Subbies 2023!

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Really like it.

Step 1. Something that is done in a lot of organisations annually to gauge the environment. Only effective if it's valued by the creator as you elude to in Step 2.

People involved and playing Subbies in general really love their Rugby and Club. Can't always say the same about Prem Rugby where at the top it is a means to get into Professional programs. People get the shits here but I think they do genuinely want to see the game improve and not just their little kingdom.

(I'm not fully across the St Pats issue. cbf reading it all but,) All Clubs should be aware of what they are being marked and critiqued. Imagine is St Pats were able to answer or remedy the issues if they were aware.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Really like it.

Step 1. Something that is done in a lot of organisations annually to gauge the environment. Only effective if it's valued by the creator as you elude to in Step 2.

People involved and playing Subbies in general really love their Rugby and Club. Can't always say the same about Prem Rugby where at the top it is a means to get into Professional programs. People get the shits here but I think they do genuinely want to see the game improve and not just their little kingdom.

(I'm not fully across the St Pats issue. cbf reading it all but,) All Clubs should be aware of what they are being marked and critiqued. Imagine is St Pats were able to answer or remedy the issues if they were aware.

1. Absolutely Agree mate! Personally, I think this should be a sub committee or a group run outside of the board so that clubs feel like there is a mediator.. Not that I don't think Subbies will be able to put together the effort, if they like the idea theyll be able to execute. But its also whether the clubs are willing to participate without an agenda or influence from previous poor decisions (eg. Epping, St Pats etc.)

2. Agreed again. However, where I have seen these works is hearing what every "kingdom" feels individually and then getting a holistic view of everyones thoughts before making decisions on where to next.

This all comes down to people willing to do the work to listen and play it back to the clubs on everyones opinions. Even with this suggestion, someone is going to be pissed off. However, explaining thoroughly why there is an issue with what a club desires is a good start to getting them to be more understanding.

Again - not saying there is a problem with the board as a whole. There are some absolute LEGENDS on the board currently.. But my criticism is the way it communicates and also the inability to act like a MEMBER organisation, leaving some members pissed off and also in the dark about key decisions that impact them greatly.

 

[HogansHeros]

IMO its time to stop "assuming" we have the answers.


Unfortunately, it seems that the board or at least some people that have authority are making decisions with the common opinion that the clubs do not no best. They are of the opinion that they know best which, in previous times, is probably right. But we are entering an unprecedented time for rugby and the best approach is going to be to work things out transparently and cooperatively together.

What the fuck does that mean?

Step 1 - send out a survey for at least 2/3 people per club to complete. This means you get a true understanding of what they club feels and believes is the right way forward. Include in that survey; How is your club going? What do you need from us to improve? What is your opinion on club support and education? How can we help you GROW RUGBY in your area (social events, coaching, participation, fun and games whatever)

Step 2 - Digest and READ EVERY SINGLE RESPONSE! Get it together and play back to the clubs what they have said with some action plans on how to move forward

Step 3 - Get everyone together to discuss how this will be able to move forward.

Acknowledge that not everybody is going to agree (that is the same in every sport). But everyone collectively is likely to sacrifice and work within a unfavourable structure if they are given the reasoning and appropriate tools to overcome any of the challenges.

Yes, subbies is financially stable. Yes, subbies still has a higher number of clubs than other competition. But it is clear that we are in a post-covid subbies world where things need to be rethought and this can only happen fairly if every club contributes to improving the game as a whole..

Rant Over

The board does talk to clubs during the organising of divisions. Not really sure what you want to come of this survey idea?

For example how is the subbies board meant to help you grow rugby in your area? Legitimate question. Not sure it is their responsibility. They are just volunteers trying to run a rugby competition.

However im all for more transperancy, can only be a good thing at this stage.

 

[21mm]

If you think Lindfield were strong this year, wait until you see what we will do in Division 2. There is a monster gap between the two divisions.

The Kentwell Cup 2023 was the most even competition since 2012. While 1st grade did not get a lot of wins, we had five bonus point losses for being within seven points. In the last two weeks of the competition there was narrow losses to Drummoyne and Hunters Hill. Does anyone actually believe that any club in Division 2 could hold their own in any way against the likes of Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Colleagues or Waverley? If you are wondering, the answer is no, and that includes UNSW.

I watched the colts grand final in Division 2 and if that was the best in the division, then heaven help the sides who came 3rd-8th who have to play us and even the other Division 1 club who have moved down.

I say this with no arrogance, but we won't be dropping many points in the first two grades or colts.

Well then, the bar has been set.

St Pats to win 4 x premierships, 2 of which are undefeated, have all grades make Grand finals and win the Cowboy cup. Anything less will be unacceptable.

 

[21mm]

Again - not saying there is a problem with the board as a whole. There are some absolute LEGENDS on the board currently.. But my criticism is the way it communicates and also the inability to act like a MEMBER organisation, leaving some members pissed off and also in the dark about key decisions that impact them greatly.

100%
To use some Boardroom Speak, the 'optics' of this is super shithouse.

St Pats are a great Subbies club, whom are making strides in areas not many other are even trying to do, IE Womens game and also Special needs teams.

'Optics' suggests that they have looked at the Kentwell table, and made a ruling from there, which is not the only measure of performance of a club, (albeit a large proportion)

 

[Eastcoast]

This is a debacle. Ive never been the biggest fan of St Pats only due to the banter/advice given to me at Hudson. Very strong club, Great Culture and a great Div 1 club..
This is a massive loss for Div 1 and Kentwell. Hopefully subbies review and change their mind.

In my opinion, Div 1 will be better with 10 teams.

Div 2 will still be strong and the Divisions below will also survive. Cant make an 8x8x8 competition, when there are only 18 clubs suitable.

18 clubs - 10- 8. Simple maths really.

Feel sorry for Div 2 1st grade clubs who were getting done by 40 by Lindfield. It will be 60+ by St Pats.

 

[DaSchmooze]

This is a debacle. Ive never been the biggest fan of St Pats only due to the banter/advice given to me at Hudson. Very strong club, Great Culture and a great Div 1 club..
This is a massive loss for Div 1 and Kentwell. Hopefully subbies review and change their mind.

In my opinion, Div 1 will be better with 10 teams.

Div 2 will still be strong and the Divisions below will also survive. Cant make an 8x8x8 competition, when there are only 18 clubs suitable.

18 clubs - 10- 8. Simple maths really.

Feel sorry for Div 2 1st grade clubs who were getting done by 40 by Lindfield. It will be 60+ by St Pats.

You know you've made a horrible mistake if it compels Eastcoast to come out in support of St Pats!!

Seriously though, if results on the table isnt the metric (finishing 6th on CC table) and ability to meet the requirements of the grade (5 opens and 2 colts) and ensuring responsibilities are met (no forfeits) as well as extras such as the Women's 7s program, THEN WHAT THE HELL IS? What is the criteria and why aren't any clubs aware as to what they are?

Someone needs to be called to account here as this is a stitch up. An arbitrary decision, concluded with criteria that nobody knows of, with no formal notification nor justification. "We're dropping you to 2nd division becuase that's what we're doing". That's it.

It's an utter nonsense and a shameful act.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

Im assuming Petersham will be relegated too?

 

[TheBigArvo]

IMO its time to stop "assuming" we have the answers.


Unfortunately, it seems that the board or at least some people that have authority are making decisions with the common opinion that the clubs do not no best. They are of the opinion that they know best which, in previous times, is probably right. But we are entering an unprecedented time for rugby and the best approach is going to be to work things out transparently and cooperatively together.

What the fuck does that mean?

Step 1 - send out a survey for at least 2/3 people per club to complete. This means you get a true understanding of what they club feels and believes is the right way forward. Include in that survey; How is your club going? What do you need from us to improve? What is your opinion on club support and education? How can we help you GROW RUGBY in your area (social events, coaching, participation, fun and games whatever)

Step 2 - Digest and READ EVERY SINGLE RESPONSE! Get it together and play back to the clubs what they have said with some action plans on how to move forward

Step 3 - Get everyone together to discuss how this will be able to move forward.

Acknowledge that not everybody is going to agree (that is the same in every sport). But everyone collectively is likely to sacrifice and work within a unfavourable structure if they are given the reasoning and appropriate tools to overcome any of the challenges.

Yes, subbies is financially stable. Yes, subbies still has a higher number of clubs than other competition. But it is clear that we are in a post-covid subbies world where things need to be rethought and this can only happen fairly if every club contributes to improving the game as a whole..

Rant Over

Fully agree about discussing with clubs etc but when they did this in 2022 a number of clubs lied about there numbers until the night before the season started. Western Raptors barely had enough to field 1 team.

With all of this there needs to be a clear metric as to what the criteria is for promotion/relegation. We change the goal posts each year then clubs need to know this what they are being assessed on. As mentioned the “optics” of this are shocking as St Pats have been competing strongly in Div 1.

 

[Heavyd]

Well then, the bar has been set.

St Pats to win 4 x premierships, 2 of which are undefeated, have all grades make Grand finals and win the Cowboy cup. Anything less will be unacceptable.

Firstly agree St Pats totally shafted by subbies.

St Pats 2023
1st grade: 9th
2nd grade: 5th
Colts 1st: but didn't make the GF
3rds: 9th
4th: 8th

On behalf of 2nd Division: Challenge accepted, we welcome the increased competition which will make us all lift our game.

 

[LongTimeListener]

The board does talk to clubs during the organising of divisions. Not really sure what you want to come of this survey idea?

For example how is the subbies board meant to help you grow rugby in your area? Legitimate question. Not sure it is their responsibility. They are just volunteers trying to run a rugby competition.

However im all for more transperancy, can only be a good thing at this stage.

Really? It is a constant discussion point that clubs have decisions made for them and don't get the full picture as to why these decisions are made.

Few ideas;
- Introduction of womens teams?
- Work with fixtures incl. kick off times to coordinate with time slots to attract supporters for a night game, joint fixture with premier club, school game? Coordinate with Sydney Rugby to host join junior/senior fixtures.?
- A kitty that can be accessed for clubs looking to host promotional events (within reason). Could be granted on an annual basis to clubs with a plan.
- 7s,10s,pre season, trial days, gala days
- Cup style knockouts that could include country clubs, hunter region, CC etc.
- Lobby for tickets to Super Rugby or Wallabies games (we know they aren't sold out)
- Rep fixtures
- Build hype around derby days and help support the advertising of these through appropriate channels
- Media Content (they tried on Stan before) but could use Cluch for interviews, blogs, TOTW etc.
- Formalising the post match functions

Maybe not all good but hey.. Worth a crack at this point.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Fully agree about discussing with clubs etc but when they did this in 2022 a number of clubs lied about there numbers until the night before the season started. Western Raptors barely had enough to field 1 team.

With all of this there needs to be a clear metric as to what the criteria is for promotion/relegation. We change the goal posts each year then clubs need to know this what they are being assessed on. As mentioned the “optics” of this are shocking as St Pats have been competing strongly in Div 1.

Agree this is a problem. Timing is hard here as clubs don't really know what numbers they will have until 2 weeks before round 1. But setting the expectation earlier may have helped give them time to recruit?

 

[HogansHeros]

Really? It is a constant discussion point that clubs have decisions made for them and don't get the full picture as to why these decisions are made.

Few ideas;
- Introduction of womens teams?
- Work with fixtures incl. kick off times to coordinate with time slots to attract supporters for a night game, joint fixture with premier club, school game? Coordinate with Sydney Rugby to host join junior/senior fixtures.?
- A kitty that can be accessed for clubs looking to host promotional events (within reason). Could be granted on an annual basis to clubs with a plan.
- 7s,10s,pre season, trial days, gala days
- Cup style knockouts that could include country clubs, hunter region, CC etc.
- Lobby for tickets to Super Rugby or Wallabies games (we know they aren't sold out)
- Rep fixtures
- Build hype around derby days and help support the advertising of these through appropriate channels
- Media Content (they tried on Stan before) but could use Cluch for interviews, blogs, TOTW etc.
- Formalising the post match functions

Maybe not all good but hey.. Worth a crack at this point.

To your first point. Yes 100% agree more transperancy is needed around why decisions are made. To say the board doesnt communicate with clubs at all is just wrong. There are discussions had.

A kitty? Where is this money coming from? Are we increasing regos for everyone to pay for clubs with enough volunteers to put on functions?

All for more comps, I for one would love to see a weekly 7s comp run over the off season. However all these things can only happen with more volunteers, thats outside the boards control?
There used to be wednesday night U85kg comp that was good, but like everything, someone needs to put up their hand to run it...

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Really? It is a constant discussion point that clubs have decisions made for them and don't get the full picture as to why these decisions are made.

Few ideas;
- Introduction of womens teams?
- Work with fixtures incl. kick off times to coordinate with time slots to attract supporters for a night game, joint fixture with premier club, school game? Coordinate with Sydney Rugby to host join junior/senior fixtures.?
- A kitty that can be accessed for clubs looking to host promotional events (within reason). Could be granted on an annual basis to clubs with a plan.
- 7s,10s,pre season, trial days, gala days
- Cup style knockouts that could include country clubs, hunter region, CC etc.
- Lobby for tickets to Super Rugby or Wallabies games (we know they aren't sold out)
- Rep fixtures
- Build hype around derby days and help support the advertising of these through appropriate channels
- Media Content (they tried on Stan before) but could use Cluch for interviews, blogs, TOTW etc.
- Formalising the post match functions

Maybe not all good but hey.. Worth a crack at this point.

1. Many in here are probably sick of me saying Friday night is a go. I'd love to see them trial it at least in a division to see. I've always thought a Tahs game should be a triple header. Schools (any level), Club (SS or Subbies) then the Waratahs. Got to give people bang for their buck.

2. This is a fun idea. I like it and probably start with Div 1 and whoever may want to nominate from lower divs. Plenty of very good country sides that would give as good as they got.

3. If your a paid up player, coach or volunteer you should get a $10 entry to every Tahs game in GA. You'll make it back in beer.

 

[Rugbybloke123]

Realistically it seems that volunteer administrators are taking a leaf out of NSW Rugby's book and ensures rugby does not go further then the Gladesville bridge, keeping rugby in the East and North. With this decision, outside of the Western Sydney Two Blues, there is no competitive, high grade rugby clubs in Sydney's Western Suburbs (Blue Mountains are not Western Syd) which clearly shows that RA and NSW rugby's culture and lack of foresight into the West is flowing into grassroots rugby administrators.

It is clearly a high functioning, well run club who had a few results not go their way which saw them finished mid table. I had a look at their results last year (2022) and their 2s made the final, with 1s, colts and 3s making it to the semi's, clearly they are of the standard.

Decisions like this are killing grass roots rugby and Australian Rugby, and if you think St Pat's or Subbies doesn't have a role in the next gen, they do. The club looks to have strong juniors, a womens team, 2 colts teams (I read above), their 1st grade captain, Musico, has won a Ken Catchpole and last time I was there Mark Nawaqanitawase was on the sidelines watching his mates. Something doesn't add up here.....

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

Realistically it seems that volunteer administrators are taking a leaf out of NSW Rugby's book and ensures rugby does not go further then the Gladesville bridge, keeping rugby in the East and North. With this decision, outside of the Western Sydney Two Blues, there is no competitive, high grade rugby clubs in Sydney's Western Suburbs (Blue Mountains are not Western Syd) which clearly shows that Rugby Australia and NSW rugby's culture and lack of foresight into the West is flowing into grassroots rugby administrators.

It is clearly a high functioning, well run club who had a few results not go their way which saw them finished mid table. I had a look at their results last year (2022) and their 2s made the final, with 1s, colts and 3s making it to the semi's, clearly they are of the standard.

Decisions like this are killing grass roots rugby and Australian Rugby, and if you think St Pat's or Subbies doesn't have a role in the next gen, they do. The club looks to have strong juniors, a womens team, 2 colts teams (I read above), their 1st grade captain, Musico, has won a Ken Catchpole and last time I was there Mark Nawaqanitawase was on the sidelines watching his mates. Something doesn't add up here.....

Blue Mountains?

 

[DaSchmooze]

Realistically it seems that volunteer administrators are taking a leaf out of NSW Rugby's book and ensures rugby does not go further then the Gladesville bridge, keeping rugby in the East and North. With this decision, outside of the Western Sydney Two Blues, there is no competitive, high grade rugby clubs in Sydney's Western Suburbs (Blue Mountains are not Western Syd) which clearly shows that Rugby Australia and NSW rugby's culture and lack of foresight into the West is flowing into grassroots rugby administrators.

It is clearly a high functioning, well run club who had a few results not go their way which saw them finished mid table. I had a look at their results last year (2022) and their 2s made the final, with 1s, colts and 3s making it to the semi's, clearly they are of the standard.

Decisions like this are killing grass roots rugby and Australian Rugby, and if you think St Pat's or Subbies doesn't have a role in the next gen, they do. The club looks to have strong juniors, a womens team, 2 colts teams (I read above), their 1st grade captain, Musico, has won a Ken Catchpole and last time I was there Mark Nawaqanitawase was on the sidelines watching his mates. Something doesn't add up here.....

Agreed - still trying to think of a metric that they've failed so badly at that they need to be dropped to Div 2.

Seriously- can anyone think of one?

 

[The Wombat]

Agreed - still trying to think of a metric that they've failed so badly at that they need to be dropped to Div 2.

Seriously- can anyone think of one?

Grasping at straws here, I think Div 1 should be bigger than 8 teams with Pats staying, but:

Finished last in first grade and 3rd grade.
Finished second last in 4th grade.
Only played 2 games of 5th grade
Never won Div 2, came up during the Covid mess.

 

[footy_footy]

A bit late to the party but I have just come across the fairly pointed statement on St Pat's socials. I have no doubt the statement would have caught the attention of the Subbies Board and NSW Rugby. Are there are any avenues for appeal? Is the appeals process more transparent than the current debacle?

Assuming that the information on here is accurate (big if) what's the story with Petersham and where do they fit in all this. They did come last so not really comparable to St Pat's situation.

 

[SubbiesSoftie]

Grasping at straws here, I think Div 1 should be bigger than 8 teams with Pats staying, but:

Finished last in first grade and 3rd grade.
Finished second last in 4th grade.
Only played 2 games of 5th grade
Never won Div 2, came up during the Covid mess.

I think this is a great point but unfortunately only speaks to the further failures of the Subbies decision makers. Pats were forced into div 1 at a time that they were still rebuilding into a div 1 quality club. They did not reach the criteria for promotion but were thrown in there because subbies needed a solid club with good numbers to assist in the stability of 1st Division. Its ironic that Pats didn't fill the criteria for promotion back then and don't fill the criteria for demotion now. They seem to have been used to keep Subbies and other clubs happy but their use has run out.