Sydney Colts 2012

[southsider]

Once kids start high school, compulsory Saturday sport for the private schoolboys makes it near impossible for them to play club rugby too.
.

cant agree there, went to a private school and i would say 80% plus of guys who were playing club before they reached high school continued on when they entered high school. in my year we even had multiple guys in opens i.e 1st and 2nd xv's who played club

 

[MACCA]

RUGBY NEWS COLTS TEAM OF THE YEAR
(in yesterdays programme)

1 Allan Alaatatoa - WH
2 Tim Reid - Uni
3 Ehpraim Lesa - Easts
4 Hugh Sinclair - Norths
5 Will Munro - Wicks
6 Rhys Domblkns - Manly
7 Jack Walters - Norths
8 Pierce Howell - Warr
9 Matthew Hayter - Gdn
10 Jake Holman - Parra
11 Brad Curtis - Woodies
12 Paul Asquith -Souths
13 Aiden Anderson - Wicks
14 James Dargaville - Uni
15 Lachlan Fox - Penrith

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Colts Team of the Year selection of the year criteria was that each club had to have at least one representative selected.

This can be a significant restraint at times.

 

[no9]

No.9 settle down clubs going to carnivals is about recruiting that's how clubs get players. How can a player out of school go to Partamatta or Penrith to play colts
They don't have teams you goose.
Good to see everyone having a dig at Randwick which is fine they are struggling in 1st grade and will miss the semi finals for about the 10th time in 90 years so they should hang there head in shame
They are on track to get 3 grades into the finals and 3 colts into the finals.

Part of why they don't have the required teams you goose is because of the recruiting done by the other clubs. Later posts from you and your friend Drew state that Easts and Randwick's player pool are around 50% juniors based. Where do the other 50% come from? Uni's would be 100% non juniors as they don't have a recognised junior district although the funding to the Canterbury club to act in this capacity camouflages the issue.

Everyone understands that recruitment is part of life but when one district suffers at the hands of others some compensation is required to sustain the talent coming through. Put simply the majority of the young footballing population resides in the greater west from which many of the well recognised clubs like to pick the best of the talent by offering incentives that aren't available to them in the local area. This in itself isn't the problem as every player should be able to do the best for themselves and in some cases it can mean the difference between receiving an education or not which has more far reaching implications.

But you can't just keep drawing from the well and not expect it to dry up and then have people like you running around spouting how western clubs are at fault or don't look after their players and don't do enough to be deserving of any financial support. God forbid if the roles were reversed and players were leaving Randwick to play at other clubs. Your description of Parramatta and Penrith as being big country areas tells me you haven't so much got your head in the sand, rather more stuck in your arse. Yes, players from Bathurst or any other country area would consider an opportunity if it arose but the 15-25% youth unemployment rate in the west means there are less opportunities available than at some of the better connected eastern and northern clubs. Is this also of Parramatta's or Penriths making? Sometimes cirumstances are dictated by means out of your control (unless a financial benefactor appears on your doorstep one day offering to help like Norths have managed) and you can't meet your own expectations let alone others. Randwicks large debt to council could be seen as an example of this.

Sonecutters comment that the administration of the game fails to recognise the importance of the west couldn't be truer. All those kids out there perceive that the only way to a Wallaby shirt is from Private school to Australian schools to Uni club rugby/Provincial contract. If you can't satisfy any of these criteria they show very little interest in the offer no matter how good it is. The help required is not in the funding of strapping for a colts team but showing kids that the opportunty to play at the highest levels can be achieved whether you attend Plumpton High or Scots College or whether you play colts for Parramatta or University. Until this issue and the cannabilisation of clubs within the same competition is addressed then it will continue to be a struggle to draw players to certain clubs no matter what they try.

*Plumpton is a country like suburb between Parramatta and Penrith tahboy.

 

[Blackers13]

Part of why they don't have the required teams you goose is because of the recruiting done by the other clubs. Later posts from you and your friend Drew state that Easts and Randwick's player pool are around 50% juniors based. Where do the other 50% come from? Uni's would be 100% non juniors as they don't have a recognised junior district although the funding to the Canterbury club to act in this capacity camouflages the issue.

Everyone understands that recruitment is part of life but when one district suffers at the hands of others some compensation is required to sustain the talent coming through. Put simply the majority of the young footballing population resides in the greater west from which many of the well recognised clubs like to pick the best of the talent by offering incentives that aren't available to them in the local area. This in itself isn't the problem as every player should be able to do the best for themselves and in some cases it can mean the difference between receiving an education or not which has more far reaching implications.

But you can't just keep drawing from the well and not expect it to dry up and then have people like you running around spouting how western clubs are at fault or don't look after their players and don't do enough to be deserving of any financial support. God forbid if the roles were reversed and players were leaving Randwick to play at other clubs. Your description of Parramatta and Penrith as being big country areas tells me you haven't so much got your head in the sand, rather more stuck in your arse. Yes, players from Bathurst or any other country area would consider an opportunity if it arose but the 15-25% youth unemployment rate in the west means there are less opportunities available than at some of the better connected eastern and northern clubs. Is this also of Parramatta's or Penriths making? Sometimes cirumstances are dictated by means out of your control (unless a financial benefactor appears on your doorstep one day offering to help like Norths have managed) and you can't meet your own expectations let alone others. Randwicks large debt to council could be seen as an example of this.

Sonecutters comment that the administration of the game fails to recognise the importance of the west couldn't be truer. All those kids out there perceive that the only way to a Wallaby shirt is from Private school to Australian schools to Uni club rugby/Provincial contract. If you can't satisfy any of these criteria they show very little interest in the offer no matter how good it is. The help required is not in the funding of strapping for a colts team but showing kids that the opportunty to play at the highest levels can be achieved whether you attend Plumpton High or Scots College or whether you play colts for Parramatta or University. Until this issue and the cannabilisation of clubs within the same competition is addressed then it will continue to be a struggle to draw players to certain clubs no matter what they try.

*Plumpton is a country like suburb between Parramatta and Penrith tahboy.

Absolutely correct No 9. I have been making the same points all year. Rugby needs the west but as you say the well will run dry eventually if no development effort is put in place. A couple of presidents of city/coastal clubs have expressed to me they fear Parramatta and Penrith getting their act together. I can't speak for Penrith but Parramatta are about to launch a 2013 Colts program that will surprise many, the first step in strengthening the club depth. Unfortunately for Tahboy, trips to Granville Park will continue and they won't be pleasant, for the right reasons.

 

[Drew]

Nobodies saying the west isn't needed. My earlier suggestion that parra/penrith cohost colts is, I think, a valid way of keeping both teams in colts until they can strengthen their programs. The fact is that uni openly pursue juniors, which means to remain somewhat competitive recruitment is necessary. Of the players at randwick who aren't from village clubs most come from regional areas. Who lays claim to them if randwick doesn't? Pretty sure nobody at easts or randwick has been openly recruited fromm hills sports high. From what I heard the parra 17s team was really good at the recent tournament, hopefully they can keep that squad together and rebuild so that they can harness what is available talentwise out there. Two blues was a force when I was a kid, eels were good then too.
Btw, not sure if I know tahboy, will do some detective work at the next game to see who my buddy is. The reason I know he's randwick is from his posts.

 

[Drew]

And on a different note, did I read correctly that woodies 2s beat uni on the weekend? If so, uni 2s haven't lost for years have they?

 

[bboowwyy]

Hey guys, just thought i'd share a few pics from the Norths vs Manly games from yesterday - http://www.flickr.com/photos/46357735@N08/sets/72157630911593210/with/7715827552/

 

[Tahboy]

When I went to parramatta and Penrith recently. I saw open fields and trees and houses with space between them and gum trees and just a few blocks of flats. To me that is more a country feel than randwick, kingsford , maroubra area.
We can go at each other all day but let's agree to disagree and see what happens next season.

 

[Knuckles]

Tahboy, is it glass half full or half empty?

You seem to be favouring kicking Parramatta and Penrith while they're down. I must admit, I am sympathetic to their plight and I do see both clubs being strong as vital to the strength of the competition. I dont believe anyone, or certainly hardly anyone on this forum has the power to change the rules of the competition. It's a shame, as there seems to be some great ideas here.....at times. But yours is not one of them. For the uninitiated, forcing Parra and Penrith to merge, at any level is a recipe for disaster. People who reside closer to the city, generally are a little ignorant of not only the struggle but also the tyranny of distance. So i'll paint a picture for you. Rat Park is closer to Sydney University number 1 than Granville Park is to Nepean Rugby Park. We welcome all opinions here, its the basis of the forum, so can you please tell us how you see a merger working between our western sydney brothers?

Perhaps another way for the colts competition to atleast even out over time is to bring in a rule where any player who wishes to play in the Sydney Colts competition MUST play for the club closest to his home address for atleast the first 2 years out of high school. Any players who then wish to join the competition from outside the Sydney basin must go into a draft. The draft would be based on the afl player draft system, which clearly works. Perhaps give an exemption where the son of an old boy of a club is entitled to play for the club his father did.

If this was applied, it would only take 2 years before a clear effect on the comp will be noticable. It would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons, and those clubs who have drunk from the talent well of western sydney for years, you know who you are, will be forced to develop from within their junior ranks.

Blaming Parramatta and Penrith for the situation they are in is somewhat premature at this stage. I believe, the people who have allowed their situation to go on unchecked for the 15 years you mention, arent the hard working volunteers who work their back side off to field teams, but its NSWRU and ARU development. Lets never forget, the ARU spent $45 million after RWC 2003 developing an on line registration system that is still seriously flawed. We all sit here and complain about the lack of $ both ARU and NSWRU currently have and are powerless to compete against the financial might of the AFL and the Mungoes. But guess what, it was rugby's own managerial incompetency over a number of years post RWC 2003 that kicked the game in the guts. And unless we are lucky enough in the next 8 years to host another RWC, then the funding into the game is limited and ultimately the game is doomed.

Let's not kick clubs when they are down because we all have our own self centred ambitions in mind. Lets help them to their feet because when they become the strong, the competition is strong, which makes all clubs in it......well you know......

 

[southsider]

Perhaps another way for the colts competition to atleast even out over time is to bring in a rule where any player who wishes to play in the Sydney Colts competition MUST play for the club closest to his home address for atleast the first 2 years out of high school. Any players who then wish to join the competition from outside the Sydney basin must go into a draft. The draft would be based on the afl player draft system, which clearly works. Perhaps give an exemption where the son of an old boy of a club is entitled to play for the club his father did.

i like this idea ALOT but think it might not be the best for teams like sydney uni, easts and randwick who are close together, although in saying that they probably do the most recruiting of players from out of their area but i guess with the 2 year period they wont be affected too much

 

[Done that]

An alternative proposition is to have clubs who are clearly not up to the required strength , play in the sub district competition for a year or two perhaps , to develop their talent pool & increase numbers ,
& when they have shown that they have developed to the necessary level , promote them to the main competition again.

 

[I like to watch]

doen't work, it's invariably a one way trip. Demote a club and you automatically lose a dozen or so of your best players who want to play in the shute shield.
It's impossible to build up from there

 

[Mr Magoo]

Yes agree that consideration should be given to the clubs that have spent time and energy in developing the players. Clubs such as Norths, Randwick, Gordon etc that devote time, energy and $$$$ to devolpment and should be their first option post school. Some people suggest that clubs like uni should pay a transfer price, but there has been a resistance to this option, but I feel it has merit.

 

[Blackers13]

Tahboy, is it glass half full or half empty?

You seem to be favouring kicking Parramatta and Penrith while they're down. I must admit, I am sympathetic to their plight and I do see both clubs being strong as vital to the strength of the competition. I dont believe anyone, or certainly hardly anyone on this forum has the power to change the rules of the competition. It's a shame, as there seems to be some great ideas here...at times. But yours is not one of them. For the uninitiated, forcing Parra and Penrith to merge, at any level is a recipe for disaster. People who reside closer to the city, generally are a little ignorant of not only the struggle but also the tyranny of distance. So i'll paint a picture for you. Rat Park is closer to Sydney University number 1 than Granville Park is to Nepean Rugby Park. We welcome all opinions here, its the basis of the forum, so can you please tell us how you see a merger working between our western sydney brothers?

Perhaps another way for the colts competition to atleast even out over time is to bring in a rule where any player who wishes to play in the Sydney Colts competition MUST play for the club closest to his home address for atleast the first 2 years out of high school. Any players who then wish to join the competition from outside the Sydney basin must go into a draft. The draft would be based on the afl player draft system, which clearly works. Perhaps give an exemption where the son of an old boy of a club is entitled to play for the club his father did.

If this was applied, it would only take 2 years before a clear effect on the comp will be noticable. It would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons, and those clubs who have drunk from the talent well of western sydney for years, you know who you are, will be forced to develop from within their junior ranks.

Blaming Parramatta and Penrith for the situation they are in is somewhat premature at this stage. I believe, the people who have allowed their situation to go on unchecked for the 15 years you mention, arent the hard working volunteers who work their back side off to field teams, but its NSWRU and ARU development. Lets never forget, the ARU spent $45 million after RWC 2003 developing an on line registration system that is still seriously flawed. We all sit here and complain about the lack of $ both ARU and NSWRU currently have and are powerless to compete against the financial might of the AFL and the Mungoes. But guess what, it was rugby's own managerial incompetency over a number of years post RWC 2003 that kicked the game in the guts. And unless we are lucky enough in the next 8 years to host another RWC, then the funding into the game is limited and ultimately the game is doomed.

Let's not kick clubs when they are down because we all have our own self centred ambitions in mind. Lets help them to their feet because when they become the strong, the competition is strong, which makes all clubs in it..well you know..

Spot on Knuckles and some good ideas. Parramatta have been arguably the strongest developer of juniors for the past 10 years. State Championships results and the spread of juniors throughout Sydney clubs prove that. Parra's problem has been bringing them to Colts. Up until this year, parents and players of any ability looked at Parramatta as a schemozzle and rightfully so. A lot has changed at Parramatta and they are heading in the right direction but, like most clubs, are cash strapped. The clubs with cash will still pick off who they want. So, either your 2 year idea or an injection of cash SPECIFICALLY to retain juniors to Colts is needed if we are to achieve a balanced spread of talent.

 

[Done that]

doen't work, it's invariably a one way trip. Demote a club and you automatically lose a dozen or so of your best players who want to play in the shute shield.
It's impossible to build up from there

No, I am referring to the colts teams only , not the grade teams.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

One of the problems that the clubs out west face is that their juniors get to play both codes, Union and League, while they are juniors. They do this either through school or on the weekend (Union on Saturday and League on Sunday). This is why their juniors do well - they have a good pool to draw from. When the boys leave school they opt to play league as this is where they can get some money from what they do or what they prefer to play. In the past the option of playing rugby past school hasn't been around or publicised. The solution is to get these boys to consider rugby after school and promote it as a viable alternative. From what i have heard both Parra and Penrith are well down this path in showing our game as an alternative.

They have their senior sides showing definite improvement and with the coaches and management involved this improvement will definitely filter down to their colts in the next 2 - 3 years. If AFL is willing to give GWS 10 years to be successful I think we can give Parra and Penrith ample time to improve rugby's standing in the west. Hopefully NSWRU will support them and attitudes like those expressed by some on this forum where rugby is seen to be the jewel of the east can be howled into obscurity

 

[Dave Beat]

Hopefully NSWRU will support them and attitudes like those expressed by some on this forum where rugby is seen to be the jewel of the east can be howled into obscurity

They are already arent they - it is alleged the Tah's have breached the salary cap, and paid two Shute Sheild / S15 club players.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Yes agree that consideration should be given to the clubs that have spent time and energy in developing the players. Clubs such as Norths, Randwick, Gordon etc that devote time, energy and $$$$ to devolpment and should be their first option post school. Some people suggest that clubs like uni should pay a transfer price, but there has been a resistance to this option, but I feel it has merit.

It is a dangerous assumption that Districts Clubs have actually developed many of the kids who front up to Colts.

Some kids rise to the top from School development, having been overlooked by their previous village club district.

Surely you are aware of Junior footy parent and club politics. Some parents chose to take their kid to another district/club, or to rely on schools only development for these reasons.

Some kids rise to the top on the back of mungoball junior development programmes. Transfer fees to the Mungo Clubs? Hmmmm.

Many late bloomers have sat on the bench at NSW State Champs in the under 10's-under 15's (if they have even made the team in the first place), and have little game time. Should this "development" be rewarded?

I know of a current Oakhill star who could not get a gig with Eastwood Juniors at younger age groups despite playing village footy in the Eastwood district, and only got Rep experiences via a West Harbour lifeline. This boy will be a good find for whatever Colts team he choses to align himself with. Not exactly a common story but it still happens a fair bit.

Boys from Easts Juniors typically have to try out for State Champs with other districts. Who do you propose will get those transfer fees?

Transfer fees, like communism, are a good idea but ultimately they will not work.

 

[Tahboy]

Some really good discussion points but I will ask a couple of simple questions
Will Parramatta and Penrith field 3 colts sides next year?
I would say over the past 15 years both clubs have consistently not fielded 3 sides so how long is this resurgence from the West going to take?
Is it true that when Parramatta leagues club sponsored Parramatta rugby club they gave Parramatta 500k per season ?
I am not against the clubs being in the comp and I don't believe they should amalgamate as that will never work
I would just like to see 3 games of colts at Parramatta and Penrith and once this happens then those clubs will get stronger
Parramatta I think have zero points in colts club championship and there is one game to go. Where are the future 1st graders going to come from?
Canberra and NZ like most of the current group
Oops this will get juices flowing