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Super Rugby Expansion in Australia. Success or failure?

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en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
ED: GUYS JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I'VE CREATED A NEW THREAD FOR THIS! SO EN_FORCE_ER'S ARGUMENT STARTS OUT OF NO WHERE, BUT YOU GUYS SHOULD GET THE PICTURE!

I would personally prefer him to stay West, for the sake of RugbyWA, they need him more then QLD does.

Perth, whilst a very attractive city, probably doesn't have the appeal to a young man like Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney have. Canberra's proximity to Sydney and Brisbane is also advantageousness.

I think unless they can nab players young (like they did to O'Connor and Pocock) or have journeymen surprisingly come good (Hodgson) they won't get many superstars down there. This is of course taking $$$ out of the equation.

There will always be room for a Sharpie style exception or two though.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Perth, whilst a very attractive city, probably doesn't have the appeal to a young man like Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney have. Canberra's proximity to Sydney and Brisbane is also advantageousness. I think unless they can nab players young (like they did to O'Connor and Pocock) or have journeymen surprisingly come good (Hodgson) they won't get many superstars down there. This is of course taking $$$ out of the equation. There will always be room for a Sharpie style exception or two though.

All relevant points enforcer, but the hard facts are that, niche fan-love notwithstanding, the Force is a failure, a flop, at a business, code-building, and playing success level. Yes, it has absorbed some excellent imported players, but it has not evolved beyond that. And appointing Graham as coach, via a singularly uninspiring period under Deans yet with ARU advocacy, was a crippling mistake (JOC (James O'Connor) at FB vs Tahs, what can one say), a world-class, seasoned coach and related support staff should have been appointed to have any chance of de-marginalising the whole mediocre operation that is doing very little for Aus rugby. The Rebels model of a far greater number of non-Aus imports and more aggressive private equity engagement may have proved more successful, but that opportunity has likely passed. It is no wonder that young stars will be propelled to a departure point - who of real quality is continuously motivated to stay forever in a team culture and talent pool that never gets anywhere? Look at the recycling of Giteau and Mitchell back to the East.

Similarly, the ARU has stood by (as it did for 5 years with the QRU, as the crisis of Board and managerial incompetence built there) and let the ACTRU rot away to marginality and a deadening version of 'player power' that is little other than a way of describing a weak Board with poor management, and even worse strategic judgement re how to build a successful local rugby enterprise. Over time, why would the best players want to join or stay in such a declining RU? Worse is now (unsurprisingly) occurring with last weekend's lowest ever home crowd (quoting Gagger).

The Rebels model is, thus far, so much more compelling: world class coach with good assistants, super-successful Chairman, lots of marketing and business and investment expertise, a powerful, large city with a passionate yet discriminating sports demography, etc.

There is in fact very little that, strategically, the ARU has got right since 1999. And it's gotten a lot wrong. Let's aspire that the Rebels gives us all some basis for rational hope, and a desperately needed injection of competence and success into the code in this once-great rugby land.
 
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TOCC

Guest
^^ wow interesting...

Firstly, you cant blame the ARU for the QRU's failings, legally speaking they could not intervene until they were asked to by the QRU board. Similar situation now with the ACT board.

Secondly, its far far far to early to be lauding the Rebels a success, they are still in there honeymoon period, after the first season the Western Force looked like the best thing since sliced bread with there large membership base, high crowds and solid financial base. In addition to that they were attracting the likes of Giteau and Mitchell West.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
You seem to know a lot more then me RedsHappy so I won't argue.

However I'd say on a code building level the Force have been a huge success and there are some good players coming out of WA that weren't in the past.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
^^ wow interesting... Firstly, you cant blame the ARU for the QRU's failings, legally speaking they could not intervene until they were asked to by the QRU board. Similar situation now with the ACT board. Secondly, its far far far to early to be lauding the Rebels a success, they are still in there honeymoon period, after the first season the Western Force looked like the best thing since sliced bread with there large membership base, high crowds and solid financial base. In addition to that they were attracting the likes of Giteau and Mitchell West.

Sorry, but I absolutely do blame the ARU for the (ultimate state of) the QRU's serious, damn near catastrophic, failings to mid-2009. The ARU has core governance over the code's welfare in our country - just read their Annual Reports if you don't agree. The ARU opens new States (a la Rebels) and guides the entire structure of the S15, just for some examples. The idea that somehow it is a feasible form of rugby reality that we could have a glisteningly healthy ARU and, say, badly deteriorating NSWRU and QRUs, hardly works in truth, does it? The ARU absolutely can intervene in State RUs' situations if it needs to; funding arrangements for players is just one place. Blind Freddy could see the scary decline in the QRU's playing and financial situation over many years, and the way such could threaten the very core of code health in Australia. How can Aus rugby be strategically healthy if one of the two great foundation rugby states are in increasing difficulty, crowds decreasing, finances declining, Reds becoming a laughing stock, etc? The core of the AFL would never let large %-wise tracts of its code deteriorate like that and just sit on their hands and consult a lawyers' bible of local franchises' rights while Rome burned to the ground. No one on GAGR ever seems to desire proper strategic and measurable KPI accountability of these very well paid professional managers who run the code here; we kind just hang our heads and get mushily philosophical that, well, maybe, gee, it's just the players here, either they aren't good enough and/or there's not enough of the good ones. Not like NZ. For me, that's rubbish, sorry.

Going forward, the QRU's late 2009 clean-out-thru-severe-crisis was/is manifestly the best thing that has happened to Aus rugby in recent times, and this is what is similarly required in the ACT, WA, and IMO, on a smaller scale in the NSWRU (in the latter case to purge all the wretched factions and old corridor poisons that still seem in part to prevent the Tahs achieving the greatness they actually deserve). That QRU clean out brought us top-flight coaching (and a kind of matured, liberated Link), totally fresh thinking, and, at last, a competent, professional Board not driven by introverted fat-cat, old-boy rugga-business networking and a disastrous 'mates and friends' approach to management and strategy. And, voila, under 2 years later, we have 14,000+ members, and a win at Newlands vs the S15 cream, and the $ income is trending way up. Most of all: we can be proud once more, because we're winning with flair when suited, and guile when suited.

Turning to the Rebels, I did not 'laud the Rebels a success'. I did say that I liked (and had more hope for) the totality of the Rebels business and local team 'architecture', and the siting of it in Melbourne, more than i liked/like that of the Force, 2011 version. (And btw, IMO, Macqueen's a far better coach by proof than Mitchell ever was.)
 
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TOCC

Guest
Redshappy, I could go on for hours at corporate law and the legal rights of the various organisations, but i feel it wouldn't achieve much as you will still blame the ARU for the QRU failings and 99% of this forum have moved on from what happend in the past, so im going to leave the subject and get back to the topic of the Reds in 2012.



Foxsports are indicating that the Reds are going to re-sign Daley, Horwill and Ioane in the coming day.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Redshappy, I could go on for hours at corporate law and the legal rights of the various organisations, but i feel it wouldn't achieve much as you will still blame the ARU for the QRU failings and 99% of this forum have moved on from what happend in the past, so im going to leave the subject and get back to the topic of the Reds in 2012.



Foxsports are indicating that the Reds are going to re-sign Daley, Horwill and Ioane in the coming day.

The problem with that TOCC is that without looking at the past and identifying what has gone worng there through critical examination and analysis there is a very real danaer of doing the same things again even if we have a thorough clean out like QRU got. Don't forget the NSWRU got a similar period of intervention by the ARU, and significantly was forced to have direct ARU intervention at board level to secure their bail out. Fast forward 5 or so years and the Tahs are again in financial trouble with another loss looming. Lessons learned? Nil. Playing results - about the same. Retention of players - about the same.

The ARU learnt from their intervention at NSWRU and didn't make the same mistakes at QRU, ensuring a much more thorough clean-out.

However what RH is saying is that a good Corporate governance structure (the ARU is the Corporate Body and the State Unions the outlets) they would have identified and intervened before the almost total collapse of both Unions. There is a factor of neglect from head office in this area IMO.
 

Finsbury Girl

Trevor Allan (34)
The pyramid is inverted that's for sure. But at least the QRU board is in a better position now than it was to fulfill it's mission to nuture the game in Qld.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The pyramid is inverted that's for sure. But at least the QRU board is in a better position now than it was to fulfill it's mission to nuture the game in Qld.

Exactly and results are showing on the field as well. Contrast with the NSWRU which after the period of ARU administration went back to business as usual, so should we be surprised that it is business as usual on the field?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
All relevant points enforcer, but the hard facts are that, niche fan-love notwithstanding, the Force is a failure, a flop, at a business, code-building, and playing success level. Yes, it has absorbed some excellent imported players, but it has not evolved beyond that. And appointing Graham as coach, via a singularly uninspiring period under Deans yet with ARU advocacy, was a crippling mistake (JOC (James O'Connor) at FB vs Tahs, what can one say), a world-class, seasoned coach and related support staff should have been appointed to have any chance of de-marginalising the whole mediocre operation that is doing very little for Aus rugby. The Rebels model of a far greater number of non-Aus imports and more aggressive private equity engagement may have proved more successful, but that opportunity has likely passed. It is no wonder that young stars will be propelled to a departure point - who of real quality is continuously motivated to stay forever in a team culture and talent pool that never gets anywhere? Look at the recycling of Giteau and Mitchell back to the East.

I don't normally have a go when seeing a post like this, but bugger it, I will make an exception here.

I'm sick of people constantly having a crack at the game and the team over here in the West. You clearly have little knowledge of the game and its challenges over here. Unlike QLD, we don't have the player base and tradition of rugby union that would make a team like the Force an instant success. There have been some challenges, but I'll tell you this for nothing: thousands of people have been coming to Force games every bloody weekend and cheer hard for their team. And they've kept coming every week since I became a member in 2007. I look out at that crowd every week and I see commercial and cultural success. People here love their team, regardless of the result. There are very few exmpty seats. Furthermore, there is a growing base of quality players coming out of the West and that will continue with the right amount of encouragement. JOC (James O'Connor), Hodgson, Pocock and McCalman may have not played test footy before now were it for the existence of the Force. I know they're not home grown, but give it time. Local guys need something to aspire to.

I think it's a bit fucking rich reading criticism of Rugby WA from a supporter of what was the most dysfunctional union in Australia for several years. Year after year, we saw nothing but failure from the Reds, on the paddock, in the boardroom and nearly every aspect of the game. They gave the impression of not being able to organise a root in a brothel. Now good on them for turning things around in all of those areas and I'm enjoying their success now. But just remember where you lot fucking came from before pouring scorn on anyone else.

Rant over. Sorry about that Reds fans.
 
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TOCC

Guest
The problem with that TOCC is that without looking at the past and identifying what has gone worng there through critical examination and analysis there is a very real danaer of doing the same things again even if we have a thorough clean out like QRU got. Don't forget the NSWRU got a similar period of intervention by the ARU, and significantly was forced to have direct ARU intervention at board level to secure their bail out. Fast forward 5 or so years and the Tahs are again in financial trouble with another loss looming. Lessons learned? Nil. Playing results - about the same. Retention of players - about the same.

The ARU learnt from their intervention at NSWRU and didn't make the same mistakes at QRU, ensuring a much more thorough clean-out.

However what RH is saying is that a good Corporate governance structure (the ARU is the Corporate Body and the State Unions the outlets) they would have identified and intervened before the almost total collapse of both Unions. There is a factor of neglect from head office in this area IMO.

Not exactly, the ARU is a governing body and the unions are members, the membership is entirely voluntary which gives them access to entitlements(ie grants, IRB recognition etc) from the governing body. The Governing Body is still not legally empowered to directly involve themselves in decisions at the members level, until such a point in which the board votes for this to happen, even then the ARU could say no.

The ARU didn't force the QRU clean-out, the QRU itself performed the clean-out through mass resignations and sackings, at which point the newly appointed board realising there futile situation invited the ARU to guarantee there financial health to avoid bankruptcy.

Like i said, we can talk about the legal implications of corporate governance all day long, but the main point is that the ARU was at no point in a position to legally intervene in QRU affairs until invited to do so. Im not disputing the necessity of the 'intervention' or the benefits which came out of it, but blaming the ARU is taking the easy option, the QRU was more then guilty of plotting its own downfall.
 
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tranquility

Guest
I think it's a bit fucking rich reading criticism of Rugby WA from a supporter of what was the most dysfunctional union in Australia for several years. Year after year, we saw nothing but failure from the Reds, on the paddock, in the boardroom and nearly every aspect of the game. They gave the impression of not being able to organise a root in a brothel. Now good on them for turning things around in all of those areas and I'm enjoying their success now. But just remember where you lot fucking came from before pouring scorn on anyone else.

I don't like this at all.
 

James Buchanan

Trevor Allan (34)
I don't like this at all.

I think its a pretty fair cop. He's identified what he is referring to prior to the bolded comment. He's been fairly conciliatory and is responding to some pretty heavy handed criticism of not only his team but the entire organisation and fanbase associated with it. I don't think its unreasonable at all for a passionate fan to be fired up to such an extent.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
I don't normally have a go when seeing a post like this, but bugger it, I will make an exception here.

I'm sick of people constantly having a crack at the game and the team over here in the West. You clearly have little knowledge of the game and its challenges over here. Unlike QLD, we don't have the player base and tradition of rugby union that would make a team like the Force an instant success. There have been some challenges, but I'll tell you this for nothing: thousands of people have been coming to Force games every bloody weekend and cheer hard for their team. And they've kept coming every week since I became a member in 2007. I look out at that crowd every week and I see commercial and cultural success. People here love their team, regardless of the result. There are very few exmpty seats. Furthermore, there is a growing base of quality players coming out of the West and that will continue with the right amount of encouragement. JOC (James O'Connor), Hodgson, Pocock and McCalman may have not played test footy before now were it for the existence of the Force. I know they're not home grown, but give it time. Local guys need something to aspire to.

I think it's a bit fucking rich reading criticism of Rugby WA from a supporter of what was the most dysfunctional union in Australia for several years. Year after year, we saw nothing but failure from the Reds, on the paddock, in the boardroom and nearly every aspect of the game. They gave the impression of not being able to organise a root in a brothel. Now good on them for turning things around in all of those areas and I'm enjoying their success now. But just remember where you lot fucking came from before pouring scorn on anyone else.

Rant over. Sorry about that Reds fans.

I don't disagree with what you say but one thing QLD rugby does well is require those who sign with it, play there club rugby in its system. The Force need to look at somthing like that to build rugby in WA. It is time for the Force to start producing some local product.
 
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TheTruth

Guest
I don't disagree with what you say but one thing QLD rugby does well is require those who sign with it, play there club rugby in its system. The Force need to look at somthing like that to build rugby in WA. It is time for the Force to start producing some local product.

There is absolutely NO POINT in having teams in far away places that will never produce players. Have no problem if a new team takes time to establish but shit if they are all imports - would rather see a franchise go to a grassroots area like northern NSW/Gold Coast
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I don't disagree with what you say but one thing QLD rugby does well is require those who sign with it, play there club rugby in its system. The Force need to look at somthing like that to build rugby in WA. It is time for the Force to start producing some local product.

That is well recognised and steps are being taken. You guys have to remember that up until five years ago if you were from WA and wanted to play top level rugby it invariably meant going to Sydney. There's a bloke playing for the Reds right now who if he started playing Super rugby now, he'd be in the Force squad: Adam Wallace-Harrison. He went to Wesley College here in Perth. There are and will be others like him, but at least now they'll get a chance to play for their local franchise. The loss of the Force academy is a blow, however.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
There is absolutely NO POINT in having teams in far away places that will never produce players. Have no problem if a new team takes time to establish but shit if they are all imports - would rather see a franchise go to a grassroots area like northern NSW/Gold Coast

And my argument is that local players *are* starting to come through. If the ARU is serious about growing the game, it has to be outside of NSW and QLD.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
That is well recognised and steps are being taken. You guys have to remember that up until five years ago if you were from WA and wanted to play top level rugby it invariably meant going to Sydney. There's a bloke playing for the Reds right now who if he started playing Super rugby now, he'd be in the Force squad: Adam Wallace-Harrison. He went to Wesley College here in Perth. There are and will be others like him, but at least now they'll get a chance to play for their local franchise. The loss of the Force academy is a blow, however.

Am I the boy who kicked the hornet's nest (can I borrow and bend that book title?)...TBH, as you know there's a lot more to assessing the viability of a franchise than its capacity, five years later, to export a handful of players to other States. (BTW, nowhere in my argument did I attack WA players, or doubt the integrity or passion of the Force's fans, or any of these conveniently emotive red herrings which detract from a robust critique of the Force as a total sporting entity.)

My point is this, essentially: an amateur club can absolutely afford not to worry about winning too much, it has low overheads, its culture can rightly be one of good spirit and love of playing and the Saturday arvo banter over a cold one and the sizzle, etc. Ultimately however, a professional State franchise in a niche sport has to achieve three things, at some point simultaneously: it has to be financially viable and self-sustaining, it has to have a group of leading players that inspire good crowds and entertain in the best modes of the game, and, crucially, it has win something important, like an S15 title, or reasonably regularly get into say the S15 Finals or SFs. Irreplaceably, winning creates a virtuous circle that sustains and protects the first two variables, and then further uplifts the franchise to potentially higher planes still.

We can all have our fan-love and defend our emotional sporting loyalties, I respect that, but harder realities inevitably lie in wait when you have the very high $ overheads to pay as is the case in a modern State-based sporting franchise.

If a State franchise, after say 5+ years of existence (or much more like the Brumbies), cannot break out into pattern of serious winning at an elite level, I predict that two things will surely happen, sooner or later: one, it will find it harder and harder to both attract outstanding new players and hold outstanding old ones, and a vicious circle effect derived from that core fact will thus commence, and, two, the income base of that franchise will slowly but surely begin to decline, or become fragile, leading to other derived vicious circles that relate back to every point of viability, from promotional funding to adequate $s to obtain a critical mass of top players, and, just as importantly, top coaches who can demand top $s. The recent history of the Reds is an excellent example of this process in the negative, and then the very opposite in the positive upon rediscovering (and then practising) the 3 golden rules of State viability.

Returning to my core point: I see no evidence whatsoever that the Force is even close to breaking out of general play day mediocrity to anything like the degree needed to comply with the 3 golden rules. I see no serious changes being made at the Force that rationally support any credible notion that such a break out is on the cusp of evolving, either at all, or quickly enough. I see eloquent excuses and good media management, and a few stars that to me seem lost in a poorly coached and managed galaxy. But I don't see, at this time, even a glimmer of the right changes in the making.

So, thus, I consider the Force (in its totality and as a business and sports entity, NOT the Force fans, or good committed players, etc), and the Brumbies (ditto) as largely failed rugby enterprises. I consider the annual sustained, material $ losses that the NSWRU are now year on year slipping into as highly dangerous for NSW rugby, and I consider the radical and (to this point) successful total clean-out executed by the ARU and QRU at the latter, as a powerful model as to what is required to deal with the fact that there is demonstrably too much mediocrity in the Aus S15 system at an overall, systemic level.
 
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