Surprise, surprise, the rules sort out some scrums

[fatprop]

Ian Smith was the pedantic ref at scrum time for the Reds v Force game yesterday and he insisted that every prop be able to and touch the shoulder point of the opposite on the call.

And the scrums were neat and effective. They also looked closer together.

When they started to collapse on the hit, he went through the process again and surprise, surprise the scrums were competitive and stable after the hit.

Maybe, just maybe, ensuring the props are close enough maybe the answer. Instead of seeing them touch the opp's arm, head or an invisible third appendage, just get them to touch the shoulder point.

Thoughts?

 

[Brumby Jack]

Fair go, he was probably only doing what Paddy wanted...

But seriously, the refs this weekend seemed to be shouting the scrum engagement calls.

 

[Scotty]

Agree. Although it is going to be a painful period to get to the point where all teams are doing the same thing, it is probably worth it. Needs to be an IRB edict to ensure it happens consistently though.

He wasn't just pedantic at scrum time though, and did turn an already slow game into a standstill.

Another area I would have liked him to crack down on was the tactic the Force were using to slow the game down. Even though they added a 20minute mark rest period, we still saw Force forwards go down with 'injuries' every 6-7 minutes. I would expect that at least 6-7 injury stoppages in the first 60 minutes were not genuine. And that is from the Force alone.

 

[Scotty]

Fair go, he was probably only doing what Paddy wanted...

But seriously, the refs this weekend seemed to be shouting the scrum engagement calls.

As they should. Gives the players no excuse.

 

[barbarian]

I was really impressed with all of the refs at scrum time this week. Clearly SANZAR has got its shit together and all the refs are on the same page. They moved away from the nonsense of the spring tour's random interval calls (crouch...touch...........pause..engage, then crouch........touch..pause........engage etc), and had clear, slow and regular calls. Add to that an emphasis on not fucking around (eg. Kaplan on the Chiefs) and we had a great round of clean, competitive scrums.

Hats off to the refs this week, thought they were all very good.

 

[vidiot]

Ian Smith was the pedantic ref at scrum time for the Reds v Force game yesterday and he insisted that every prop be able to and touch the shoulder point of the opposite on the call.....

Yeah, I wondered why there was less hit and more engagement from the 1st few scrums.

The Reds in particular seemed to have less velocity at engage early on and I wonder if it was because he sorted out Slipper and by extension the Reds 1st, then did so with the Force.

The scrums pretty much stayed up even on a surface that wasn't perfect. I like the end result, but I'm not sure that we're going to have consistency. Be interesting to know what the protaganists - esp the front row protaganists - thought.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

I liked it - getting the front rows closer reduces the impact of The Hit, but makes scrums more stable. in the end it becomes a fairer contest with fewer resets.

I also noticed one ref (think it was kraplan) call it crouch touch pause EN-gage, with heavy emphasis on the first syllable as the instruction for the front row to move - is this an IRB/Sanzar directive, or just a good idea?

 

[Ham]

I was really impressed with all of the refs at scrum time this week. Clearly SANZAR has got its shit together and all the refs are on the same page. They moved away from the nonsense of the spring tour's random interval calls (crouch...touch...........pause..engage, then crouch........touch..pause........engage etc), and had clear, slow and regular calls. Add to that an emphasis on not fucking around (eg. Kaplan on the Chiefs) and we had a great round of clean, competitive scrums.

Hats off to the refs this week, thought they were all very good.

It was great to see the random intervals of calling the scrum that happened in the spring tour haven't returned, but I still think the calls are too slow. There doesn't need to be such a long pause between every step, especially before and after 'pause'.

 

[MrTimms]

There doesn't need to be such a long pause between every step, especially before and after 'pause'.

If they are going to insist on calling the pause, then there needs to be the same pause before and after that call as every other one. The whole point is the timing needs to be and stay the same. Then the teams will practice to that timing, both teams will know it and the co-ordination will make the contest a... well contest again.

 

[I like to watch]

Why don't they just take the hit out of the equation?
I thought there was supposed to be no pushing until the ball was in.
I know nothing about what goes on in these scrums, but it bores the shit out of me with all the restarts.
It seems to me that the scrum has morphed into something that no one ever intended it to be.
Why can't we take it back a peg or 2 & ensure that once the scrum packs we get a result out of it the first time without endless restarts or redoes?

 

[MrTimms]

Why don't they just take the hit out of the equation?
I thought there was supposed to be no pushing until the ball was in.
I know nothing about what goes on in these scrums, but it bores the shit out of me with all the restarts.
It seems to me that the scrum has morphed into something that no one ever intended it to be.
Why can't we take it back a peg or 2 & ensure that once the scrum packs we get a result out of it the first time without endless restarts or redoes?

Why don't we just lose the flankers too.
Why don't we just make it like a restart with no contesting at all, like a big hug for the forwards with the ball thrown through the locks (we can call the No. 8 that now, since they are the only part of the backrow left) feet.

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with the hit. The problem is with all the changes in the name of safety and an intent from officials to catch people out rather than encourage the contest. if the calls are made to a set sequence/cadence and the distances between the front rows kept uniform, everyone will know what is going on and they will work.

As for pushing before the ball goes in, there needs to be some pressure applied to keep the scrum up, this is different from a drive.

 

[RugbyFuture]

...and the fact the have to go soft on scrums in grassroots, so no one ever learns to deal with these problems as a junior...

 

[rugbysmartarse]

That said Mr Timms, the hit is a recent addition. Go back to 80s and they props bound first, then the second row joined and the back row, once all were in the half fed the ball (in the middle) fewer resets, fewer injuries (but I do like a good hit)

 

[MrTimms]

For sure, it has evolved, but so has everything.

I was teetering on the edge of the Ban the hit camp for a while there, but when researching my article on it, I had a great chat with Andrew Blades. Speaking to someone who has been there and done it, changed my mind. The hit works, the policing of it is the problem.

 

[Groucho]

Why don't we just lose the flankers too.
Why don't we just make it like a restart with no contesting at all, like a big hug for the forwards with the ball thrown through the locks (we can call the No. 8 that now, since they are the only part of the backrow left) feet.

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with the hit. The problem is with all the changes in the name of safety and an intent from officials to catch people out rather than encourage the contest. if the calls are made to a set sequence/cadence and the distances between the front rows kept uniform, everyone will know what is going on and they will work.

As for pushing before the ball goes in, there needs to be some pressure applied to keep the scrum up, this is different from a drive.

The hit is a recent innovation. I don't think it can be associated with the lack of flankers or the reduction of a contest. There were many good contests in the many decades of rugby before the hit was added.

Edit: just read smartarses's post.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

A few points to note re scrum engagements & resets.

The number of resets were down in 2010 Super rugby - most believe due to an improved engagement process.
In 2010, generally those with the slower cadence got the best results.

In 2011, the edict is 4 call, 4 actions meaning that referees must insist that the 4 calls are adhered to (including a proper touch as the Force found out). They are also looking to make their next call once the previous one has been completed and there is stability. While it may appear that there is more consistency of timing of the referee calls, it is actually consistency of the 2 packs being ready to move to the next action. It appeared to work well in Round 1.

 

[Ruggo]

Scrum managment was good from Ian Smith but other barts of his game were crap. Reds throw the ball into the lineout, pull the ball down cleanly but Smith stops the game and has a word with Sharpe about him bridging the gap. Reds re throw the ball. Mate WTF, either award the free kick or let the game go.

Ian Smith calls to McCalman "get off his head blue" in reference to McCalman swinging off the neck of Horwill. This is taken as an invite for Hodgson to join him in swinging off Horwill's neck. The ref obviously spotted the infringment but did not award the penalty.

How about a weekly ref watch for the front page?

 

[Gnostic]

While the scrums may have stayed up more why were the scrums under pressure feeding the ball into the second row? Have a look at some of the Reds scrums in the second half and Genia put the ball in and Finger doesn't even strike, it just magically transitions through to the second row.

The best scrums of the weekend including the SA conference were the Saders V Blues. Few collapses and genuine contest, which IMO the Saders shaded the Blues.

 

[ChargerWA]

I don't mind the hit, but if scrums keep collapsing, the ref can't get it sorted and it is detracting from the game they should peel off the flankers and make them scrum with 6. Not ideal as it would close up the gaps in the backline, but it would at least be the fairest way of keeping the game moving, anything has got to be better then lotto penalties they resort to these days.

 

[DPK]

I don't mind the hit, but if scrums keep collapsing, the ref can't get it sorted and it is detracting from the game they should peel off the flankers and make them scrum with 6. Not ideal as it would close up the gaps in the backline, but it would at least be the fairest way of keeping the game moving, anything has got to be better then lotto penalties they resort to these days.

Umm... what? How are the flankers collapsing the scrum?