Springbok Watch

[Sidbarret]

At least I solved problem of identifying the right thread for this discussion - PB and I had a discussion on the SA Schoolboy thread regarding the WP craven week team that has just been selected - (http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/sa-schoolboy-action.7936/page-5). To summarise the point I was making, WP is guilty of ignoring all but a very small fraction of the players available for craven week, race wasn't mentioned but it is relevant I will happily continue the discussion in that context on the proper thread.

As for the second half of your post, I am having trouble deciphering the point you are trying to make. My best guess is that there are players of colour that are being selected for the Springboks who do not deserve to be there. The problem is that your own post shows that it not simply white vs non-white issue, over the years there have been many undeserving players selected for the Springboks, some of whom are white and others not. The best I can determine most of these were simply selection mistakes.

Take last season as an example. Meyer opted for JJ Engelbrecht and Wynand Olivier over Juan Du Jongh in the midfield and for Jacque Potgieter over Siya Kolisi at looseforward. Yes he also went for Zane Kirchner over anybody else. Someone like Mantashe will bang on about the first two while you focus on the last one, both claiming racism, when in fact it is simply selection errors and if you look at the players involved, race doesn't seem to have caused these mistakes.

I must also take issue with some of the players you listed as undeserving. Ashwin Willemse was a fantastic rugby player whose career was sadly wrecked by injury (deservedly voted SA's best player in 2003). Paulse was a long-time springbok stalwart deserving of a lot of respect. January was a very good player for period until he got fat and Chilliboy is easily amongst the three best hookers in the country (no small feat given the depth in the position).

 

[Sidbarret]

I was really overlooked due to his dad and the Zimbabwe situation.

True but still sad for the kid, especially given the relationship South African rugby traditionally had with the Police, SADF and the Broederbond under Apartheid.

I got spitting mad when Jacque Fourie's international carreer was wasted because of people thinking Ady Jacobs was better than him.

Given that Fourie was injured in 2008 and Jacobs came in for him and played pretty damn well, you are basically harping on about the first two tests against the lions in 2009.

January selection over FdP.

Hmm how many time did this actually happen, what I recall was in 2008 January was playing pretty well while FdP was out injured. FdP returned for the home leg of the TN and had a shocker.

 

[PaarlBok]

Bok team for Italy
South Africa:



15 Willie le Roux, 14 Bryan Habana, 13 JJ Engelbrecht, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bjorn Basson, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Jano Vermaak, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Juandré Kruger, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Beast Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Flip van der Merwe, 20 Arno Botha, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Jan Serfontein

 

[RoffsChoice]

Surprised? Anyone? Thought not.

Good team.

 

[Sidbarret]

The good - Willie Le Roux starting

The "I've got my doubts" - JJ Engelbrecht, Jano Vermaak, two looseheads on the bench, Arno Botha.

Disappointed that Serfontein isn't starting and no PS Du Toit (injured?)

 

[Bairdy]

What's Brussow got to do to get a gig? Surely Francois Louw hasn't been killing it at Bath to start over the aforementioned, who's had a cracking year with the Cheetahs.

 

[Sidbarret]

What's Brussow got to do to get a gig? Surely Francois Louw hasn't been killing it at Bath to start over the aforementioned, who's had a cracking year with the Cheetahs.

Grow six inches.

Meyer doesn't believe playing a "fetcher", but Louw twisted his arm with a series of excellent performances last season. The fact that Louw is about 6'4" obviously also makes the selection far more palatable in Meyer's mind.

 

[qwerty51]

I'd start Arno Botha at 6. He's that good.

 

[Rassie]

At least I solved problem of identifying the right thread for this discussion - PB and I had a discussion on the SA Schoolboy thread regarding the WP craven week team that has just been selected - (http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/sa-schoolboy-action.7936/page-5). To summarise the point I was making, WP is guilty of ignoring all but a very small fraction of the players available for craven week, race wasn't mentioned but it is relevant I will happily continue the discussion in that context on the proper thread.

As for the second half of your post, I am having trouble deciphering the point you are trying to make. My best guess is that there are players of colour that are being selected for the Springboks who do not deserve to be there. The problem is that your own post shows that it not simply white vs non-white issue, over the years there have been many undeserving players selected for the Springboks, some of whom are white and others not. The best I can determine most of these were simply selection mistakes.

Take last season as an example. Meyer opted for JJ Engelbrecht and Wynand Olivier over Juan Du Jongh in the midfield and for Jacque Potgieter over Siya Kolisi at looseforward. Yes he also went for Zane Kirchner over anybody else. Someone like Mantashe will bang on about the first two while you focus on the last one, both claiming racism, when in fact it is simply selection errors and if you look at the players involved, race doesn't seem to have caused these mistakes.

I must also take issue with some of the players you listed as undeserving. Ashwin Willemse was a fantastic rugby player whose career was sadly wrecked by injury (deservedly voted SA's best player in 2003). Paulse was a long-time springbok stalwart deserving of a lot of respect. January was a very good player for period until he got fat and Chilliboy is easily amongst the three best hookers in the country (no small feat given the depth in the position).

Juan De Jongh is a inside center. JJ Engelbrecht is a outside center. So Meyer selected our national caption over Juan De Jongh.
Again Kolisi is a 6 and Potgieter a 7. So in fact Meyer selected Willem Alberts over Kolisi.

Ashwin Willemse was plagued with injuries yet but were kept being selected for SA? Willemse falls in the category of SA wingers who scored bundles of tries in the Currie Cup or levels below International levels. They can Shepperd a guy outside the touchline and can finish with a open try line before them but you will not find him looking for work. Nor will you find Breyton Paulse. They are not guys looking for work like a Pieter Russouw, or a Habana or a Petersen, or a Williams or a Terblanche or even a Aplon. They will hang out wide and finish it with a open try line. There is a reason Willemse could only score 4 tries one including a try against Namibia.

As for January you are saying he is better than Fourie Du Preez? You say he was better than he was before he got fat? Yet being fat he was still selected? Why?

Why did Pieter De Villiers leave the country and why did Mallett and White left their jobs? Mallett did not select Breyton Paulse cause he was the best in his position he selected him because he was forced to. That is why he and Jake White decided to call it a day and that is why Mallett will never appply for the job again.

 

[Blue]

What's Brussow got to do to get a gig? Surely Francois Louw hasn't been killing it at Bath to start over the aforementioned, who's had a cracking year with the Cheetahs.

Meyer doesn't rate him. He likes big loosies. He came up with some hogwash bullshit last year that the rules currently don't suit his play. Unfortunately come journos in SA believed it and keep repeating the bullshit.

 

[Blue]

Springboks – 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Bryan Habana, 13 JJ Engelbrecht, 12 Jean de Villiers (c), 11 Bjorn Basson, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Jano Vermaak, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Juandré Kruger, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Beast Mtawarira.
Subs: 16 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Flip van der Merwe, 20 Arno Botha, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Jan Serfontein.

Stoked about Willie le Roux. For once Meyer rewards form.

I am neither here nor there about Vermaak. He has been in good form but Piet van Zyl is unlucky.

Alberts has no form to speak of and looks fat and slow. Botha should be starting.

F Louw is lucky but he will probably play a few blinders like he did last year.

Excited about Serfontein.

Jannie du Plessis is lucky. Terrible form this year.

 

[Rassie]

We used 27 different players on the bench last year and 32 different players in the team

 

[PaarlBok]

JdJ & PS du Toit is out of the squad , injured. Agree on Brussouw, he'll be my first pick for the Bok team, squad should only have SA players, no chicken runners.

The biggest positive for me is that Meyer look like willing to change easily, few weeks back he did not rate Willie and now after some good performances he get a start. Thats the message S15 players wants.

Serfontein only needs to get on the pitch and he'll be a sure starter for many a year.

 

[PaarlBok]

Habana back in form and look to get back to his best. Willie sure made a differense for the Bok backline attack, made a few mistakes, but at least our backline look willing to spread it wide. Scrums were dominated by the Italians, lineouts also not good and thats where we need to improve fior the next test.

 

[Rassie]

Couple of points.
Receiving the kick off was a mess. We handed the Italians instant ball possession and it takes momentum away especially if you just scored.

Italians got over the advantage line to easily. If it wasn't for their poor handling, poor ball protection and poor decision making the scoreline would have looked much closer.


The subs bench and how it is wasted is another concern.
Ralepele - 75min
Nyakane - 74min
Oosthuizen - 67min
vd Merwe - 59min
Lambie - 77min
Serfontein - 72min

That is 4 players wasted already. You sit with highly motivated players on the bench who thinks that they should start the match and your team have gone to sleep and are under tremendous pressure. Players should have been introduced at that stage.

Don’t worry about developing players for the future. We should, play the game as 18 or 20 players, with some players starting but not finishing the game. Players are human beings and if they are good enough for the bench, then they should be playing some part in the game. Ten minutes is not enough, and arguably anything less than a third of the match will not allow a player to express themselves. You should always play to win and so you put on substitutes to win games, not to develop the sub.

Jannie Du Plessis needs a rest. He ran out of puff early 2nd half. Coenie is not a tighthead. Lourens Adriaanse might be the best option for it.

Bjorn Basson. Serious contender for I am playing in the Springbok team cause I am a Blue Bull. Not even match fit yet is starting a game. Its Meyers 2nd year and the "safe option with the known" is not a excuse anymore.

Willie Le Roux. Yeah yeah we all love him but for the love of god play him in his position. Stop this out of position thing at international rugby. Just ask Carel Du Plessis. Play Willie on the wing.

Morne Steyn is still standing too deep. Get him flatter and teach him how to make a flat skip pass. Cause popping it to Spoes on his shoulder is sort of predictable if you do it 10 times a match for the last 5 years.

 

[RoffsChoice]

Rassie THP does seem to be a small issue in RSA at the moment.
I'd prefer to have Kirchner at 15, le Roux at 11 and Basson off the field.

Trouble with Steyn is atm you'd be a fool to replace him - The other 5 super 10s (counting Ebersohn at the Force) just aren't up to scratch but Steyn is rather predictable with the current setup. Sort of like the anti-Quade.

 

[Rassie]

Rassie THP does seem to be a small issue in RSA at the moment.
I'd prefer to have Kirchner at 15, le Roux at 11 and Basson off the field.

Trouble with Steyn is atm you'd be a fool to replace him - The other 5 super 10s (counting Ebersohn at the Force) just aren't up to scratch but Steyn is rather predictable with the current setup. Sort of like the anti-Quade.

I do agree with you there except for the Kirchener part. Have you notice what the Bulls have done on defense in their own half? They use Ndugane at fullback incase the opposing team drop the bomb.

So if the Bulls is hiding their fullback which is the position where you normally try to hide your weaker players on defense, then one needs to ask what is he doing in the squad. Think we are seriously short on stock at fullback. But wasting Willie there is not a solution either. I would rather put Lambie there as he seems to like hanging around on fullback for the Sharks on defense to field the kick.

For Steyn we need a half back that can box kick and create space for him to kick in. Cause Teams like NZ and Australia will just realign their back three and cut out all the space for him to place the ball in. Thus resulting in opposition coming more at us and draining more the energy out of our big forwards.

I feel sorry for Hougaardt as he is a attacking 9 and his oncoming runners is forwards and not the more fleet footed backs or players with the ability to offload rather than just being predictable sledgehammers.

 

[RoffsChoice]

I do agree with you there except for the Kirchener part. The Bulls ......... use Ndugane at fullback incase the opposing team drop the bomb. ......... I would rather put Lambie there as he seems to like hanging around on fullback for the Sharks on defense to field the kick.

For Steyn we need a half back that can box kick and create space for him to kick in.

I feel sorry for Hougaardt as he is a attacking 9 and his oncoming runners is forwards and more fleet footed backs or players with the ability to offload rather than just a predictable sledgehammer.

I hadn't noticed with Kirchner. I have noticed that with Lambie, however. Doesn't seem like the Meyer way to go though (Wasn't he a 15 before he was a 10?)

If Ian Prior can be taught to box kick for the Brumbies (Compare v Hurricanes 2012 to v Rebels 2013) then Vermaak or Pienaar can be taught, but that's all down to the skills coach.

I quite liked having Hougaard on the wing last year - if le Roux doesn't stand up on the wing, bring him back in there for Bason?

 

[Sidbarret]

Couple of points.
Receiving the kick off was a mess. We handed the Italians instant ball possession and it takes momentum away especially if you just scored.

Defintely, but I am not too worried. It is the sort of thing that will improve as the guys get more time together.

Italians got over the advantage line to easily. If it wasn't for their poor handling, poor ball protection and poor decision making the scoreline would have looked much closer.

There was a definite "softness" about the boks tackling on the day. I don't want harp about it, but Spies and Kruger were seriously soft meaning that turnovers were hard to get and we were left kicking the ball long when they finally got it. The line-out also under performed on the day (though the ref was very forgiving on the straightness of the Itialian throws)

The subs bench and how it is wasted is another concern.
Ralepele - 75min
Nyakane - 74min
Oosthuizen - 67min
vd Merwe - 59min
Lambie - 77min
Serfontein - 72min

That is 4 players wasted already. You sit with highly motivated players on the bench who thinks that they should start the match and your team have gone to sleep and are under tremendous pressure. Players should have been introduced at that stage.

Noticed this as well, but I think Meyer was worried introducing players in the third quarter when the Italians had all the ball. Should maybe have looked to bring the more experienced subs (Ralepele, Lambie, Van Der Merwe and Pienaar) in a little earlier.

Jannie Du Plessis needs a rest. He ran out of puff early 2nd half. Coenie is not a tighthead. Lourens Adriaanse might be the best option for it.

Thought Jannie went well enough. I am ok with Oosthuizen being given shot at the tight head jersey and this is the type of game to do it. He struggled a bit, but the boks were never in any real danger of losing.

Personally I would have Adriaanse behind Malherbe and Cilliers in for the tighthead spot, but both of those are currently injured. If Adriaanse is capped, Meyer must commit to that selection, there are too many one test wonders under Meyer's watch already.

Bjorn Basson. Serious contender for I am playing in the Springbok team cause I am a Blue Bull. Not even match fit yet is starting a game. Its Meyers 2nd year and the "safe option with the known" is not a excuse anymore.

A bit tough on Basson. The game didn't flow his way on Saturday but he did score one try and set up another (JdV's) and had another stolen off him by JJ Engelbrecht.

Not convinced that he is the answer, but he certainly didn't hurt is case on Saturday.

Willie Le Roux. Yeah yeah we all love him but for the love of god play him in his position. Stop this out of position thing at international rugby. Just ask Carel Du Plessis. Play Willie on the wing.

I was pretty happy with Willie on Saturday. He tried things, some of it came off and others didn't, which is pretty much what we can hope for from a debutant. The alternatives for the fullback berth are singularly underwhelming so I would prefer if they give him these three tests to make his case. If it doesn't work out, go with Lambie or Kirchner for the TRC.

Morne Steyn is still standing too deep. Get him flatter and teach him how to make a flat skip pass. Cause popping it to Spoes on his shoulder is sort of predictable if you do it 10 times a match for the last 5 years.

My problem with Steyn isn't how deep or shallow he takes the ball, but rather the lack of running threat he poses to the defence. Your right about his passing, which is slow through the air, but at least he is shifting it early to get ball into better runners' hands.

To be fair to him though. Morne Steyn played his style of flyhalf play well on Saturday. His tactical kicking is normally over-rated, but on Saturday it was very very good. The boks exit strategy is clearly to kick out on near the halfway and then disrupt the opposition line-out. On the day Steyn did his bit very well, it was the line-out that failed to dominate on the day.



All of this should not be taken to mean I was happy with the Bok performance on the weekend. The middle third of the game was truly terrible. No team should go 30 min with the ball. Even in the opening 25 when South Africa was well on top, the attack lacked fluidity after a couple phases and the option of one off forward runners were over-utilized. The forwards were again guilty of not clearing past the ball and Vermaak was left digging for too many balls.

On the positive side of ledger the Boks did show an ability to score tries given a little bit of possession. If the forwards can recapture the form they showed in the second half of last season, the building blocks are there for a very strong team this season.

 

[Rassie]

I hadn't noticed with Kirchner. I have noticed that with Lambie, however. Doesn't seem like the Meyer way to go though (Wasn't he a 15 before he was a 10?)

If Ian Prior can be taught to box kick for the Brumbies (Compare v Hurricanes 2012 to v Rebels 2013) then Vermaak or Pienaar can be taught, but that's all down to the skills coach.

I quite liked having Hougaard on the wing last year - if le Roux doesn't stand up on the wing, bring him back in there for Bason?

I would think Meyers choice would have been Louis Ludik on 15 if he didn't get injured. The other option is Francios Steyn at 15.

Willie worked on his game and he is popping up everywhere much more busy and hard working than he was before.

Problem with Hougaardt is more to do with the cues he gives away when he is going to kick. It is the recognition that he is going to kick which creates the greatest pressure on him. Hougaardt does not take two steps to box kick. He plants his leading foot and takes one step to get on his left foot to execute the kick. This in itself alerts fringe defenders who can put huge pressure on his kicking technique and force poor execution. This is what is happening and it seems the Bulls coaching staff have not picked it up. All they did was to create a extended ruck and maul for him to give him more time. That for me is poor coaching from their analysis department. Its a shame Jake White isn't part of SA circle anymore cause that was one of his specialties.

Another thing I note people also mention and quite a lot when they talk about SA teams and that is the Cheetahs sort of style which they take more risks. But I also note people do not seem to realize that the Cheetahs always had a more mobile pack and smaller forwards traditionally. So they could play that way. But their problem is that when they play against bigger packs they do not tire them out before handing the ball over and that is why they get steam rolled by the Bulls year in year out.

If the Bulls adopted the Cheetahs style their men will run out of steam very quickly. They did try to use more mobile props but it is costing them at scrum time. Bulls have always been the factory for great scrummagers and they decided to close that factory and our national team is feeling it.