Sydney Colts - 2014

[Hugh Jarse]

OK thanks for the advice. Taken.

Let us know if you get an answer other than "Wibble"

 

[Rocco]

Hugh Jarse the "Wibble" clip is quality! Great work pulling that one out. The Colts points system and how clubs try to manipulate it is a real concern. I know everyone always carries on about it but how on earth does Uni get their teams under every week?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Where the 46 x 2013 NSW Schoolboys ended up in 2014?
Easts, 1
Forbes, 1
Gordon, 1
NZ, 1
Parramatta, 1
Wests, 1
Eastwood, 2
Manly, 2
Souths, 2
Warringah, 2
Norths, 3
Uni, 3
Loig, 4
Randwick, 6
School, 8
TBC, 8

@Rocco, Uni have not "done" as well as they have in the past from the 2013 NSW I and NSW II team. IMHO, Wicks will have to be very careful about how the points cap is managed this year.

I haven't run the NSW boys from the 2013 Combined States team through the "Where are they now" screen. Might get round to it if I can find a list of them.

 

[Rocco]

Apart from Kellaway, Horwitz and Johnson. Were the wicks at full strength when they lost to Easts?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^ According to their Website the Wicks have also signed Hanigan (ex Joeys and Aust Schoolboys). I do not recall seeing him listed on the Colts or Grade teamsheets from the opening round. Perhaps he was rested after the National U20's.

 

[Done that]

What can be confusing are the points allocated to "reserves".
e.g. for a club which has a bye in 3rd grade colts,there will likely be a large number
of players on the bench for the 2nd grade colts fixture.Most of these are likely
to get some time in the 2nd grade game.A number of the 2nd grade colts,some of whom
may have been replaced in the 2nd grade game, may get some time in the 1st grade
colts fixture.The concept of "fresh reserves"is a consideration also,& the points allocated to them?
3rd grade colts competition has no points restrictions,but their players when subbing in higher grade games
do attract points.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The theory on Player Points as they apply to reserves is crystal clear.

Fresh Reserves attract points, whereas those who have already played previously don't.

From that absolute clarity, it then gets rather murky.

The definition of a Fresh Reserve is open to manipulation. A high points player can run on for 5 minutes in the 2's and then be replaced. He then heads off to the 1's for the warm up and plays off the bench for them at zero points. Imagine the surprise when Johnny Unfit (1 Player Point) is replaced by Peter Rockstar, who has played 5 minutes in the 2's before being subbed in that game, off the bench 3 minutes into the game.

How much game time in the lower grade is needed to be played to be considered not a Fresh Reserve?
How would that be recorded, and by whom? Fox Sports can manage to track playing time, with their cast of hundreds. Team Managers struggle at times to record the actual points scorers, let alone accurately track how much playing time each individual had.

3rd Grade Colts don't attract points when they bench for the 2's, provided they have already played that day, and therefore not classified as Fresh Reserves.

Clubs playing Penrith and Gordon who dont have Colts 3's could consider playing an internal trial or a 10 aside game or something like that before the 2's game, so the boys from the 3's selected to Bench for the 2's are not considered to be points attracting Fresh Reserves.

I think there is an unwritten rule somewhere that former Aust Schoolboys are not permitted to play 3rds Colts (possibly NSW State reps as well) but I can't find it anywhere. It would be a pretty cynical team/Club management strategy if they did do that.

 

[Dave Beat]

The theory on Player Points as they apply to reserves is crystal clear.

.

Hi HJ - i was wondering by any chance if you've worked out South colts points for the weekend - at the moment it looks like they were still playing the preseason 7 a side.

 

[Done that]

The theory on Player Points as they apply to reserves is crystal clear.

Fresh Reserves attract points, whereas those who have already played previously don't.

From that absolute clarity, it then gets rather murky.

The definition of a Fresh Reserve is open to manipulation. A high points player can run on for 5 minutes in the 2's and then be replaced. He then heads off to the 1's for the warm up and plays off the bench for them at zero points. Imagine the surprise when Johnny Unfit (1 Player Point) is replaced by Peter Rockstar, who has played 5 minutes in the 2's before being subbed in that game, off the bench 3 minutes into the game.

How much game time in the lower grade is needed to be played to be considered not a Fresh Reserve?
How would that be recorded, and by whom? Fox Sports can manage to track playing time, with their cast of hundreds. Team Managers struggle at times to record the actual points scorers, let alone accurately track how much playing time each individual had.

3rd Grade Colts don't attract points when they bench for the 2's, provided they have already played that day, and therefore not classified as Fresh Reserves.

Clubs playing Penrith and Gordon who dont have Colts 3's could consider playing an internal trial or a 10 aside game or something like that before the 2's game, so the boys from the 3's selected to Bench for the 2's are not considered to be points attracting Fresh Reserves.

I think there is an unwritten rule somewhere that former Aust Schoolboys are not permitted to play 3rds Colts (possibly NSW State reps as well) but I can't find it anywhere. It would be a pretty cynical team/Club management strategy if they did do that.

Yes,but my point is that what constitutes a "fresh" reserve is unclear,& secondly if a 3rd grade colts player does not have a game when playing Gordon & Penrith for example,
does he attract points in the second grade game as a fresh replacement,or is it assumed,fairly,that he would have played in the 3rd grade game if it was available.In such a case does a club on the Gordan & Penrith weekend,name a 3rd grade team which would have played,& therefore these players do not attract points if they come on as replacements in later games.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hi HJ - i was wondering by any chance if you've worked out South colts points for the weekend - at the moment it looks like they were still playing the preseason 7 a side.

click to go to post 285

Already had a first pass on Colts 1, Colts 2 , and Wicks/Easts (late entry of data) at Posts 285, 286 and 295. All are on page 15 of this thread.
Click above to go to post 285.

Without knowing the precise CV of each player, I think the Hobbits are below the cap, even though they have interpreted the scoring using what appears to be 2013 guidance.

There are some good players in that squad that have been together for a while.

@Tah and Feathers fancies their chances at the pointy end of the season.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Yes,but my point is that what constitutes a "fresh" reserve is unclear,& secondly if a 3rd grade colts player does not have a game when playing Gordon & Penrith for example,
does he attract points in the second grade game as a fresh replacement,or is it assumed,fairly,that he would have played in the 3rd grade game if it was available.In such a case does a club on the Gordan & Penrith weekend,name a 3rd grade team which would have played,& therefore these players do not attract points if they come on as replacements in later games.

In order:
Agreed
Yes
I don't think so
No point unless clubs are going to do something to fatigue the 3rd graders on the 2nds bench.
I see your logic but don't agree that it would be interpreted that way.


The system is clearly broken when half the clubs don't even know how to fill a form in.

I don't necessarily agree with the points system, but what would you propose in its place?
What is the actual purpose of the player points system, and would an actual hardline implementation be good for Shute Shield Rugby, or undermine many of the traditional aspects of the district club participation culture?

Shute Shield Rugby is a sporting competition and not a business/entertainment venture in a sports setting like the AFl and NRL model has become. Shute Shield Rugby is more than just a Brand.


If you have a genuine belief that your club is being shafted, and IMHO there are situations where clubs/treams are receiveing the inedible end of the pineapple here, then feel free to take any or all of my hypotheticals, examples and rants above and on the Shute Shield thread and ask your associated club/team management to raise the issue.

My gut feel is that you will get "Wibble" for an answer, but if you don't ask, you will never know.

 

[Done that]

In order:
Agreed
Yes
I don't think so
No point unless clubs are going to do something to fatigue the 3rd graders on the 2nds bench.
I see your logic but don't agree that it would be interpreted that way.


The system is clearly broken when half the clubs don't even know how to fill a form in.

I don't necessarily agree with the points system, but what would you propose in its place?
What is the actual purpose of the player points system, and would an actual hardline implementation be good for Shute Shield Rugby, or undermine many of the traditional aspects of the district club participation culture?

Shute Shield Rugby is a sporting competition and not a business/entertainment venture in a sports setting like the AFl and NRL model has become. Shute Shield Rugby is more than just a Brand.


If you have a genuine belief that your club is being shafted, and IMHO there are situations where clubs/treams are receiveing the inedible end of the pineapple here, then feel free to take any or all of my hypotheticals, examples and rants above and on the Shute Shield thread and ask your associated club/team management to raise the issue.

My gut feel is that you will get "Wibble" for an answer, but if you don't ask, you will never know.

^^^^^ #311
I agree with "a point system",but not necessarily that which currently exists.
The purpose of a point system I would think , is to provide a more even distribution of good players between all/most of the clubs.
The consequences of this will differ according to which club at which you look, i.e. a positive for some,a negative for others currently.
"fatiguing' the 3rd grade colts team who receive a bye is too vague a concept to be implemented, & the provision of a shadow team,whilst not perfect,
is a fairer method,& is at least as policeable as the current system of monitoring players.
The bottom line is,that if the competition is going have a point system as it currently has,then it must be adhered to ,& breaches penalised.
Rightly or wrongly,supporters & officials of most clubs have been complaining of what they believe is an uneven playing field in the Sydney competition,& it's perceived
consequences,for a number years.
Now that a method of correcting this has perhaps been provided, it is up to those above to take the responsibility of ensuring it is implemented efficiently.
That means that they have to get off their arse & stop complaining.

 

[The Butts]

Clubs playing Penrith and Gordon who dont have Colts 3's could consider playing an internal trial or a 10 aside game or something like that before the 2's game, so the boys from the 3's selected to Bench for the 2's are not considered to be points attracting Fresh Reserves.

Once again I stick my head up and shut my eyes for the approaching bullets. From my very vague understanding of the Sydney Colts Shute Shield competition I have a feeling that Gordon were the whipping boys of the 2013 comp because they couldn't raise a 2nds team.

Fast forward to 2014. The club has worked extremely hard at attracting players and are just a few bodies short of fielding a 3rd grade team - at this point the competition should be cheering and congratulating Gordon. And I know that most of you have.

Then we get this 'points fiasco' where the 2nds team is hovering over the points, even though most of the players are still learning each others names. So . . . to demand that Gordon (and Penrith) take responsibility for this fiasco, and be penalised accordingly is very short sighted indeed.

From what I can gather (and I have no inside knowledge whatsoever), the Gordon club took the brave decision not to field a 3rds team to

(a) prevent injuries to their more inexperienced players​

(b) not to inconvenience other clubs if they HAD to forfeit for some reason - injuries do have a way of sticking their heads up.​

(D) try to avoid the heavy penalties that the Rugby Union places on teams if they have to forfeit.​

My solution (as silly as it may seem). Allow Gordon to field a 3rds team, and if there ARE problems with injuries play a 10-a-side game instead of jumping up and down and demanding punishment.

Fixes a couple of problems - this ridiculous problem with fresh reserves because they don't have a 3rds game, and allows both club's players to have a game of footie.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there are no sheep stations involved down in the "lower colts" just kids having fun and making friends.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I've got your back @the Butts. I have suggested similar in the past.

I am not sure that the Shiraz Swillers would agree to such a simple and reasonably practical solution.

All it takes is for clubs to communicate with Gordon and Penrith early enough in the week (perhaps after Tuesday night training) to see how many players the respective clubs are likely to have on Saturday, and agree whether they will play a "proper game" of 15 aside footy, or slight variation of such down to 10 aside. From the all important competition points table perspective this game is treated as a bye with 0 points going to Gordon/Penrith. Thirds are tuckered out when they bench for the 2's. About 30 kids are getting a game of footy that they wouldn't otherwise get.

Gordon and Penrith get to retain the nucleus of a set of boys to build a Colts 3 around next season, as they are offering them an opportuinty to play footy in some form or other each week instead of only having 8 "ride the pine" for the 2's each week as fresh reserves.

Referees can be switched on/off relatively easily provided the Referees Appointments Manager gets confirmation from the clubs early enough in the week.

IMHO, Clubs in crisis should be assisted by their "brother" clubs banding together to help them to rebuild, rather than put barriers in their way and hoops for them to jump through. The competition is only as good as its weakest member.

If the Gin'n'Tonicers don't like the idea, then perhaps the individual Colts 3 coaches and manager may be able to do some sort of backroom deal on an ad hoc basis. Uni and Penrith seemed to be able to come to an amicable arrangement to get Uni to have an internal trial or something in the "normal" colts 3 time slot. It shouldn't be this hard should it.

 

[refugee]

I've got your back @the Butts. I have suggested similar in the past.

I am not sure that the Shiraz Swillers would agree to such a simple and reasonably practical solution.

All it takes is for clubs to communicate with Gordon and Penrith early enough in the week (perhaps after Tuesday night training) to see how many players the respective clubs are likely to have on Saturday, and agree whether they will play a "proper game" of 15 aside footy, or slight variation of such down to 10 aside. From the all important competition points table perspective this game is treated as a bye with 0 points going to Gordon/Penrith. Thirds are tuckered out when they bench for the 2's. About 30 kids are getting a game of footy that they wouldn't otherwise get.

Gordon and Penrith get to retain the nucleus of a set of boys to build a Colts 3 around next season, as they are offering them an opportuinty to play footy in some form or other each week instead of only having 8 "ride the pine" for the 2's each week as fresh reserves.

Referees can be switched on/off relatively easily provided the Referees Appointments Manager gets confirmation from the clubs early enough in the week.

IMHO, Clubs in crisis should be assisted by their "brother" clubs banding together to help them to rebuild, rather than put barriers in their way and hoops for them to jump through. The competition is only as good as its weakest member.

If the Gin'n'Tonicers don't like the idea, then perhaps the individual Colts 3 coaches and manager may be able to do some sort of backroom deal on an ad hoc basis. Uni and Penrith seemed to be able to come to an amicable arrangement to get Uni to have an internal trial or something in the "normal" colts 3 time slot. It shouldn't be this hard should it.

Mr Jarse for President
best bit heard yet


probably tooo sensible

 

[The Butts]

I've got your back @the Butts. I have suggested similar in the past.

IMHO, Clubs in crisis should be assisted by their "brother" clubs banding together to help them to rebuild, rather than put barriers in their way and hoops for them to jump through. The competition is only as good as its weakest member.

If the Gin'n'Tonicers don't like the idea, then perhaps the individual Colts 3 coaches and manager may be able to do some sort of backroom deal on an ad hoc basis. Uni and Penrith seemed to be able to come to an amicable arrangement to get Uni to have an internal trial or something in the "normal" colts 3 time slot. It shouldn't be this hard should it.

Hugh, I tips me hat. It is great to hear that I have a kindred spirit in the wilderness. Perhaps Sydney RU isn't a lost cause after all with people like yourself seeing the big picture, rather than just looking out for "Club Numero Uno".

In the bush (no I don't wear RM Williams or moleskins) it is not an uncommon practice for clubs to band together to form Barbarian sides - just to make sure the players get a game.

I know I have offended some on the forum, but I believe in what I believe - and that is that Rugby is a game that all our kids should be playing. The game is all about the players, not about protecting boundaries.

Unfortunately I don't have the contacts to put these proposals to people in the know. Perhaps they will read G&GR and seize the moment . . . . West Harbour/Penrith/Eastwood/Gordon would be a good start.

In the wise words of The Refugee "Mr Jarse for President".

 

[Dave Beat]

A good write, and a bit on Sths motivator.

Thanks to the Manly Roos for again assisting and providing their field set-up gear while a cricket grand final is played at Manly Oval.

Round 1 Results v Southern Districts

With Roy Masters driving the team bus, the Souths players came to Manly as a very committed group, focused on going home with wins, and they did;

Third Grade 17 – 20
Second Grade 10 – 21
First Grade 21 – 24

These were not the results that the effort put in by the players and coaches during pre-season deserved but the success of Souths cannot be begrudged. All the games could have been won by the Marlins and will provide a base for the Colts to spring from against Parramatta.

Some silver lining: ARU announces U20 extended player squad to prepare for the IRB Junior World Championship

Congratulations to Rory O’Connor and Matt Philip who were today named in a squad of 32 to play against Fiji and Samoa in preparation for the IRB Junior World Championship in New Zealand in June.

In addition to Rory and Matt, 2013 Marlins Colt Lalakai Foketi (with the Rebels) is also a member of the squad.

 

[Tah and feathered]

Already had a first pass on Colts 1, Colts 2 , and Wicks/Easts (late entry of data) at Posts 285, 286 and 295. All are on page 15 of this thread.
Click above to go to post 285.

Without knowing the precise CV of each player, I think the Hobbits are below the cap, even though they have interpreted the scoring using what appears to be 2013 guidance.

There are some good players in that squad that have been together for a while.

@Tah and Feathers fancies their chances at the pointy end of the season.

Already had a first pass on Colts 1, Colts 2 , and Wicks/Easts (late entry of data) at Posts 285, 286 and 295. All are on page 15 of this thread.
Click above to go to post 285.

Without knowing the precise CV of each player, I think the Hobbits are below the cap, even though they have interpreted the scoring using what appears to be 2013 guidance.

There are some good players in that squad that have been together for a while.

@Tah and Feathers fancies their chances at the pointy end of the
There was a stuff up with the Souths local players and just having a quick look and adding the extra points based on my knowledge of the players there is another 8 points to be added. Could be 3 or 4 extra as I don't know them all but well under the 40 points.
Souths were beaten in the final by Uni last year with most of that team returning and have been training 4 nights a week since November. Biggest issue last year was depth and that has clearly been fixed with win in all grades over Wests,Easts and Manly.

 

[couldabeen]

tips for 2nd round this weekend.
First Colts in bold. Second Colts underlined
Mostly based on last week's form. The NSW 20's will be in this week so I am not confident about Norths over Randwick.
Penrith v West Harbour
Eastwood v Gordon
Norths v Randwick
Warringah v Southern
Manly v Parramatta
University v Easts

 

[MACCA]

Apart from Kellaway, Horwitz and Johnson. Were the wicks at full strength when they lost to Easts?

There were another 3 out, and Wicks captain went down early and was taken off with a broken ankle. I reckon Easts deserve a wrap, they showed great defence and were very committed & physical. They were the better side on the day. The poor old ref struggled however Easts deserved to win.