Subbies 2023!

[Heavyd]

Watched UNSW v Newport - as entertaining as it was neither team would make top 4 in the Burke Cup. The standard of Div 2 is eye openly weak and it needs both forest and Petersham in it.

The yellow streak down the back of the subbies board is about to get even damper as they prepare to excuse the Mosman royalty of relegation.

kentwell finals time so we will have to park this conversation until the trough is emptied.

Well the current system isn't working and the return of 8x8x8 doesnt work.
In this system, do Mosman stay in Division 1 or drop because of the CC position they finished in?
Do Lindfield go another year in Division 2 and potentially halt their incredible momentum and be denied what they rightfully deserve.

If we return to the very outdated system, then you'd have (based on CC standings):
Division 1: Colleagues, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Blue Mountains, St Patricks, Forest, Lindfield
Division 2: Mosman (fielding at least 3 more grades than most other clubs in the division), Petersham, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Epping, Briars, Beecroft.
Division 3: Hawkesbury Valley, Knox, Sydney Harbour, Sydney Harlequins, Old Barker, Old Ignatians, Sydney Irish (??), Merrylands (??).

Mosman could play Briars and have to find games for 60-70 players. If Newport have the European exodus mid season again, that number jumps.
Subbies needs a rethink on the divisional structure, or it needs to limit the number of clubs in one area to push the numbers together.

We know that the bigger disease in rugby stems from the top, as they say the fish rots from the head. When the game's leaders decide to look at protecting the future of the game, we will be more successful.

Is this the same Mosman club that forfeited Colts twice and got belted by 70 points more than a few times. Subbies is cyclical with clubs player numbers going up and down. Yes Mosman fielded 3 colts sides last year but struggled to put one team out this year. Is it a once off? Maybe. Or is it the start of a cycle for them? I don’t know. History is full of clubs that held on too long on higher divisions and then kaboom. Now I’m not suggesting that’s going to happen to the mighty whales but shit happens.
Look at Forest, 2nd last in 1sts, last in 2nds, strong colts and mid/lower table in the lower grades. Could they not benefit from a stint on 2nd Div? Maybe win a few premierships instead of just making up the numbers. Same goes for Petersham, does the chance to maybe play finals footy sound appealing in a more evenly matched comp against UNSW, Newport, Hills etc.
Subbies has to be more than 1st Div or that’s all it will end up being, and that’s not good for anyone who wants grassroots rugby to survive.

 

[HogansHeros]

Is latter games an option?
How many clubs have lights to play night football

I know my club struggles for numbers some Saturdays depending on work with at least half our players working on Saturday and another quarter have kids sports commitments.

Our club has lot tradies and players involved in construction industry.

I know this major problem with western and southern clubs. Could help lower divisions clubs have more teams. This could really help Div 2-4

Even games just pushed back an hour would my club field an extra team or 2.

Love the idea of friday night footy. But getting volos to run it....

 

[Pfitzy]

Is latter games an option?
How many clubs have lights to play night football

It has been done e.g. Friday night finals for Radford Cup or Barbour Cup at Easts under lights.

Against the benefits, you need to consider that it might not work for every club, and the streaming service can be a bit grainy if there isn't enough light.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Stacking 1st grade with two 3rd grade props has proven a master stroke. The two wingers, half and outside centre are last years colts. The sensational Allen brothers are from last years Barraclough winning 1st grade. One of which got injured in round 3 and only came back a few weeks ago. Im at a loss as to the "stack"

Credit to the two props that battled out the final minutes. Combined age of 80+ years up against a ruthless UNSW forward pack.

There isn't any doubt that they were punching above their weight (literally) and those Allen brothers the real deal. 8 was also an absolute pest and rattled majority of the Uni pack.

Tough to beat Lindfield in what will be a huge day. Garrow & Allen to kick it out for territory.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Also for 2024 club alignment.. Honestly, I think that pre-determining anything is going to be the wrong approach.The only thing that can be agreed upon is the size of the comp to allow for scheduling and field allocation.

Subbies needs a reset. And so does Premier rugby in Sydney.

That means sitting down with each club or division and listening.

Conduct an interview to understand what is working, what is not and what are the clubs views for the upcoming season?

- What is going well with your club and what isn't?
- What do the players enjoy? Eg. Post match, Finals at proper grounds, Mid Season blocks for travel etc.
- How many are you aiming to have, what is your preferred division and what are you wanting to achieve?

Once the clubs have been given this opportunity to share then things can be taken into account for season planning. You never will make everyone happy but 2024 needs to be a two-way plan.

Then 2025 can return to promotion and relegation as per the rulebook. No more "discussions", clubs should be rewarded and penalised based on the result of the club championships.

 

[Denistone_Dennis]

Div 2 GF Predictions

1st Grade: Lindfield vs Newport
4 weeks ago, no one would have tipped this as the grand final. The influx of reinforcements has swept Newport all the way to a GF birth. They face the dominant club of Div 2 and Barraclough, Lindfield. Lindfield's dominance will obviously lie at set piece and their ability to accumulate points, however its worth noting that all of UNSW's dominance at set piece last weekend couldn't get them over the line. Start of the game will be really important, the longer Newport are in it the more they will believe. This will be closer than many think, but expect Lindfield to get over a gallant Newport. Lindfield by 15.

2nd Grade: Lindfield vs UNSW
Lindfield will go into this one as warm favourites, they seem to be a cut above UNSW and everyone else in 2nd Grade this year. UNSW were made to work hard in the prelim against Hills which won't help either. Lindfield to have too much class here. Lindfield by 20.

Colts: Lindfield vs Newport
Lindfield copped a big scare in the major semi, while Newport had to battle the week after against UNSW. Newport will believe they can win this, and they can, but a lot will need to go right, including a good start. Lindfield colts have no clear weaknesses, but Newport's ceiling might be a touch higher when at their best. Lindfield to pull away late. Lindfield by 7.

3rd Grade: Hills vs Lindfield
Expect this to be the closest game of the day. Tough to pick for a neutral tipster, as no one wants Lindfield to win everything, but Hills 3s have done themselves no favours! Lindfield seem to have found a bit extra in finals. Contrasting styles, with Hills attacking game contrasted by Lindfield's strength at set piece. Hills will want to start well to keep themselves in front, but I think this will be a battle all the way. Hills by 1.

4th Grade: Lindfield vs UNSW
Why are we doing this? A finals series created a month ago to give Lindfield another trophy from the looks. 2 types of fans for this game, people from Lindfield and people from any other club who will want UNSW to win. UNSW have the ability to challenge but whether they can put it together against a team that has dominated almost all opponents in 2023 will be a big ask (both Halligans and Richardson). Lindfield by 10.

 

[Pfitzy]

Tough to beat Lindfield in what will be a huge day. Garrow & Allen to kick it out for territory.

Hopefully the weather stays clear - the ground at Concord looks in amazing shape and it'll be some good rugby based on what I've seen there from the other finals so far.

 

[Heavyd]

Hopefully the weather stays clear - the ground at Concord looks in amazing shape and it'll be some good rugby based on what I've seen there from the other finals so far.

Full credit to subbies on this one. Concord looks like Twickenham at present and is a fantastic facility for the finals series.

 

[Heavyd]

Credit to the two props that battled out the final minutes. Combined age of 80+ years up against a ruthless UNSW forward pack.

There isn't any doubt that they were punching above their weight (literally) and those Allen brothers the real deal. 8 was also an absolute pest and rattled majority of the Uni pack.

Tough to beat Lindfield in what will be a huge day. Garrow & Allen to kick it out for territory.

The number 8 captained the Australian deaf rugby 7s team in South America at the start of the season where he picked up an injury that saw him miss half the season. He has been a huge addition back into the pack and loves the tough stuff.

Breakers will go in realistic about their chances but after last week will believe anything can happen. They have zero expectations so expect them to stick with how they play, and thats run it! If I was setting Sportsbet odds though its $1.08 vs $7.50.

I see the Lindfield 10 Sean Grace got a red in the semi and he terrorised us during the season. Assuming he will be a big loss?

 

[TheBigArvo]

Also for 2024 club alignment.. Honestly, I think that pre-determining anything is going to be the wrong approach.The only thing that can be agreed upon is the size of the comp to allow for scheduling and field allocation.

Subbies needs a reset. And so does Premier rugby in Sydney.

That means sitting down with each club or division and listening.

Conduct an interview to understand what is working, what is not and what are the clubs views for the upcoming season?

- What is going well with your club and what isn't?
- What do the players enjoy? Eg. Post match, Finals at proper grounds, Mid Season blocks for travel etc.
- How many are you aiming to have, what is your preferred division and what are you wanting to achieve?

Once the clubs have been given this opportunity to share then things can be taken into account for season planning. You never will make everyone happy but 2024 needs to be a two-way plan.

Then 2025 can return to promotion and relegation as per the rulebook. No more "discussions", clubs should be rewarded and penalised based on the result of the club championships.

Fully agree but that was the plan for 2023 after the mess at the end of 2022 and we have ended up back at the same spot. We can’t keep saying it’ a reset year and some clubs will be out of place. The system isn’t working and hasn’t for a few years even before covid we were seeing this shift. At some point we need to address how Subbies works in with the bigger Premier clubs

 

[The Waverley Walrus]

Fully agree but that was the plan for 2023 after the mess at the end of 2022 and we have ended up back at the same spot. We can’t keep saying it’ a reset year and some clubs will be out of place. The system isn’t working and hasn’t for a few years even before covid we were seeing this shift. At some point we need to address how Subbies works in with the bigger Premier clubs

Subbies board aren’t interested in engaging with clubs - 2023 a train wreck across all divisions.

if you want the ear of the pig, fill the bucket with slops.

 

[Prodigy]

Also for 2024 club alignment.. Honestly, I think that pre-determining anything is going to be the wrong approach.The only thing that can be agreed upon is the size of the comp to allow for scheduling and field allocation.

Subbies needs a reset. And so does Premier rugby in Sydney.

That means sitting down with each club or division and listening.

Conduct an interview to understand what is working, what is not and what are the clubs views for the upcoming season?

- What is going well with your club and what isn't?
- What do the players enjoy? Eg. Post match, Finals at proper grounds, Mid Season blocks for travel etc.
- How many are you aiming to have, what is your preferred division and what are you wanting to achieve?

Once the clubs have been given this opportunity to share then things can be taken into account for season planning. You never will make everyone happy but 2024 needs to be a two-way plan.

Then 2025 can return to promotion and relegation as per the rulebook. No more "discussions", clubs should be rewarded and penalised based on the result of the club championships.

Some good ideas, however, I'd ask clubs to speak with Subbies and a Division rep from the opposite end of the scale. Division 1 clubs have a meeting with Subbies, a division rep from Division 3/4 and a board member not associated with that division

 

[Post Match Boat Race]

With a whole off season to go, I'm going to sell you my proposal for Division 1:


Division 1 (10 clubs - 4 grades and Colts)
Pool A: Blue Mountains, Forest, Hunters Hill, Lindfield, Mosman
Pool B: Colleagues, Drummoyne, Petersham, St Patricks, Waverley

Home and away for your own pool in Rounds 1-8, then cross over and play everyone in the opposite pool in Round 9-13. Round 14 is a shoot out for positions - 1st in Pool A vs 1st in Pool B; 2nd in Pool a vs 2nd in Pool B, etc.

Semi Finals: Teams are ranked based on the last round playoff, winner of 1v1 is ‘minor premiers’.
Week 1 Qualifying Finals: 3 v 6; 4 v 5
Week 2 Semi Finals: 1 vs Winner of 4v5; 2 vs Winner of 3v6
Week 3 Grand Final: Winners of Semi Finals play off

Before you toss my proposal, I'll remind you that a number of Division 2 clubs are on the brink and might be unwilling to compete in the Division if Mosman and Petersham are dropped, or Lindfield stays. It is a tough slog getting players to games, without the threat of these Division 1 clubs, after a down year, taking it out on the rest of them.

WoodyWoodsman, - always healthy to have ideas rather than being told - your proposal has merits, in fact love the two pool thing within a Division. It might be all too late as Subbies (Tim Richards ) has raised on many occasions 8*8*8 (24 teams) structure for next year.

To state the bleeding obvious, aligning the standards of the Clubs in the "right" Division is imperative as lopsided comps does nothing for the strong or the weak teams. It simply becomes a frustrating comp/div for both the strong and weak.

In relation to the above " standards alignment", would a 12*12 with Pool As and Pools B within each division work? Yes, i am associated with Newport so i could i be seen to have abit of self interest however lifting oursleves and UNSW into your proposed 10 Team Div 1, would that align standards in the newly created 1 & 2 twelve team Divisions???? ( The Pools within the Divisions would need to be in place otherwise a very long season)

 

[Prodigy]

WoodyWoodsman, - always healthy to have ideas rather than being told - your proposal has merits, in fact love the two pool thing within a Division. It might be all too late as Subbies (Tim Richards ) has raised on many occasions 8*8*8 (24 teams) structure for next year.

To state the bleeding obvious, aligning the standards of the Clubs in the "right" Division is imperative as lopsided comps does nothing for the strong or the weak teams. It simply becomes a frustrating comp/div for both the strong and weak.

In relation to the above " standards alignment", would a 12*12 with Pool As and Pools B within each division work? Yes, i am associated with Newport so i could i be seen to have abit of self interest however lifting oursleves and UNSW into your proposed 10 Team Div 1, would that align standards in the newly created 1 & 2 twelve team Divisions???? ( The Pools within the Divisions would need to be in place otherwise a very long season)

I think there is merit to the proposed structure from WoodyWoodsman, and for UNSW, I could see the move being potentially a good one. I think Subbies will be wary of the Newport situation from this year. While I think Newport could definitely fit the mould, if I'm Subbies, I want some assurances around player numbers and that the European drain in the middle of the season doesn't happen again.

I could also see the merits of a mid-season break to allow players that space to travel, whether it be internationally or to the snow, although I think you need to consider what that looks like. Could it be a tournament for the 'Cowboy Cup'?

 

[DaSchmooze]

Subbies board aren’t interested in engaging with clubs - 2023 a train wreck across all divisions.

if you want the ear of the pig, fill the bucket with slops.

Looking forward to seeing your nomination to the Subbies Board for next year WW.

 

[Pfitzy]

Looking forward to seeing your nomination to the Subbies Board for next year WW.

Hey! That's my line!

 

[Pfitzy]

I think there is merit to the proposed structure from WoodyWoodsman

New ideas should be encouraged.

I've noted Woody has a general concern for Subbies and has spoken strongly in support of Epping in the past.

If they're not already, someone who could be a real asset to the club. Nothing so valuable as a volunteer.

 

[DaSchmooze]

Hey! That's my line!

Apologies Pfitzy I just think its a BS comment to make both anonymously and regarding a volunteer group trying to juggle every club's competing demands. It's not an easy task and you're on a hiding to nothing most of the time.

 

[Champagne Rugby]

Takeaways from preliminary final for div 3 regarding the GF and the seasons as a whole

- Oysters are have the best attack in the division, when they win they put a significant amount of points on the board as they did on the weekend, raising the bat for a half tonne. Oysters convincing win showed the gap between the grand finalists Oysters and Beecroft are everyone else.
- Beecroft was/is the strongest club in the division, they will appear in the GF for 1st grade 2nd grade and were 4 points away from doing it in 3rd grade. Honour mention to Oysters who 1st grade and defacto 2nd grade side also appear in the GF.
- Harlequins should give div 3 a strong shake next year - they lost in 1s and 2s but they showed on saturday they have good numbers and a great club culture, i expect they wont be a div 3 side for much longer. IF only they could find some under 21 players for a few years and manage to retain the players I could see them develop into a highly competitive div 2 side.
- Beecroft colts not making the final could prove a blessing in disguise for the club, numerous colts backed up for 2nd grade last week and it wont surprise me to some of those players listed for the bench for 1st grade next week, this time coming on as fresh reserves.
- Eats colts have now played two intense final games losing by one point and winning by three, they looked to have limitless subs on the weekend, but are there players going to be tired and battered for the final.
- Finishing top 2 was important for this division, every team that was in the Major Semi Final is playing again this week.
- Eric Tweedale is a great stadium and place for finals footy, whilst a little journey for most teams and lacking a popular watering holes for post game celebrations or commiserations, the facilities at the ground are great with an awesome granstand, great changerooms and a nice big electronic scoreboard.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Some good ideas, however, I'd ask clubs to speak with Subbies and a Division rep from the opposite end of the scale. Division 1 clubs have a meeting with Subbies, a division rep from Division 3/4 and a board member not associated with that division

Tackling player number issues also means that less grades in each Div is naturally going to happen. But planning ahead and having stronger competitions instead of stronger clubs is the right approach. Unless we want to go down the "feeder" path, this is unavoidable. Rather than scraping 4 grades together, is it not worthwhile having 3 stronger grades?

I dont know what the conversation with Newport was, but I bet they knew about players going away hence they didn't want to go up last year? Lindfield in 2024 could have the same problem. This is the challenge with the "euro trip" being some stupid right of passage for young blokes these days..

Side note - would love to see a Subbies Cup. FA Cup style.