again threaten the Usual Suspects in a year or two.

Out west, there were some good results in the lower grades for Penrith and Parramatta and some magic could happen leveraging off the back of recent Junior State Champs successes. Strength and conditioning should be a focus for them.

Once again Randwick recruited rather well but ultimately failed on to produce the desired results. With a single Colts 2 Premiership and two semi final exits to show for their efforts they won't be happy in Coogee, and it will be interesting to see what their strategy will be for 2017.

Plans for season 2017 are in motion at most clubs and Pre-Season training will start in mid to late October in many clubs after a short break.

Recruiting of this years crop of Schoolboy Rockstars is well under way and if the snouts are to be believed, most have already committed. After all the Rockstars are looked after, there are still a swag of positions in Colts 2's and 3's that need to be filled by young men who just want to run around a park with their mates.

Will the Powers That Be attempt to resurrect the experiment that was the 2015 Under 18 (Colts 4ths)? There seemed to be a lack of interest in 2016 but with the ARU strategy to grow the game, It seems that the better junior players outside the CAS, ISA and AAGPS system are looking towards District Colts rather than Sydney Juniors for their rugby.

Any changes coming to the Player Points System? Should be. It seems to have been an absolute failure in nearly all respects.
If they intend to retain it, will there be some recognition, or points loading, for selection in State, National or other Union National Under 20 Teams, or NRC Team Selection?
How about an embargo on State, or National (incl other nations) Under 20's players playing Colts 2's or Colts 3's, regardless of the date that they were selected for that team?

Is it time to play Colts 3's under Senior Rugby laws, not the Australian Under 19 Laws variation?
There didn't seem to be any dramas with uncontested scrums this year in Colts 3's. The only drama seemed to be related to Higher grades going un contested because there was insufficient Player Points Cap left to bring on a trained and competent Front Row replacement.

Wang on folks.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Past Colts Winners (last 10 or so years only). Click on the messages below for the full history for each grade.

DISTRICT FIRST DIVISION
FIRST GRADE COLTS ("Colts I")("Heffernan Shield")
Year, Premier, Runner Up, Score, Venue
<snip>
2006 - Eastwood, Sydney University, 29-25, Concord Oval
2007 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 41-13, Concord Oval
2008 - Sydney University, Eastern Suburbs, 39-5, Concord Oval
2009 - Sydney University, Southern Districts, 32-18, Concord Oval
2010 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 32-17, Concord Oval
2011 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 35-12, Forshaw Rugby Park
2012 - Sydney University, Northern Suburbs, 27-15, Forshaw Rugby Park
2013 - Sydney University, Manly, 36-35, Forshaw Rugby Park
2014 - Randwick, Sydney, University, 23-17, Forshaw Rugby Park
2015 - Sydney University, Randwick, 29-26, Forshaw Rugby Park
2016 - Sydney University, Northern Suburbs, 26-21, Forshaw Rugby Park

DISTRICT FIRST DIVISION
SECOND GRADE COLTS("COLTS II")("Shell Cup")
<snip>
2005 - Eastwood, Sydney University, 28-5
2006 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 28-8, Concord Oval
2007 - Sydney University, West Harbour, 13-10, Concord Oval
2008 - Sydney University, Eastern Suburbs, 16-9, Concord Oval
2009 - Sydney University, Eastern Suburbs, 17-16, Concord Oval
2010 - Sydney University, Gordon, 31-3, Concord Oval
2011 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 22-7, Forshaw Rugby Park
2012 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 41-7, Forshaw Rugby Park
2013 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 25-12, Forshaw Rugby Park
2014 - Sydney University, Manly, 13-12, Forshaw Rugby Park
2015 - Sydney University, Randwick, 30-24, Forshaw Rugby Park
2016 - Randwick, Sydney University, 34-27, Forshaw Rugby Park

DISTRICT FIRST DIVISION
COLTS THIRD GRADE ("COLTS III")(“Bill Simpson Shield”)
<snip>
2006 - THIRD GRADE COLTS NOT HELD. REPLACED BY U19 COLTS
2007 - THIRD GRADE COLTS NOT HELD. REPLACED BY U19 COLTS
2008 - Sydney University, Manly, 17-12, Concord Oval
2009 - Gordon, Sydney University, 19-17, Concord Oval
2010 - West Harbour, Sydney University, 35-12, Concord Oval
2011 - Sydney University, Manly, 24-12, Forshaw Rugby Park
2012 - Randwick, Sydney University, 17-5, Forshaw Rugby Park
2013 - Eastern Suburbs, Sydney University, 21-15, Forshaw Rugby Park
2014 - Sydney University, Manly, 3-0, Forshaw Rugby Park
2015 - Sydney University, Randwick, 10-0, Forshaw Rugby Park
2016 - Sydney University, Eastern Suburbs, 23-5, Forshaw Rugby Park

FIRST DIVISION - UNDER 19 COLTS (1994-1999; 2006-2007)
<snip>
UNDER 19 COLTS - (re-introduced - replacing Third Grade Colts)
2006 - Randwick, Eastwood, 14-10, Concord Oval
2007 - Sydney University, Eastwood, 25-18, Concord Oval
<snip>

 

[the baz]

Sydney Colts Season 2016 is all done and dusted, as are the 3 main Schoolboy competitions.



Time to start the Season 2017 wang.



Any movements in the Coaching ranks?



What Clubs are the 2016 Year 12 graduates going to?

While not as many as previous seasons, a few Private School players have already signalled their intent for next season by moonlighting with Colts during School Holidays. Many CCC, CHS and AICES players in Year 12 have done a full year of Colts in 2016.



Who is going to do a Harrison Goddard and bypass Colts straight for Grade Rugby in their first year out of School? A few from the Class of 2015 made their First Grade debut in 2016, many in the Engine Room such as Lachlan Swinton, Cody Walker, Harry Johnson-Holmes, and Ryan McAuley who landed a Waratahs Supplementary Squad contract.



2017 will see us farewell most of the Class of 2014 to Grade footy, and a chunk of the Class of 2015 will not see much Colts action either due to early promotion to Grade, or being absent on State and National Under 20 Representative duties.



Will the Northern Suburbs and Eastern Suburbs resurgence maintain momentum into 2017? Eastern Suburbs have a good contingent of talented young men with another year of Colts eligibility to take forward into 2017, and Northern Suburbs have consistently punched above their weight, with significantly less numbers in their program than the other clubs.



The battle of the beaches was a bit of a fizzer this year, but if they can retain their juniors, Manly and Warringah could once again threaten the Usual Suspects in a year or two.



Out west, there were some good results in the lower grades for Penrith and Parramatta and some magic could happen leveraging off the back of recent Junior State Champs successes. Strength and conditioning should be a focus for them.



Once again Randwick recruited rather well but ultimately failed on to produce the desired results. With a single Colts 2 Premiership and two semi final exits to show for their efforts they won't be happy in Coogee, and it will be interesting to see what their strategy will be for 2017.



Plans for season 2017 are in motion at most clubs and Pre-Season training will start in mid to late October in many clubs after a short break.



Recruiting of this years crop of Schoolboy Rockstars is well under way and if the snouts are to be believed, most have already committed. After all the Rockstars are looked after, there are still a swag of positions in Colts 2's and 3's that need to be filled by young men who just want to run around a park with their mates.



Will the Powers That Be attempt to resurrect the experiment that was the 2015 Under 18 (Colts 4ths)? There seemed to be a lack of interest in 2016 but with the ARU strategy to grow the game, It seems that the better junior players outside the CAS, ISA and AAGPS system are looking towards District Colts rather than Sydney Juniors for their rugby.



Any changes coming to the Player Points System? Should be. It seems to have been an absolute failure in nearly all respects.

If they intend to retain it, will there be some recognition, or points loading, for selection in State, National or other Union National Under 20 Teams, or NRC Team Selection?

How about an embargo on State, or National (incl other nations) Under 20's players playing Colts 2's or Colts 3's, regardless of the date that they were selected for that team?



Is it time to play Colts 3's under Senior Rugby laws, not the Australian Under 19 Laws variation?

There didn't seem to be any dramas with uncontested scrums this year in Colts 3's. The only drama seemed to be related to Higher grades going un contested because there was insufficient Player Points Cap left to bring on a trained and competent Front Row replacement.



Wang on folks.

I believe uni,wix,norths have a lot of their current ones age out, so it will be interesting to see who they recruit and how their current 2s progress.
I agree that there needs to be additional points to players who make representative programs.
Absolutely 3s need to move away from under 19 laws and play senior laws.
I know many of the easts boys were frustrated at a lack of opportunity to play in higher grades due to the recruitment of a number of nsw 1s and aus school boys players, hurting them from a pp perspective, so it will be interesting to see how many stay.
Its funny that we have only just finished the season really and we constantly here clubs offering crazy incentives to play. Its at the point that, with players now, their first question is "what are u offering me?". Many clubs offer, but do they come through? mostly no...

 

[Bismarck]

Uni have 10 returning who will turn 19/20 in 2017. That includes Swinton who may stay in grade.

Player points in my view should be scrapped. You want the best boys playing against one another every week in Under 20s . Now that there is a pseudo Under 20s comp, they need to be battle ready with great combinations.

Any club offering free medical would be my preferred option.

 

[the baz]

Uni have 10 returning who will turn 19/20 in 2017. That includes Swinton who may stay in grade.



Player points in my view should be scrapped. You want the best boys playing against one another every week in Under 20s . Now that there is a pseudo Under 20s comp, they need to be battle ready with great combinations.



Any club offering free medical would be my preferred option.

couldn't disagree more Bis. Scrapping the PP will only create the have's and have not's. Easts were the prime example where they recruited a good number of Aus schoolboys but due to the points, could not play them all. They wanted exisiting talent rather than creating better players. No PP will just create a scenario where 2-3 teams are smashing everyone as they have the wealth of talent. No PP will just open the game up to offering silly incentives that only 2-3 clubs can supply. I believe the PP should be reviewed, where players making gen blue\other state development teams, need to incur more points. This season showed that the PP had created a closer competition.

 

[Norfolk & Chance]

I hear there will be wholesale changes in the coaching ranks at Eastwood Colts. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[the baz]

I hear there will be wholesale changes in the coaching ranks at Eastwood Colts. Can anyone confirm this?

with the mass exodus of players from the start of 2016 season to the end, as you previously mentioned, surely there would be coaching changes necessary.

 

[Norfolk & Chance]

with the mass exodus of players from the start of 2016 season to the end, as you previously mentioned, surely there would be coaching changes necessary.

That is certainly what you would expect, but the players were told things would change during the year and nothing did from what I'm told. So it would be nice to hear if someone else had been told or heard the same thing as me regarding the coaches. I guess for there to be change there needs to be another group of coaches will/able to take over.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What was the actual objective of the Player Points Cap?

Has any player ever rethought the club they would play for based on Player Points issues?

There is only certain numbers of top notch players out there in clubland, and many of them were not Aust Schoolboys at max PP for Colts.

The clubs who recruit the most effectively supplemented with a solid S&C and coaching program tend to get better results than those that just recruit the rock stars in large numbers.

I am yet to be convinced that the PP system is still relevant or if it even works as intended.

We have a thread to discuss the Player Points System. Perhaps the discussion could go there.

 

[AussieDominance]

Not sure of the point of applying player points to players joining from outside the Sydney/NSW rugby scene. I thought the idea was to create a pathway to Super Rugby and having the best players playing the comp should be encouraged.

 

[I like to watch]

Points system won't stop outside players joining the comp.
The idea is that they all don't play at the same club.
It's a better pathway if they are involved in contests each week,as opposed to flogging inferior teams most weeks.

 

[Bismarck]

couldn't disagree more Bis. Scrapping the PP will only create the have's and have not's. Easts were the prime example where they recruited a good number of Aus schoolboys but due to the points, could not play them all. They wanted exisiting talent rather than creating better players. No PP will just create a scenario where 2-3 teams are smashing everyone as they have the wealth of talent. No PP will just open the game up to offering silly incentives that only 2-3 clubs can supply. I believe the PP should be reviewed, where players making gen blue\other state development teams, need to incur more points. This season showed that the PP had created a closer competition.

With the PP system in place, it has already created the have's and have nots so it is effectively a two tiered comp in Colts. Uni, Norths, Randwick, Gordon, Easts, Eastwood are the top 6 and the balance are the bottom 6. I will have to do my research for before and after PP system was introduced but I bet these 6 clubs were the amongst the strongest before and after just because of the Clubs themselves (including strong management and culture). I am sure this is part of reason why Norths have had a resurgence this year.

If you have players in the Under 20s, you are actually disadvantaged as they miss up to 5 competition games at the start of the season and then, if they are selected in Aus Under 20s, they are wrapped in cotton wool and miss more games. Then, if they are good enough for Aus Under 20s, they generally skip Colts and play Grade (or 2nd Grade).

PP system is just another form of regulation that stifles competition. Anyone who is a talented player (and maintains that talent for 2 years) will be pushed through the system post Colts whereas those boys making up numbers to get to 40 points might be lucky to play 3rd or 4th grade, because they are good but not good enough.

Always comes back to the same question, what is Colts/Club Rugby for? To promote players to play 1st Grade, to play Super Rugby and then Wallabies or is it to run around the paddock and play the game they love?

In my view it is both so both sides should be accommodated.

As for incentives, they are nominal at best. An EAP at Syd Uni is stuff all - it is more about getting into Uni. Same goes for Randwick and now Gordon with their ties to UNSW and UTS. My boy would play anyway!

 

[Bismarck]

Agree re incentives - not to be sniffed at but if Penrith had an ATAR deal with UWS (in fact that is a great idea for them!) or offered trade scholarships (lie Randwick), would that change a player's mind on where they played? I would say probably not as most boys will play with the club they think will advance their footy career (if that is what they want).

Colts start pre season fitness in December and train/play through to two weeks ago - some, not many might play in NRC. Then, if some are in Gen Blue they need to keep up their fitness/strength and then start training in earnest in early November. And the biggest sacrifice for the Gen Blue boys is staying off the razzle (and for some the dazzle) and studying and for some, working.

I think the Colts environment is just a bit tougher than school purely on endurance and length of the season.

 

[Done that]

(Bismark #12) ,I find much of your post illogical & misinformed. In what sense has the PP system created a 2 tier competition? One of the reasons the PP concept was instigated , was to reduce the development of a 2 tier competition , which had already begun to evolve. i.e. to reduce the likelihood of most of the "best" players going to a small number of clubs , Sydney Uni being a prime example , & more recently Randwick. The have's & the have not's already existed prior to the PP idea. Ultimately the goal ,ideally , is to spread the talent pool over all clubs . How effective this has been thus far is another matter , but it is important to achieve this goal for a meaningful competition to occur. And it should not be assumed that a PP system is the only way that this will be achieved. Also , how is having players in the under 20 team a disadvantage ? Most clubs would love to be so "disadvantaged" , because whilst these players may not be available for all of the games in the Colts competition , they will ultimately go on ,in all likelihood , to strengthen their club in the senior grades in later years. And this has a cumulative effect. The PP system is applied to each club at both a senior & colts level , with the same objectives , & is not directed only at colts players. You clearly think that the competition is principally for the benefit of some of the more successful clubs , which , by the way may not be the most successful next year etc. while the others can "run around the paddock & play the game they love " & presumably be happy to have no chance of winning their competition , & , predictably , be belted by more advantaged clubs each year for the privilege. Finally your belief that incentives offered to potential colts players is " nominal at best " is simply not true. Most boys have no incentive to join a club other than to play the game they love , to play with their mates , to make new friends ,& to develop their Rugby skills , etc. Some boys are offered " moderate " incentives , but there are a number of boys who in fact receive quite significant inducements to play with a club .And I know this from personal experience.

 

[Bismarck]

Thanks for the summation. It is my opinion and nothing you have said changes that. If the objective was to remove a two tiered comp by its introduction, in my view it has had the opposite effect because it is not necessarily only talent that wins competitions but a combination of talent plus Club training programs.

Spreading talent sounds like a socialist utopia that does't seem to have worked if the team lists are anything to go by. Surprisingly there is a heavy concentration in the top 6 clubs!

And incentives can only be considered nominal in the context of other sports. Most boys don't have incentives offered to them because they have limited talent. I also speak from personal experience. My son would have played irrespective of the paltry incentives thrown his way.

 

[Ruapehu]

The PP system (intro 2009 season) was an attempt to lvl the playing field and spread talent. Since 2009 Syd Uni has lost only 1 Colts 1 and 1 Colts 2 title. Wests, Penrith, Parra, Rats have never played in a GF. Gordon, Easts, Southern 1 appearance, Manly & Norths 2 appearances. 3 clubs, Uni Wicks, Woodies, have filled 25 of the 32 Colts 1 & 2 GF positions. This is hardly the spreading of talent through the Colts comp.
The points system has had no effect on the success of clubs in the colts comp. The talent is attracted to the better managed clubs with stronger chances of success. Poorly run clubs just make up the numbers.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The much quoted statement that Uni recruit all the rock stars has not been borne out by the facts. Study where the Aust Schoolboys, and NSW Schools/Combined states players from recent years have been going to, and Uni seem to acquire/recruit/buy in/poach about 2 or 3 Aust Schoolboys (out of a typical group of 20 from NSW who end up in Aust Schools/Aust A/Aust Barbarians). They do this consistently. Each year other clubs, do equivalent or much better. In some recent years Randwick have had up to 6 ASRU players join them, and Easts did rather well from the Class of 2015.

Manly and Eastwood have shown that they can produce a competitive Colts 1 team without a lot of ASRU players.

Poor coaching, mentoring, culture and leadership at a club will produce average results despite the number of elite rock star players the club manage to recruit from the NSW Schools, and Aust Schools teams.

Incentives: - Yes there are some players who get their education more or less paid for. There are very very few of these. I'd be surprised if there were more than one or two per club. From what my young'uns tell me, and what I have gleaned from those I trust not to tell porkies, the usual suspects only have one or two players across Colts and Grade on this "education paid for with no HECS debt" number. Sydney Uni is not the only club with players studying at Sydney University, in colleges, or private accommodation, who are paying less than full freight for their education, and/or room and board.

Scratch below the surface and all sorts of inconvenient facts are exposed that unfortunately dispel many sideline "old wives tales".

With about 80 players in your typical club's colts program, these two or three "rock stars" represent less than 5% of the Colts playing group.

The rest of the "scholarships" are worth very little monetarily and are usually couched in contra terms.

Players (and Parents) will boast about being on a "scholarship" at club X, when in all reality they probably have had some $ knocked off their registration fee, a reduced gym membership fee, "free" strapping for training and match day, and some possible assistance finding (usually lowly paid and menial) employment.

Do the maths on it. A year or two back, the Wicks promoted their Scholarship fund. I think their target was for "36 players this year and up to 50 players next year", with a fundraising target of $50k to support that.

They can't all be getting a $40000 degree and 3+ years food and accommodation for free.

 

[Done that]

The much quoted statement that Uni recruit all the rock stars has not been borne out by the facts. Study where the Aust Schoolboys, and NSW Schools/Combined states players from recent years have been going to, and Uni seem to acquire/recruit/buy in/poach about 2 or 3 Aust Schoolboys (out of a typical group of 20 from NSW who end up in Aust Schools/Aust A/Aust Barbarians). They do this consistently. Each year other clubs, do equivalent or much better. In some recent years Randwick have had up to 6 ASRU players join them, and Easts did rather well from the Class of 2015.

Manly and Eastwood have shown that they can produce a competitive Colts 1 team without a lot of ASRU players.

Poor coaching, mentoring, culture and leadership at a club will produce average results despite the number of elite rock star players the club manage to recruit from the NSW Schools, and Aust Schools teams.

Incentives: - Yes there are some players who get their education more or less paid for. There are very very few of these. I'd be surprised if there were more than one or two per club. From what my young'uns tell me, and what I have gleaned from those I trust not to tell porkies, the usual suspects only have one or two players across Colts and Grade on this "education paid for with no HECS debt" number. Sydney Uni is not the only club with players studying at Sydney University, in colleges, or private accommodation, who are paying less than full freight for their education, and/or room and board.

Scratch below the surface and all sorts of inconvenient facts are exposed that unfortunately dispel many sideline "old wives tales".

With about 80 players in your typical club's colts program, these two or three "rock stars" represent less than 5% of the Colts playing group.

The rest of the "scholarships" are worth very little monetarily and are usually couched in contra terms.

Players (and Parents) will boast about being on a "scholarship" at club X, when in all reality they probably have had some $ knocked off their registration fee, a reduced gym membership fee, "free" strapping for training and match day, and some possible assistance finding (usually lowly paid and menial) employment.

Do the maths on it. A year or two back, the Wicks promoted their Scholarship fund. I think their target was for "36 players this year and up to 50 players next year", with a fundraising target of $50k to support that.

They can't all be getting a $40000 degree and 3+ years food and accommodation for free.

Exceptio probat regulam.

 

[forwards4ever]

Exceptio probat regulam.

English please!

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Exception proves the rule!