Syd Uni whines yet again...

[Ash]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/...-down-a-dynasty/2008/10/29/1224956135939.html

Yes, Sydney Uni, the entire world is against you and your lack of juniors. Exactly how many free degrees does $145,000 a year buy? I am guessing anywhere around 15 - 25.

However, it is a wonderfully balanced article that fairly mentions the struggles of teams like Penrith, Paramatta, etc with repeated raids on their players by the top teams.

Dastardly plot to tear down a dynasty

Paul Sheehan
October 30, 2008
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YESTERDAY the oldest rugby club in Australia, Sydney University Football club, was honoured by the Herald as club of the year. For its efforts, University is now going to be royally shafted. Not by rival codes, but by rugby itself.

Never underestimate the downward mobility of rugby politics in Australia. Attempts to weaken Sydney University, or remove it from the first grade competition entirely, have gone on for years. Given that this latest move may be illegal, and Sydney University has an army of lawyer alumni, I hope an injunction will be forthcoming.

University's problem is that it has created a dynasty in the Sydney club competition, the primary nursery of elite Australian rugby, though it is only a recent dynasty. University has appeared in eight of the past 10 first-grade grand finals, winning five, including the past four. It has won the club championship (overall strength through all seven grades) seven times in 10 years and been runner-up the other three years. Across all grades, University has won 34 premierships in the past 10 seasons.

In response, the other 11 clubs recently voted in favour of a complex quota system which puts a cap on the number of quality players a club can have. The vote was 11-1. The quota is designed to stop any club from stockpiling talent. Such is the resentment towards University that a mythology has grown that it has a bottomless well of scholarships to offer players, an unfair advantage. The bottomless well is actually $145,000 a year. That's the nub.

What is strange about the sudden need for quotas is that the issue did not arise when the competition was dominated for decades by one club, Randwick, which enjoyed a dynasty lasting 40 years. Between 1965 and 2004 Randwick won 22 premierships and appeared in 27 grand finals. The next best club won four. No one talked about quotas. Did Randwick's decades of dominance stunt Sydney rugby? No. While Randwick was appearing in 16 consecutive grand finals (1977 to 1992) Australian rugby enjoyed its greatest growth spurt.

At the time University was enduring a generation of futility, 29 years without a first-grade premiership. In 1996 it was warned its future in first grade was in jeopardy. Given it had been shunted down to second division twice before, and immediately won promotion, University treated this as an emergency and responded accordingly. Apparently it has responded too well.

 

[fatprop]

It would be nice to see an even comp with the Sydney Uni talent warehousing eliminated

 

[formeropenside]

Good point about Randwick though.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah it was a good point.

I don't think there would be a lot of us here with too much sympathy towards Sydney Uni but somehow it's all a bit unsavoury.

I wonder if something smarter could have been done - though I have no clue what it should be.

I wonder also if the way the quotas will be administered will be all sweetness and light. How can you give quota points for a Wallaby who can play only 2 games, or a Super 14 player who is a bolter for the Wallabies out of the S14 but the quotas were already set in place before that.

And how can you be forced to drop a player who lives over the road from the club ground and has played all his junior rugby in the area. How do you give a quota discount for an ex-junior?

Good luck with all of that. I can see solicitors, barristers and QCs buying another family Merc or Beamer.

Look, if this, works out and players are willing to go out west or south to weaker Sydney clubs - and it has the effect of making the 12 1st Grade clubs equal, give or take, I'd be all for it, but it has been my experience that often these elegant theories don't work out.

The best solution is as NTA and others have said: grow the game out west (and south) and build the player numbers and numbers of colts and grade teams, and use strategies to keep them there. Or something along those lines, to get a natural improvement in weak teams.

When handing out money to clubs, fund the historically weak clubs more generously to help in missionary work and junior development, control this spending stringently, and take money away from more successful clubs so the total spend is the same.

What they have come up with is an artificial fix like hammering a few more nails into a house with rotten wood.

I don't think it will work - but as usual with some of my fearless predictions: I will be happy to be wrong.

 

[Pfitzy]

Put Uni, Randwick, and Easts into a comp on their own. Let the rest of us get on with it.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

All very good arguements but I think the point was made clearly, Randwick had a mythical tenure on rugby for years yet the competition didn't waver - yeah we all hated them and put curses on anything green - but they were damned good and their efforts attracted the better talent.
Eastwood for example didn't win it's first premiership until 1999 yet for many, many years were within reach of the top (very frustrating for us back then) and they remain a good solid club simply because they nurture a junior culture as good as any club in the world.
Rugby is cyclical, time will one day anoint another club, we will all forget this meaningless conjecture.
Just be grateful you are in Sydney and not Brisbane - at least you have a competition of which to be proud.

 

[naza]

We need more Sydney Unis, not less.

 

[Ash]

All very good arguements but I think the point was made clearly, Randwick had a mythical tenure on rugby for years yet the competition didn't waver - yeah we all hated them and put curses on anything green - but they were damned good and their efforts attracted the better talent.
Eastwood for example didn't win it's first premiership until 1999 yet for many, many years were within reach of the top (very frustrating for us back then) and they remain a good solid club simply because they nurture a junior culture as good as any club in the world.
Rugby is cyclical, time will one day anoint another club, we will all forget this meaningless conjecture.

Right. Rugby is cyclical...between 3 - 4 clubs: Syd Uni, Eastwood, Randwick and, maybe, Easts.

Problem is, at least 3 of those 4 clubs are more interested in themselves then growth of the game - opposition to the MARC, raping players from the lesser clubs, stockpiling players, trying to create "national" comps that involve just them from Sydney. Something is wrong when Sydney Uni's 2nd grade team can beat most other 1st grade team, and maybe even their 3rd grade team could beat teams like Penrith - and top on of that, Uni has no juniors. At full strength, Uni has Waratahs running around in 2nd grade.

Maybe Uni should make efforts to show how they are helping to grow the game - especially because, for the average punter like me, I can't see how they are helping.

If the cap does help clubs like Penrith, Paramatta, Southern Districts, etc (places dominated by league, soccer or AFL) grow, then it is for the good of the game. It's sad when players leave those traditionally weak teams to play for Syd Uni, Randwick, etc because it so greatly enhances their chances of playing rep football.

Just be grateful you are in Sydney and not Brisbane - at least you have a competition of which to be proud.

A stupid and useless trolling comment. Worthy of being ignored.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

 

[Ash]

We need more Sydney Unis, not less.

What? More clubs with no juniors, who can afford to give lots of academic scholarships? More clubs from the traditionally more affluent areas of Sydney? More clubs giving out 40 point thrashings to the team that's 4th or 5th on the ladder? More clubs stockpiling players so that their seconds could likely make the finals of the firsts?

We need more encouragement to players in all areas of Sydney. Stronger junior and grass roots growth in fringe areas. No raping of good players from marginal teams.

Or, as you said, we can have more Sydney Unis. More dominant teams in rugby's heartland at the expense of the game.

Time to climb off my soapbox.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

A stupid and useless trolling comment. Worthy of being ignored.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Thank you,
I actually meant the comment sincerely.
Having played for many years in Sydney, grade and subbies, I can assure you the standard of competition and structure in Sydney far outstrip that in Brisbane.

I also am not too familiar with your new quota system as it hasn't had too much - if any publicity in Queensland.
I agree that if players are forced to migrate to the weaker clubs it would be a good thing for the competition, but which clubs would that benefit. I doubt a player forced from Uni will travel to Parramatta or Penrith - more likely they will reinforce the talent at Easts, Randwick, maybe Manly or Eastwood.
It is not good that Uni does not have juniors, but that has always been the case. I have no answer for that other than perhaps they could be amalgamated with junior clubs that are in place in their area or be affiliated with a satelite organisation. You would of course need to change the Uni charter of 'students only', then you open up the case of players freely going to Uni.
From memory they also do not have the club facilities, after their playing/uni days are over many players leave the Club and so they don't enjoy the club conraderie that others do.
I also was not aware of the fact you raise of their seconds fielding Waratahs - cannot be good for the game but again, Randwick had similar situations back in the 70's and 80's had wallabies playing in 2nd grade such was their strength.

The main concern I read is that Uni has excessively high numbers of good players and are reaping/raping more from other clubs. OK, the quota should fix that.
You have problem and whatever solution is put forward will assuredly upset many people.

 

[Scarfman]

A stupid and useless trolling comment. Worthy of being ignored.

I'm assuming, Ash, that you don't realise that RW is a Queenslander.

 

[Scarfman]

The point has to be whether or not what Sydney Uni is doing is considered FAIR. Of course, everyone's definition of fair is different. but even in the uber-market economy, the USA, they have quotas and drafts, and so on (interfering in the free market) to ensure that their sporting competitions provide close games.

I don't know the detail, but the rumours suggest that Sydney Uni is not playing fair by my reckoning.

 

[Ash]

A stupid and useless trolling comment. Worthy of being ignored.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Thank you,
I actually meant the comment sincerely.
Having played for many years in Sydney, grade and subbies, I can assure you the standard of competition and structure in Sydney far outstrip that in Brisbane.

Fair enough, I was pretty harsh with my reply. The Brisbane comp may be weaker, but I think the Sydney comp is only really to be proud of if you're an Eastwood, Syd Uni or Randwick member - it has a long way to go. Others will disagree. Admittedly I don't know too much about the Brisbane comp now.

Embarassingly I didn't get to too many games this year...I was too cheap to pay the $15 entry - but it's free entry to Eastwood games if you're a North Ryde RSL member. Mainly went to Sydney Uni games, including the so depressing anhiliation of the 3rd/4th placed West Harbour. Not a glowing endoresement of the comp, especially when Uni dominates in nearly all grades.

I used to play for UNSW, similar in many respects to Uni, but without the ability to really buy players since it had no real budget, even for a 1st div subbies club. Most of the UNSW players come from UNSW students - there was a strong smattering of colts in 1st grade, 2nd grade and, a few years ago, 5th grade, which was nearly the second colts team. The 1st grade, 2nd, 3rd and 4th grades were otherwise ex-UNSW students or old time players running around for fun, and then the very few other players (the real minority) were people who lived in the area. No real chance for juniors unfortunately, and I think it hurts the club, lacking that foundation.

I also am not too familiar with your new quota system as it hasn't had too much - if any publicity in Queensland.

From what I understand, it's overly complicated and may not work. I hope that it does do something positive, but I would bow to Lee's superior knowledge and if he has doubts... :-X

It is not good that Uni does not have juniors, but that has always been the case. I have no answer for that other than perhaps they could be amalgamated with junior clubs that are in place in their area or be affiliated with a satelite organisation. You would of course need to change the Uni charter of 'students only', then you open up the case of players freely going to Uni.
From memory they also do not have the club facilities, after their playing/uni days are over many players leave the Club and so they don't enjoy the club conraderie that others do.
I also was not aware of the fact you raise of their seconds fielding Waratahs - cannot be good for the game but again, Randwick had similar situations back in the 70's and 80's had wallabies playing in 2nd grade such was their strength.

Out of interest, here is the list of Sydney Uni Tahs from the Tahs' website. Uni's locking depth, until the retirement of Al Kanaar due to injury, was unreal. Jeremy Tilse was overlooked for 1st grade for Jerry Y, who's since signed for the Brumbies Academy, and Laurie Weeks, who's since signed for the Reds. Hooker Charles has since signed for the Brumbies Academy.

(I've moved the positions near each other)

Player Position Club
Jeremy Tilse Prop Sydney University

Will Caldwell Lock Sydney University
Daniel Vickerman Lock Sydney University
Dean Mumm Lock/Flanker Sydney University
Alex Kanaar Lock/Flanker Sydney University


David Dennis Flanker Sydney University
Phil Waugh Flanker Sydney University
David Lyons No.8 Sydney University
(ex-Waratah no.8 / flanker Tim Davidson is the Uni captain)

Daniel Halangahu Utility Back Sydney University
Tom Carter Centre Sydney University
Alfi Mafi Wing/Fullback Sydney University

Uni's players from other S14 teams:
Al Campbell (yet another) Lock Brumbies
Jerry Y Loosehead Brumbies Academy (newly signed)
Nathan Charles Hooker Brumbies Academy (newly signed)
Laurie Weeks Tighthead Reds (newly signed)
Peter Betham Fullback Brumbies (is he still a Uni player?)

I think Julian Huxley was also a Sydney Uni player until his retirement. Halfback Nick Haydon also got signed to the Brumbies Academy? (Or is my memory wrong?)

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Thanks for your reply Ash - no offence taken. Being an imported Queenslander I have a bit thicker skin than the normal lot up here.
Ok well that list certainly makes sence of any arguement to restrict players to clubs - but here is a poser for you,
I have a fairly handy son as a player, (no names etc but should make Aust Schoolboys) and in the eventuallity he takes or gets a Waratahs contract, he will more than likely go to the Woods out of sever family pressure of if Uni give a scholarship - well it speaks for itself (by the way, being an ex Woodsman I shudder at the thought).
In days gone by it was always more fun playing against UNNSW than SYDUNI - far more of a club atmosphere and team comraderie.
Don't be too hard on the Woods, they did it very tough for the majority of their history, also did their stint in second division but they have developed a great junior program.
Surely Sydney Uni could be cajoled into putting somethng back into rugby by way of fostering a subbies club or junior program, but that many top line players is a teeny bit unfair.

 

[Pfitzy]

They already foster a Subbies club - they have a 6th Division side Finished out of the finals this year but I'm assuming its put together by the students themselves, not the pros

 

[hi-jinks]

The points system

Hello fellow club rugby lovers.

OK, hot from the press, a new points system is being tabled to try and draft the schoolboy talent more evenly across the Sydney club comp. I cannot reveal my source (let's just say the system is seemingly so conveluted that Telle scribe Terry Smith, has descrided as it as being voted in over whelmingly 11-1, gee I wonder who opposed it???).
Anyway, I for one am not that impressed that the tax payer dollar is going towards Uni poaching all the talent.
It's not a case of the other clubs trying harder, Uni are using government money to lure players - it stinks.

 

[formeropenside]

drafts never work though

 

[hi-jinks]

Good to see I'm up to date!!
Hey, Im getting better, I used to be 10 yrs behind!!!!

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Re: The points system

Hello fellow club rugby lovers.
Anyway, I for one am not that impressed that the tax payer dollar is going towards Uni poaching all the talent.
It's not a case of the other clubs trying harder, Uni are using government money to lure players - it stinks.

So it's not that they are hoarding players that you are against, it's the source of funding.
Heaven forbid, did anyone cry foul in the 70's/80's when Randwick basicially had 75% of the Wallabies and everyone suspected there was lot of cash being handed around back then long before professional rugby was in vogue.

 

[fatprop]

S14 squad players running around in the 2nds & 3rds for Uni is not helping anyone