Rugby Mum
Watty Friend (18)
Look at competition Rules under Sanctions. Good luck getting assistance. Seems too hard to police and follow up
Sydney Colts - 2016
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Look at competition Rules under Sanctions. Good luck getting assistance. Seems too hard to police and follow up
Rugby Mum
Watty Friend (18)
Norths Colts made finals last year and went down to Uni. They don't have the numbers like the corp, although they do have some very skilled and solid players looking to improve their game. Again this year none have been looked at for Rep Duties, as they are not considered big enough. Size seems to have taken over skill and fitness in selections for Representative Rugby, which is a pity. Maybe a combination of both skill and size would improve the competitiveness of Rep Rugby in the future.
Only a Mums Opinion.
Nick Duffy and Evan Pritchard played Aussie Schoolboys in 2014 and most boys in that team played 1st XV for schools so they are not slouches. Most will be overlooked this year as they are >20 yrs with the focus on the class of 97 and 98 that are eligible for Under 20s.
You don't need size as a 9, 10, 11 0r 14 - just skill and speed usually. You do need size (with skill) up front as it is very hard to give away 20+kgs per player in the front row at Rep level.
You don't need size as a 9, 10, 11 0r 14 - just skill and speed usually. You do need size (with skill) up front as it is very hard to give away 20+kgs per player in the front row at Rep level.
the baz
Alfred Walker (16)
I understand your point Bis but in part cannot agree. How can a smaller front row, such as norths, be successfully competing with the much bigger packs of wests, parra, uni, wix, much bigger packs? technique over size for me. Many will age out, but how can a club, who, lets face it, have been competitive (top 4) over the past 3 years, have 1 player only, to progress to a representative team, in jack Clancy? And the gen blu weren't great.
Agree at Club level but not at Rep level as I said. Even Uni vs Randwick where Randwick has two Aus Under 20s, Uni won 2 tightheads, crumbled on two and were competitive on the rest. The selectors do favour size plus mobility.
Of the Norths playing roster, just wondering who would have been put forward over others selected? And agree that Gen Blue didn't gel as a team and were outplayed by the Qlders, I expect 2017 will be a stronger group.
Of the Norths playing roster, just wondering who would have been put forward over others selected? And agree that Gen Blue didn't gel as a team and were outplayed by the Qlders, I expect 2017 will be a stronger group.
the baz
Alfred Walker (16)
yes the selectors do prefer size.. maybe we need a change of selectors. there is a great article in rugby news on will miller, told he was too small to be in the forwards, and, in mine and others opinions, one of the best flankers in the game. Size is not the issue, but heart and skill base is key. I personally don't think 2017 will show much improvement.
he is listed at 94kg which makes him 7kgs off Hooper but a quite a way off the All Blacks loose forwards. Even Pocock is 115kg (when at 7).
Agree re ticker - bit like Charlie Smith (Scots, Easts) who is probably 75kg dripping wet (not sure really how heavy he is) but when he comes on, he makes a difference and he was selected in Gen Blue so sometimes the selectors do value smaller forwards.
Hold the faith re Gen Blue - it will be a cracking year for the boys in blue!
Agree re ticker - bit like Charlie Smith (Scots, Easts) who is probably 75kg dripping wet (not sure really how heavy he is) but when he comes on, he makes a difference and he was selected in Gen Blue so sometimes the selectors do value smaller forwards.
Hold the faith re Gen Blue - it will be a cracking year for the boys in blue!
Norfolk & Chance
Peter Burge (5)
I've heard of a number of young men who are very skillful players actually being told they won't be selected because they are too small, size is everything unfortunately. I guess now the ARU has employed a national skills coach, skill might come back into it, instead of this bash them up approach coaches appear to be taking.
Norfolk & Chance
Peter Burge (5)
I think the big disappointment this year was Eastwood Colts, while they improved on last year, they had more talent turn up to their pre-season than you could poke a stick at. I think they had c.120. The boys coming from schools/club rugby had been very strong in that age group, so i think they would have expected better things.
They struggled to get enough players on the field in the last couple of rounds, it looked like a player revolt to me.
They struggled to get enough players on the field in the last couple of rounds, it looked like a player revolt to me.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
^^^Norths would dream of 120 players rocking up to pre-season/ opening rounds.
For the last couple of years they have run 3 competitive teams week in week out using around 60 players with no games defaulted. Most clubs use approx 80-90 players throughout the season in their Colts program.
For the last couple of years they have run 3 competitive teams week in week out using around 60 players with no games defaulted. Most clubs use approx 80-90 players throughout the season in their Colts program.
forwards4ever
Jimmy Flynn (14)
Probably somewhere in between would be perfect! You look at the clubs like Uni, Wicks and even Easts this year with their 10 on the bench for 3rds almost every week. Hard for the 3rds coaches to manage, but good for when injuries occur.
On that maybe the way Wicks approached their bench had something to do with their fade out at seasons end. Have seen Uni & Easts use all their reserves through the rounds - not Wicks!!
JimmyLan
Allen Oxlade (6)
According to the team sheets He started for first grade in rounds 3, 4, 5, 12, 13 and 15. Rounds 10, 11, 14 he was in 1st Grade Colts. Yesterday he won a game for 3rd grade colts.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
@JimmyLan, "Without being bitter (Ok just a little) "
Sounds like you are a bit more than "just a little bitter"
Have you read Competition Rule 33.7?
The "Filthy Tactics" of The Corporation are completely within the Competion rules.
"We were the better side and when we took the lead in the second half..."
Interesting statement worth examining a little further.
The Web site records Randwick Colts 3rd grade team as losing both previous fixtures against The Corporation (Round 3 and Round 14).
Were The Gallopers also the "Better Side" on those occasions as well and they only won because they parachuted a First Grade (or any other sort of elite level colts or otherwise) player?
The team sheets from those games don't support such a hypothesis.
What magically happened between Round 14 and the Semi Final 5 weeks later to make Randwick the "Better Side"?
The Round 14 Team Sheets reveal that Randwick played Tonga Tangitau and Patrick Pelligrini off the bench. Patrick Pelligrini has played at the National Schoolboys Championships in 2015 and 2016. Tangitau carries a 6 Player Point loading and has played most of the year as the starting Hooker for The Wix Colts 1 team. Even with these accomplished players (some would even refer to them as parachutists) playing off the bench, The Gallopers still managed to end up on the wrong side of the score sheet.
The Round 14 and Semi Final Team Sheets on the Web site appear to have only minor differences in their roster, and there was no Parachutists used in round 14 to secure their victory. On the other hand, there appear to be rather substantial changes to the roster used by the Gallopers.
From the Gallopers Semi Final Team Sheet, how many Colts 1 games have Matthew Serhon (2014 National Schoolboys Championship player), Josh Noonan, Rory Williams, Sam Musgrove (2015 National Schoolboys Championships player) and Jordan Iremia (2015 National Schoolboys Championships Player) played this season, compared to Colts 3 games?
One could even surmise after looking at the 2016 Randwick Team sheets on the web site, on top of their Schoolboy Rugby CV's, that these players are not Colts 3 standard players. Regardless, Open Selection allows the Wix to legitimately nominate these players and others in Colts 3.
Was it the presence of the extra Colts 1 level players in the Colts 3 Semi Final team that helped you to form the opinion that your team was the "Better Side", despite not being able to beat them on two previous occasions, and not taking the lead until the second half, at which point The Corporations Rock Star single handedly managed to play a game changing 6 minutes.
I also note that The Corporation had one player in the sin bin for 10 minutes. The bloke carded was a player off the bench. Typically these come on in the second half.
How is it possible that the "Better Team" was only able to take the lead in the second half? Did this change of lead, which you say happened in the second half, occur when the 15 "Better Team" players were playing against only 14 players? If so, this is a rather unusual method to determine the "Better Team".
How much time was left on the clock when "Siosi" Rock Star's game changing cameo was over? If it was a filthy match fixing rort, why did The Corporation replace him after only 6 minutes. In a game that was only won by 4 points, if the intent was to guarantee a victory using "filth tactics", why would they take him off with 4 minutes to go, and the match still in the balance?
A "Better Team" with plenty of former elite level Schoolboy players, loaded with lots of Colts 1 and Colts 2 experience to fall back on, should be able to secure a match winning meat pie in the final 4 minutes of game time
It seems that Randwick have taken full advantage of the provisions of Open Selection as the Competition Rules allow. The Corporation also seem to have done similar.
Perhaps Randwick* should champion a case to change the Competition Rules to remove the Open Selection provisions from finals eligibility when they are next reviewed by SRU.
As someone has posted on another thread, there are several certainties that arise from every attempt to level the playing field:
1. There will be loopholes that will be exploited.
2. There will be unintended consequences
3. It will always be the "other" club that is rorting the system
In relation to a claim in post #436 that the Gallopers C3 played a NSW U20 player in the centers earlier in the season, I can find no evidence of this in the team sheets. The closest I can see to that is Jum Woodhill coming off the bench in round 8 and I suspect this was part of a standard graduated return to play protocol after his broken arm (IIRC) mended. Pretty sure that Woodhill was in the initial 60 man Gen Blue U20 extended training squad.
* Good luck with that. AFAIK Randwick is one of a cabal of clubs that are staunch supporters of the Open Selection provisions. Cue Paul Keating "In any horse race, always put your money on Self Interest. At least you know it will be trying".
Sounds like you are a bit more than "just a little bitter"
Have you read Competition Rule 33.7?
The "Filthy Tactics" of The Corporation are completely within the Competion rules.
"We were the better side and when we took the lead in the second half..."
Interesting statement worth examining a little further.
The Web site records Randwick Colts 3rd grade team as losing both previous fixtures against The Corporation (Round 3 and Round 14).
Were The Gallopers also the "Better Side" on those occasions as well and they only won because they parachuted a First Grade (or any other sort of elite level colts or otherwise) player?
The team sheets from those games don't support such a hypothesis.
What magically happened between Round 14 and the Semi Final 5 weeks later to make Randwick the "Better Side"?
The Round 14 Team Sheets reveal that Randwick played Tonga Tangitau and Patrick Pelligrini off the bench. Patrick Pelligrini has played at the National Schoolboys Championships in 2015 and 2016. Tangitau carries a 6 Player Point loading and has played most of the year as the starting Hooker for The Wix Colts 1 team. Even with these accomplished players (some would even refer to them as parachutists) playing off the bench, The Gallopers still managed to end up on the wrong side of the score sheet.
The Round 14 and Semi Final Team Sheets on the Web site appear to have only minor differences in their roster, and there was no Parachutists used in round 14 to secure their victory. On the other hand, there appear to be rather substantial changes to the roster used by the Gallopers.
From the Gallopers Semi Final Team Sheet, how many Colts 1 games have Matthew Serhon (2014 National Schoolboys Championship player), Josh Noonan, Rory Williams, Sam Musgrove (2015 National Schoolboys Championships player) and Jordan Iremia (2015 National Schoolboys Championships Player) played this season, compared to Colts 3 games?
One could even surmise after looking at the 2016 Randwick Team sheets on the web site, on top of their Schoolboy Rugby CV's, that these players are not Colts 3 standard players. Regardless, Open Selection allows the Wix to legitimately nominate these players and others in Colts 3.
Was it the presence of the extra Colts 1 level players in the Colts 3 Semi Final team that helped you to form the opinion that your team was the "Better Side", despite not being able to beat them on two previous occasions, and not taking the lead until the second half, at which point The Corporations Rock Star single handedly managed to play a game changing 6 minutes.
I also note that The Corporation had one player in the sin bin for 10 minutes. The bloke carded was a player off the bench. Typically these come on in the second half.
How is it possible that the "Better Team" was only able to take the lead in the second half? Did this change of lead, which you say happened in the second half, occur when the 15 "Better Team" players were playing against only 14 players? If so, this is a rather unusual method to determine the "Better Team".
How much time was left on the clock when "Siosi" Rock Star's game changing cameo was over? If it was a filthy match fixing rort, why did The Corporation replace him after only 6 minutes. In a game that was only won by 4 points, if the intent was to guarantee a victory using "filth tactics", why would they take him off with 4 minutes to go, and the match still in the balance?
A "Better Team" with plenty of former elite level Schoolboy players, loaded with lots of Colts 1 and Colts 2 experience to fall back on, should be able to secure a match winning meat pie in the final 4 minutes of game time
It seems that Randwick have taken full advantage of the provisions of Open Selection as the Competition Rules allow. The Corporation also seem to have done similar.
Perhaps Randwick* should champion a case to change the Competition Rules to remove the Open Selection provisions from finals eligibility when they are next reviewed by SRU.
As someone has posted on another thread, there are several certainties that arise from every attempt to level the playing field:
1. There will be loopholes that will be exploited.
2. There will be unintended consequences
3. It will always be the "other" club that is rorting the system
In relation to a claim in post #436 that the Gallopers C3 played a NSW U20 player in the centers earlier in the season, I can find no evidence of this in the team sheets. The closest I can see to that is Jum Woodhill coming off the bench in round 8 and I suspect this was part of a standard graduated return to play protocol after his broken arm (IIRC) mended. Pretty sure that Woodhill was in the initial 60 man Gen Blue U20 extended training squad.
* Good luck with that. AFAIK Randwick is one of a cabal of clubs that are staunch supporters of the Open Selection provisions. Cue Paul Keating "In any horse race, always put your money on Self Interest. At least you know it will be trying".
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Hang on big Arse,
On Saturday Wicks were red lining in 1's with player points, and had 5 spare in 2's (using only 2 replacements)
Wicks weren't sending out weakened 1's & 2's to stack their 3's.
The Uni kid in question had pretty much secured a spot in 1st Grade before being badly concussed 5 weeks ago.
wicks playing several kids who have had colts 1's experience, is a vastly different matter to Uni trotting out a 1st grade player in C3's
......IMO.
On Saturday Wicks were red lining in 1's with player points, and had 5 spare in 2's (using only 2 replacements)
Wicks weren't sending out weakened 1's & 2's to stack their 3's.
The Uni kid in question had pretty much secured a spot in 1st Grade before being badly concussed 5 weeks ago.
wicks playing several kids who have had colts 1's experience, is a vastly different matter to Uni trotting out a 1st grade player in C3's
......IMO.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Don't understand why you would sub the alleged "game changer" off with only a 4 point lead and 4 minutes to go.
"Red lining on points" - Then rest players, or don't recruit so many high point players. Isn't that the intent of the Player Points System? Direct the Surplus High Point Players to the other clubs at registration time. I'm sure the clubs not in the Finals would have welcomed the rejects from Randwix, The Corporation, and Beasties, all of whom sail very close to the wind Player Points wise.
While The Wix "red lined" on points, The Corporation were in a similar position over the weekend (C1 were 38/40 with 2 subs and C2 were 30/35 using 5 subs). Maybe like the Wix, that drove the decision to play the Siaosi cameo in lower grades.
The whole player points regime is a joke. Jack Hayson was the NSW U20 Captain yet is only a 1 Player Point player. Tom Molloy was NSW U20 fly half yet attracts only 1 Player Point. Vunipola Fifita played for Tonga U20 in 2015 and Australian U20 this year, yet only attracts his Australian Schoolboys Player Points rating (before a 1 point local player discount).
Sepesa Loga-Tarogi played NSW U20 this year yet attracts no extra player points loading.
From the Corporation: Champion de Crespigney (1 point) is similarly a Gen Blue U20 player. Horton and Johnson Holmes (both 6 points for Aust Schoolboys) were also in Gen Blue U20 as 18 year olds. No additional Player Points loading this year.
Meanwhile those selected for Australian Barbarians this year will play one game against Tonga. They will be in camp for about a week receiving "elite developlopment" that will result in them having a 6 player point loading for next season.
Gen Blue U20 were in elite academy environment from October to February (with a break for Christmas/New Year) yet they receive zero Player Points loading because there is no recognition of State U20 Representation. State U20 has no loading but State Schoolboy representation attracts a 4 point Player Points loading.
Much of my ramble above was challenging the assertion that the "better team" lost the game. The Better Team were behind until the final 10 minutes when Siaosi played for 6 minutes and at some stage in the second half they played 10 minutes with a 1 man advantage.
The "Better Team" took 50 minutes to get in front, and were unable to score a meat pie in the last 4 minutes, when Siaosi the Rock Star was no longer on the field, to regain the lead. All this while having a 1 man advantage for 10 minutes. To me that really doesn't define a Better Team. Others may think so. They are entitled to think that.
Uni Grade 1 selection has been a swinging door, as it usually is and particularly so this year in the loose forward department and at fly half. I think this is part of their overall player development strategy as well as injury insurance.
I wouldn't say that he had secured a place as a First Grade Player, more that he didn't look out of place in that role, much the same as James Lough and James Wilkinson at Gordon, and Ed Craig at the Woodies. These players are not far off it but they are still very raw and inexperienced. If fit (or not suspended) The Corporation usually call on O'Regan, Wainwright, McCalman, Hickey, Whitely for their starting loose forwards, with Dunbar, Halafonua and others as stopgaps.
I'll probably fire up the Jarse-o-meter later for the full yearly analysis of who played where, and scored what, but in the quick and dirty inspection of the web site team sheets, it seems to me that there are some stones being chucked around in the vicinity of the pot next to the kettle on the stove inside a glasshouse.
I've said my bit. For now I'm calling Rule 10 on myself.
"Red lining on points" - Then rest players, or don't recruit so many high point players. Isn't that the intent of the Player Points System? Direct the Surplus High Point Players to the other clubs at registration time. I'm sure the clubs not in the Finals would have welcomed the rejects from Randwix, The Corporation, and Beasties, all of whom sail very close to the wind Player Points wise.
While The Wix "red lined" on points, The Corporation were in a similar position over the weekend (C1 were 38/40 with 2 subs and C2 were 30/35 using 5 subs). Maybe like the Wix, that drove the decision to play the Siaosi cameo in lower grades.
The whole player points regime is a joke. Jack Hayson was the NSW U20 Captain yet is only a 1 Player Point player. Tom Molloy was NSW U20 fly half yet attracts only 1 Player Point. Vunipola Fifita played for Tonga U20 in 2015 and Australian U20 this year, yet only attracts his Australian Schoolboys Player Points rating (before a 1 point local player discount).
Sepesa Loga-Tarogi played NSW U20 this year yet attracts no extra player points loading.
From the Corporation: Champion de Crespigney (1 point) is similarly a Gen Blue U20 player. Horton and Johnson Holmes (both 6 points for Aust Schoolboys) were also in Gen Blue U20 as 18 year olds. No additional Player Points loading this year.
Meanwhile those selected for Australian Barbarians this year will play one game against Tonga. They will be in camp for about a week receiving "elite developlopment" that will result in them having a 6 player point loading for next season.
Gen Blue U20 were in elite academy environment from October to February (with a break for Christmas/New Year) yet they receive zero Player Points loading because there is no recognition of State U20 Representation. State U20 has no loading but State Schoolboy representation attracts a 4 point Player Points loading.
Much of my ramble above was challenging the assertion that the "better team" lost the game. The Better Team were behind until the final 10 minutes when Siaosi played for 6 minutes and at some stage in the second half they played 10 minutes with a 1 man advantage.
The "Better Team" took 50 minutes to get in front, and were unable to score a meat pie in the last 4 minutes, when Siaosi the Rock Star was no longer on the field, to regain the lead. All this while having a 1 man advantage for 10 minutes. To me that really doesn't define a Better Team. Others may think so. They are entitled to think that.
Uni Grade 1 selection has been a swinging door, as it usually is and particularly so this year in the loose forward department and at fly half. I think this is part of their overall player development strategy as well as injury insurance.
I wouldn't say that he had secured a place as a First Grade Player, more that he didn't look out of place in that role, much the same as James Lough and James Wilkinson at Gordon, and Ed Craig at the Woodies. These players are not far off it but they are still very raw and inexperienced. If fit (or not suspended) The Corporation usually call on O'Regan, Wainwright, McCalman, Hickey, Whitely for their starting loose forwards, with Dunbar, Halafonua and others as stopgaps.
I'll probably fire up the Jarse-o-meter later for the full yearly analysis of who played where, and scored what, but in the quick and dirty inspection of the web site team sheets, it seems to me that there are some stones being chucked around in the vicinity of the pot next to the kettle on the stove inside a glasshouse.
I've said my bit. For now I'm calling Rule 10 on myself.
JimmyLan
Allen Oxlade (6)
Nice 2am ramble Jarse. Of which you have managed to miss my point completely.
So what if I'm more than bitter, why try and poke fun at that? Your opinion on whether or not we were the better side also is irrelevant. Furthermore trying to take the piss of whether we were the better side when we met earlier in the season is a bit crap. The answer to that is no we were not good enough on those two occasions.
Matt, Josh, Jordan, Sam weren't picked to play 2's because the coaches favoured other players based on form, Simple as that.
But you know what we have never had a player in 3rd Grade colts play that has started (No less than 6 games) in First GRADE this season.
So be as cynical as you want I call BS on this regardless of the open selection rules, its not in the spirit of the game!
If you honestly think there is nothing wrong with First Grade senior players that have been deemed good enough to start for a third of the season can go and play 3rd Grade Colts than you're mad. Also that last 4 minutes you speak of, we had momentum taken away by the big fella but we still managed to get from our own 5 metre line to the opposition 5 try line to almost steal victory. My opinion is my own and I stand by it.
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