Subbies 2023!

[Doritos Day]

Forest are on a Bye followed by Wet Weather second (21 days between matches) for the second time this season.

Something needs to be done if the divisions stay at an odd number. Wet weekends and byes (on top of public holidays - unavoidable) shouldn't both exist.

Bite the bullet and accept draws for washouts if not willing to play mid-week/Sunday. It's not a totally fair fixture anyway given you don't play everyone twice.

 

[Pfitzy]

Something needs to be done if the divisions stay at an odd number. Wet weekends and byes (on top of public holidays - unavoidable) shouldn't both exist.

Agreed.

The Board has stated their aim to get back to 8 clubs per division with 14 rounds. With 2 wet weather weekend and no byes, and the June long weekend, that's the best balance.

The issue at the moment: who is going to be able to make up divisions 2 & 3. Look at the forfeit count and clubs who can't field Colts. It's a heck of a puzzle and there are no guarantees.

Linfield's dominance gives them cause to ask for a first division spot. Are there going to be 2 first division clubs ready for a demotion? Not if you ask any of them ....

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

My thoughts are that Subbies have to look at it and just do what's best for all clubs. I really think that means a 10 club Division 1 competition.
10 Club Division 1 (4 grades + Colts): Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters Hill, St Patricks, Mosman, Petersham, Forest, Waverley, Blue Mountains, Lindfield.
8 Club Division 2 (3 grades + Colts): UNSW (although they could take the spot of one of the Div 1 clubs), Hills, Newport, Epping, Briars, Hawkesbury Valley, Beecroft, Knox/Harlequins
8 Club Division 3 (2 grades + Colts): Knox/Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Renegades, Penrith, Redfield, Northern Saints/Lane Cove, Wakehurst Brothers,
8 Club Division 4 (2 grades): Raptors, Merrylands, Redfield, Rockdale, Sydney Irish, Blacktown, Kings OB, Chatswood
12 Club Division 5 (1 grade): Manly Savers, Macquarie Uni, Alexandria Dukes, Balmain, Burraneer, Canterbury, Convicts, Georges River, Sydney Harbour, Maccabi, North Cronulla, Oatley, Terrey Hills

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

Only the club or individual taking that action, and the club affected, would know that for sure.

And, of course, anyone who receives the list of suspensions.

So we'll wait for @WoodyWoodsman to get back to us I guess?

Can't believe that he hasn't been cited or at least, stood down by the club.
Subbies have used these forums previously (without direct reference) about matters that are afoot, however, will not get into it with their "darling" clubs.

 

[HogansHeros]

8 Club Division 3 (2 grades + Colts): Knox/Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Renegades, Penrith, Redfield, Northern Saints/Lane Cove, Wakehurst Brothers,

How many of these clubs can realistically field 2 grades by the end of the season, and where are they finding colts teams?

The amount of teams each club can put out needs to be worked out by the average amount of players playing in the last 4 rounds in the previous season. Otherwise it always falls apart.

 

[Pfitzy]

The amount of teams each club can put out needs to be worked out by the average amount of players playing in the last 4 rounds in the previous season. Otherwise it always falls apart.

The numbers might change depending on if you're finals bound or not. And it is no guarantee even then.

Guys win a title and leave.
Guys lose a grand final and leave.
Guys don't make finals and leave.

I also think something needs to change in terms of assessment and grading and be earlier in the season. Clubs don't have a magic formula for player recruitment and retention.

 

[Pfitzy]

How many of these clubs can realistically field 2 grades by the end of the season, and where are they finding colts teams?

Speaking for us: probably 2 grades. Hopefully Colts.

But at this time of year I'm wondering if I'll bother going around again as a club admin lol

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

We are down to the pointy end, so Woody (after polishing off a batch of Woodstock's finest) is going to predict the outcomes of each and every grade. With 2 competition rounds to go for the lower divisions, let's get into it.
Here are Woody's fearless Division 2 predictions - Part 1:
Barraclough Cup
1. Lindfield (53 points): HILLS (H), BYE - Will be looking to finish their dominant regular season undefeated by beating Hills at home. Then sit back and watch what happens and prepared for their major semi against Uni. Well deserved minor premiers. FINISH 1st (58 points)
2. UNSW (41): BRIARS (H), HILLS (A) - Should have the firepower to put both teams away, although the road trip to Hills won't be without its challenges. FINISH 2nd (50 points)
3. Hills (24): LINDFIELD (A), UNSW (H) - The toughest run home in the history of Subbies rugby. Will be challenged to take a point from the last two games. Will be hoping for other results to go their way. Finish 5th (24 points)
4. Epping (22): NEWPORT (H), BRIARS (A) - The for/against is horrendous, but still in with a shot at the post-season. Will look to put away the teams below them, Newport at home and then see what Briars have in the last round, which is a big planned day. Finish 3rd (31 points)
5. Newport (20): EPPING (A), HVALLEY (H) - Travelling away has not been good for the Newport lads so they may choose to focus on the final round fixture and go for the BP win. Finish 4th (25 points)
6. Briars (14): UNSW (A), EPPING (H) - Have the ability to run up one win in the final two rounds, although it looks as though finals is beyond them. Finish 6th (15 points)
7. Hawkesbury Valley (9): BYE, NEWPORT (A) - A tough season for the Valley lads ends as far away from home as possible. Seems ridiculous, you go from the bye to an away fixture at Newport, but that's the draw. Finish 7th (10 points)

Barraclough Cup
1. Lindfield (52 points): HILLS (H), BYE - Like first grade, they will want to finish the season undefeated. Their defence is ridiculously good, less than a try per game. Hills will put up a fit but home crowd and 'clubby corner' get them home. FINISH 1st (57 points)
2. UNSW (39): BRIARS (H), HILLS (A) - Will want to put away Briars next game to lock in second position and repeat the major semi in forst grade. I think they will be pipped by a defiant Hills team. FINISH 2nd (45 points)
3. Hills (35): LINDFIELD (A), UNSW (H) - Hoping for an upset in the Briars/Uni game, however, will have to settle for 3rd. Finish 3rd (39 points)
4. Hawkesbury Valley (21): BYE, NEWPORT (A) - Unfortunately I think they will be ambushed by Newport in the last round, however, they squeak in based on the teams below them not getting it done. Finish 4th (21 points)
5. Briars (14): UNSW (A), EPPING (H) - Should have Epping's measure in the last round, but with nothing to play for...you'd think it wouldn't be enough. Finish 5th (15 points)
6. Newport (10): EPPING (A), HVALLEY (H) - Probably just waiting for the end of the year. Question is how many will they get to Epping after only having 10 against Lindfield. Finish 6th (10 points)
4. Epping (22): NEWPORT (H), BRIARS (A) - Will be hoping for something to go their way in the last two rounds. Should be able to get over the top of Newport at home, then a challenge at Briars. Finish 7rd (10 points)

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

Woody's fearless Division 2 predictions - Part 2:
Robertson Cup (Colts)
1. Lindfield (51 points): HILLS (H), BYE - Just too strong and too clinical. They will finish as the third undefeated minor premiers for Lindfield in a fantastic season for Old Soldier. FINISH 1st (56 points)
2. Newport (39): EPPING (A), HVALLEY (H) - The Epping fixture will be an interesting one, as they travel again and Epping is an up and down side. Form suggests they win both Finish 2nd (48 points)
3. UNSW (24): BRIARS (H), HILLS (A) - Another Uni team with a challenging final round. Should get the job done against Briars, but I think they go down to a desperate Hills. FINISH 3rd (30 points)
4. Epping (17): NEWPORT (H), BRIARS (A) - The alliance with Hunters Hill has seen Epping's numbers work out. They will expect to beat Briars in the last round and hope to catch Newport unaware. Finish 4th (22 points)
5. Hills (17): LINDFIELD (A), UNSW (H) - Lindfield will be too strong, however, I think the desperation in the last round will get them the win. Will be hoping Briars can pull the upset over Epping. Finish 5th (21 points)
6. Hawkesbury Valley (17): BYE, NEWPORT (A) - A tough finish for a tough and physical side. Newport will just have too much sizzle. Finish 6th (17 points)
7. Briars (8): UNSW (A), EPPING (H) - Toilers and never giving up. Think they look forward to 2024. Finish 7th (8 points)

Blunt Cup
1. Epping (40 points): NEWPORT (H), BRIARS (A) - The question is will Newport have a team. Then the Rams will look to finish as the only non-Lindfield undefeated minor premiers. Always a special grade for the Rams. Finish 1st (50 points)
2. Lindfield (39): HILLS (H), BYE - Hills 3rd Grade are a special team and I think Lindfield struggle with them. FINISH 3rd (40 points)
3. Hills (36): LINDFIELD (A), UNSW (H) - The third of the big contenders in Blunt. This is the most open grade in the division. Think they knock off both opponents here for a major semi showdown (and fireworks) against Epping. Finish 2nd (45 points)
4. UNSW (24): BRIARS (H), HILLS (A) - Will get the W at home, but Hills away will be too tough. All three grades will see Uni take on Lindfield in semis. FINISH 4th (30 points)
5. Briars (14): UNSW (A), EPPING (H) - Tough end for the Briars. Unless they get an influx in the last round, hard to see a win for them. Finish 5th (14 points)
6. Newport (11): EPPING (A), HVALLEY (H) - Do they make it to Epping? Don't know how, but we'll see. A forfeit and a loss against Valley. Finish 7th ( 6 points) *Losing 5 points for the forfeit
7. Hawkesbury Valley (4): BYE, NEWPORT (A) - Will use anyone available and at Newport to overcome the Breakers and move off the bottom. Finish 6th (8 points)

Woody's Div 2 Semi Finals
Barraclough: Lindfield vs UNSW; Epping vs Newport
Stockdale: Lindfield vs UNSW; Hills vs Hawkesbury Valley
Robertson: Lindfield vs Newport; UNSW vs Epping
Blunt: Epping vs Hills; Lindfield vs UNSW

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

With 3 competition rounds left in Division 4, we go to where Woody's heart really lies. We'll see Division 3 tomorrow (or Tuesday)
Here are Woody's fearless Division 4 predictions:
McLean Cup
1. Irish (52 points): Chatswood (A), Renegades (H), Redfield (A) - Will claim two significant BP wins, before a titanic clash against Redfield in the last round. A losing BP claims them the minor premiership. Finish 1st (63 points)
2. Merrylands (47): Raptors (H), Wakehurst (A), Mac Uni (H) - Three demolitions incoming after last week's close loss to Irish. Finish 2nd (62 points)
3. Redfield (41): Wakehurst (H), Saints (A), Irish (H) - Two BP wins and an upset in the huge last round due to playing at home. Finish 3rd (55 points)
4. Rockdale (38): Renegades (A), Chatswood (H), Raptors (A) - Run riot in the last three rounds as they sew up a date with Redfield. Finish 4th (53 points)
5. Renegades (29): Rockdale (H), Irish (A), Saints (A) - Need a win against Rockdale to be a hope, but I don't think they have the firepower. Then to the Irish. Not sure who travels to Saints, may get ambushed at Hassall in Round 14. Finish 6th (30 points)
6. Wakehurst (27): Redfield (A), Merrylands (H), Chatswood (A) - Tough next two rounds, however, finish the season at Chatswood with a resounding victory. Finish 5th (32 points)
7. Raptors (22): Merrylands (A), Mac Uni (A), Rockdale (H) - A win over Mac Uni the only thing here for Raptors, who haven't hit the hieghts expected as they started their barnstorming run a few years back. Finish 7th (28 points)
8. Mac Uni (16): Saints (H), Raptors (H), Merrylands (A) - Will be hoping for Saints to have low numbers otherwise a tough finish. Finish 9th (17 points)
9. Saints (12): Mac Uni (A), Redfield (H), Renegades (H) - Will bookend the season, stealing a win at Mac Uni and then bouncing Renegades in Round 14. Finish 8th (20 points)
10. Chatswood (7): Irish (H), Rockdale (A), Wakehurst (H) - The end can't come soon enough. Tough finish Finish 10th (7 points)

Grose Cup
1. Merrylands (50 points): Raptors (H), Wakehurst Brothers (A), Mac Uni (H) - Will only get two games here, but 3 BP wins. Finish 1st (65 points)
2. Rockdale (40): Renegades (A), Chatswood (H), Raptors (A) - Will be too much for all three opponents here, particularly at home Finish 2nd (55 points)
3. Irish (39): Chatswood (A), Renegades (H), Redfield (A) - Will claim two BP wins before a tough win over Redfield in the last round. Finish 3rd (53 points)
4. Redfield (36): Wakehurst Brothers (H), Lane Cove (A), Irish (H) - Forfeit, big win and narrow loss to finish in 4th place Finish 4th (47 points)
5. Raptors (31): Merrylands (A), Mac Uni (A), Rockdale (H) - A tough outing at Holroyd, before a forfeit win and a loss to a rocking Rockdale. Finish 5th (37 points)
6. Chatswood (23): Irish (H), Rockdale (A), Wakehurst Brothers (H) - Smashed by the Irish, to then forfeit on the away trip and a narrow win over the Brothers. Finish 7th (23 points)
7. Wakehurst Brothers (19): Redfield (A), Merrylands (H), Chatswood (A) - Will just be trying to get through to Chatswood. No much to play for though. Finish 8th (20 points)
8. Renegades (18): Rockdale (H), Irish (A), Lane Cove (A) - Will be hoping to get through to Lane Cove, but will they have the numbers for the Irish game. I'm anticipating an ambush by the Covies faithful in Round 14 Finish 9th (18 points)
9. Lane Cove (15): Mac Uni (A), Redfield (H), Renegades (H) - Get a small win over Mac Uni's piecemeal team and then ambush the Renegades to climb the ladder late. Finish 6th (24 points)
10. Mac Uni (-4): Lane Cove (H), Raptors (H), Merrylands (A) - Will try to pice together a team for the Lane Cove game and then that's it. Finish 10th

Woody's Div 4 Semi Finals
McLean: Irish vs Merrylands, Redfield vs Rockdale
Grose: Merrylands vs Rockdale; Irish vs Redfield

 

[HogansHeros]

The numbers might change depending on if you're finals bound or not. And it is no guarantee even then.

Guys win a title and leave.
Guys lose a grand final and leave.
Guys don't make finals and leave.

I also think something needs to change in terms of assessment and grading and be earlier in the season. Clubs don't have a magic formula for player recruitment and retention.

Yeah ofcourse its not that simple but something certainly needs to change.

 

[LRUsoldier]

Division 2

1st Grade
Lindfield will beat UNSW in a close grand final. There is another world between the rest. Hills will round out the top 4 with Newport or Epping but they are all making up the numbers past second.

2nd Grade
Lindfield will win this easy. They will beat either UNSW or Hills in the grand final, which will be a great contest for second place. Hawkesbury Valley will finish 4th but I would imagine will be thrashed first week of the finals.

Colts
Lindfield will win easy now that Newport have fallen off the cliff. The battle for second could go anywhere. Newport and UNSW are already there and Hills are the best of the rest and any of those teams could make it to the big dance. If Epping or Hawkesbury Valley come 4th over Hills, they’ll bail out in week 1.

3rd Grade
Lindfield to edge out Hills in the closest competition. All the talk will be on Epping and Hills, but I see a fast finishing Lindfield taking this one out. Epping will finish first, but they will go out in straight sets to Hills and Lindfield who will occupy the big dance. Hills hopes rest on whether Cardinals season is over, as the flamboyant 10 is their linchpin. UNSW will finish 4th but will be out first week.

4th Grade
A two team finals series which looks to be Lindfield against the winner of Uni and Hills in the last round. Lindfield have only lost to Colleagues and I expect they will win the big dance by 20+.

 

[Denistone_Dennis]

Division 2

1st Grade
Lindfield will beat UNSW in a close grand final. There is another world between the rest. Hills will round out the top 4 with Newport or Epping but they are all making up the numbers past second.

2nd Grade
Lindfield will win this easy. They will beat either UNSW or Hills in the grand final, which will be a great contest for second place. Hawkesbury Valley will finish 4th but I would imagine will be thrashed first week of the finals.

Colts
Lindfield will win easy now that Newport have fallen off the cliff. The battle for second could go anywhere. Newport and UNSW are already there and Hills are the best of the rest and any of those teams could make it to the big dance. If Epping or Hawkesbury Valley come 4th over Hills, they’ll bail out in week 1.

3rd Grade
Lindfield to edge out Hills in the closest competition. All the talk will be on Epping and Hills, but I see a fast finishing Lindfield taking this one out. Epping will finish first, but they will go out in straight sets to Hills and Lindfield who will occupy the big dance. Hills hopes rest on whether Cardinals season is over, as the flamboyant 10 is their linchpin. UNSW will finish 4th but will be out first week.

4th Grade
A two team finals series which looks to be Lindfield against the winner of Uni and Hills in the last round. Lindfield have only lost to Colleagues and I expect they will win the big dance by 20+.

Who said there was going to be a 4th grade GF? It's just halligan right?

 

[Pfitzy]

Woody's Div 4 Semi Finals
McLean: Irish vs Merrylands, Redfield vs Rockdale
Grose: Merrylands vs Rockdale; Irish vs Redfield

Top 6 this year so a couple of other teams will be involved.

It will potentially disrupt Open Selection for a couple of clubs, so they need to get their ducks in a row wrt lineups.

7. Wakehurst Brothers (19): Redfield (A), Merrylands (H), Chatswood (A) - Will just be trying to get through to Chatswood. No much to play for though. Finish 8th (20 points)

Technicality: they are on 17 because their forfeit from Saturday hasn't yet been applied.

 

[LRUsoldier]

Who said there was going to be a 4th grade GF? It's just halligan right?

Tim confirmed it at the beginning of the season to our president through email and telephone. He also sent further communication out last month.

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

Top 6 this year so a couple of other teams will be involved.

It will potentially disrupt Open Selection for a couple of clubs, so they need to get their ducks in a row wrt lineups.



Technicality: they are on 17 because their forfeit from Saturday hasn't yet been applied.

So based on last year where Div 4 had a 6 team finals series:
McLean Cup Week 1: Redfield vs Renegades; Rockdale vs Wakehurst - cricket scores in both.
Week 2: Irish vs Rockdale; Merrylands vs Redfield
Grand Final: Irish vs Merrylands

Grose Cup Week 1: Irish vs Lane Cove; Redfield vs Raptors - cricket scores here as well.
Week 2: Merrylands vs Redfield; Rockdale vs Irish
Grand Final: Merrylands vs Rockdale

 

[Heavyd]

My thoughts are that Subbies have to look at it and just do what's best for all clubs. I really think that means a 10 club Division 1 competition.
10 Club Division 1 (4 grades + Colts): Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters Hill, St Patricks, Mosman, Petersham, Forest, Waverley, Blue Mountains, Lindfield.
8 Club Division 2 (3 grades + Colts): UNSW (although they could take the spot of one of the Div 1 clubs), Hills, Newport, Epping, Briars, Hawkesbury Valley, Beecroft, Knox/Harlequins
8 Club Division 3 (2 grades + Colts): Knox/Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Renegades, Penrith, Redfield, Northern Saints/Lane Cove, Wakehurst Brothers,
8 Club Division 4 (2 grades): Raptors, Merrylands, Redfield, Rockdale, Sydney Irish, Blacktown, Kings OB, Chatswood
12 Club Division 5 (1 grade): Manly Savers, Macquarie Uni, Alexandria Dukes, Balmain, Burraneer, Canterbury, Convicts, Georges River, Sydney Harbour, Maccabi, North Cronulla, Oatley, Terrey Hills

Subbies doesnt have the luxury anymore of a 10 team DIV 1

Div 1: Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters, St Pats, Waverley, Blueys + 2 of Forest/Mosman/Petersham (last on the CC's goes down)

Div 2: Lindfield, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Knox, Beecroft, one of Epping/Briars joined by CC lowest Forest/Petersham/Mosman

Div 3: Hawkesbury Valley, Harlequins, Barker, Iggies, Epping/briars, Renegades, Wakehurst, Northern Saints

And so on.

 

[Pfitzy]

Subbies doesnt have the luxury anymore of a 10 team DIV 1

Correct. Getting players to show up for 14 rounds is tough enough. 18 rounds with another wet weather weekend? Lol.

Throw in ground allocations versus cricket and you won't have enough preseason for many.

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 1: Drummoyne, Colleagues, Hunters, St Pats, Waverley, Blueys + 2 of Forest/Mosman/Petersham (last on the CC's goes down)

Div 2: Lindfield, UNSW, Hills, Newport, Knox, Beecroft, one of Epping/Briars joined by CC lowest Forest/Petersham/Mosman

IMHO Lindfield probably deserve to get promoted. They stay another year in 2nd Div and they might wreck the joint. It needs to be considered and I'd be surprised if they don't ask.

That means considering a drop for 2 clubs in Div 1 as I said above. Not set in stone but we must get back to 8 clubs. This year was an aberration.

While I think Mosman can probably get enough CC points to move out of 8th, I think Petersham and Forest are going to struggle:

Div 1 Club Championship​

Club	Points
Colleagues	957
Drummoyne	689
Waverley	652
Blue Mountains	609
St Patrick's	544
Hunters Hill	483
Forest - Hunters Hill (H), Waverley (A), Mosman (H), Drummoyne (A)	373
Mosman - Colleagues (A), Drummoyne (H), Forest (A), Waverley (H)	350
Petersham - St Pats (A), Colleagues (H), Hunters Hill (H), Blue Mtns (A)	344

I'm taking into account that the Kentwell table has a small gap from Mosman (6th, 21pts) to both Forest and Petersham (15 pts) in this.

NSW Suburban Rugby Union

rugbyresults.fusesport.com

 

[2 + 2]

Subbies is basically a two-tier system at this point: First Division plus a couple of clubs like Lindfield and UNSW.

They've got the financial and administrative resources to run things off the field, and the players to be competitive on it. They tend to have history, facilities, juniors, and connections that allow them to maintain a critical mass. It fluctuates but this generally won't change.

Clubs below this are generally running on the efforts of volunteers, a decreasing sponsor base, and/or in areas that have been basically deserted by rugby. Every year is basically starting from scratch with recruitment & finances, and eventually the same people get sick of being stuck with it, and the club dies.

I'm not saying that big clubs don't have difficulties; the scale and angle of the issues might be different, but they still have significant advantages that aren't relatable to the small club experience.

From afar, it looks to me like Brisbane Subbies clubs are on their way out. Their Premier scene is large and hoovers up most of the talent. Subbies clubs are pretty much single grades that play against QPR 6th Grade sides of a Friday night. That's got a shelf life.

Perhaps that's where NSW Subbies will end up; First Division Clubs still playing 4 Grades + Colts on Saturday, with a Friday night comp for 1-2 Grade clubs.

Brisbane subbies is literally non existent. In Brisbane it is completely different to how its done in Sydney. QPR is the main comp with a lot of clubs having a 7th XV and some of the bigger clubs having 5thXV colts. A number of former Subbies clubs in Caboolture and Wynnum have left the Brisbane subbies comp and moved to the Sunshine Coast competition. 1st - 4th grade is played on Saturdays along with 1st - 2nd Grade colts and all played at the one venue. The 4th grade colts competition is played on a Thursday evening and is primarily made up of 16-18 year old kids who dont go to an AIC or GPS school and as there is no u18 competition in Brisbane they play 4th grade colts. The better players of that age are still playing either 1st or 2nd grade colts in conjunction with their school commitments.