Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Can't find any news on progress. It happened in March so they said 6 months. Hopefully he gets some CC in time for the EOYT.
Just hope they do not rush him back.
10. Goosen and 12. Serfontein will work for me.
Springbok Watch
- Thread starter Blue
- Start date
- Status
Can't find any news on progress. It happened in March so they said 6 months. Hopefully he gets some CC in time for the EOYT.
Just hope they do not rush him back.
10. Goosen and 12. Serfontein will work for me.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
Well you can use this years defense with it if you want to. Defense is a massive part of the national teams game.
Not really the ideas but the lack of Burger stuffing us. Burger is a Kolisi and a Fourie plus extra's in one and how many times for SA or the Stormers have he started a counter attack. Look at 2010 and 2011 how they looked with him and how they looked without him. We were playing a flank on hooker, part time locks on the flanks without a decent tactical kicker. But if you look at the amount of possession the Stormers had and what they did with it than its not as bad as it looks. But making a lot of tackles shows you do not keep the ball for long and that is due to no one have stepped up and with the same work rate as Burger
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
What have Bismarck and De Jongh do that merits their selection? Except for being injured?
Roberth Ebherson defense is bad for a 12
What is Mvovo doing there? Oh wait
http://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/anc-slams-heyneke-boks-too-white.htm
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
No official quote. We have no idea of what happens behind the scenes. Maybe it has changed but that was the status quoe not too long ago. Rassie? Oom?
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Can understand logic with Bismarck.
Is Ebersohn that bad? Remember he is after all a 13 who played 122 this year.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
Ebershon or De Jongh was the choice.
De Jongh must be selected according to policy. Even if he plays like a 80 year old man with one leg. He must be selected as he is seen as talented and transformation form gets ignored totally. Sad reality of this country
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
I've been trying to catch Cheetahs games because I have a soft spot for stepping, play-making 12s. His defense is definitely not good. That said he is lightning quick and electric with the ball.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
http://www.sarugby.co.za/content.aspx?contentid=7535
http://www.sarugby.com/news.cfm?newsid=22847
Mate they do not quota's cause the National Recreation Amendment Act of 2007 give the Sports minister sweeping powers to interfere with any sports team as he sees fit.
This is the same sort of interference FIFA kicked Kenya and Greece out of football
Sidbarret
Fred Wood (13)
That is unfair on Mvovo. It is pretty hard to find a Sharks player that is playing well this season, but Mvovo might be the exception. Anyway, what white player would you replace him with? Van der Heever? Ludik?
Sidbarret
Fred Wood (13)
That is a very very poor piece of legislation, which like many others, give ministers rights that they shouldn't have... but like the other examples, the minister doesn't tend to use those powers.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
White player? Wow stop the bus mate. We are heading in the wrong direction here. Mvovo is not good enough to play at International level. Period.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
That is the catch. So you are still bound to quota's. They were clever setting up the policies. All they say now no there is no quota's but in the background there is a guy saying Hey if you do not pick a squad with so many of this color in I am going to step in.
See the problem is sports are something you start playing at schools. That is a government problem not the unions. Because they neglect the schools they want the unions to supply money to them. That is why you will have the strong schools poaching from other regions where in turn some unions cherry pick from them.
Also the other problem is that they want a team that is the same equal percentage as the make up of the country in terms of race. So the national team and aim is to have only 20 percent white players in it. Which is worrying because the majority in playing rugby in this country are the white guys. The government only work on numbers and to them a guy who made Craven week in high school MUST be good enough to play for his country 4 or 5 years later. They don't seem to grip the step up in the different levels and that some fall out the bus. That they can't understand.
Things like transformation and affirmative action belongs in the business sector and it belongs in a situation where it is used to equal the playing field with the minorities who do not have political power. Not with the majority who have political power as its basically saying you can't build yourself you have to take from others.
Btw for the record I am colored myself and I live in the Cape Flats
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
Deon Oosthuizen, Lourens Prinsloo, Chris Badenhorst, Tony Watson
Guys who scored tries by the bundles. Wasn't much considered at any other level due to being guys who need a open try line. They are finishers and rely purely on their speed nothing else. In the 15 man game at highest level you will come up short.
Sidbarret
Fred Wood (13)
And I am white with a great view over the flatse from my apartment. I also like good coffee and walks in the countryside. Now that we have made our introductions, let me answer the points you raise.
First point, this is not really the right thread for this discussion, but I don't see a better one and can't be bothered to figure out the system for starting threads on this forum.
Its pretty hard to get good data, but most estimates I have seen put white rugby players in the minority at club and school level, but either way white players do not greatly outnumber non-white players as you suggest in you post above. Not that it really matters anyway.
Do quotas exist? In the strictest sense, yes. A coach at professional level will be very ill-advised to select a team with fewer than 2 or three players of colour.
But I would suggest that people look at it the wrong way. Selection at representative and national level is indicative of the health of the player development pathways. If you will excuse my comparison, its like counting the Lions (the apex predator) in the Kruger National Park as a measure of the health of the whole eco system. To stretch the metaphor even further, what do you do when you don't like what the lion count suggests? Well the easiest thing to do is to find a bunch of donkeys and tell people they are lions. And in this case you and I seem to disagree on whether Mvovo is a lion or a donkey.
I actually don't see any donkeys in this squad. I would not have selected Siya Kolisi (who I really like as a player) cause his form is really poor, but I think he was unlucky a year ago. (edit - I would not have selected Arno Botha from the Bulls bench either, so it really isn't a racial issue, but anyway)
I found the article you posted about Mujati interesting. Ignore the fact that he is actually Zimbabwean, it raises an interesting perspective. Here is guy, given our lack of tighthead options, who would have been fantastic to have, but we South African rugby let him slip in large part because of his race. I think the same thing happened to Chilliboy whose development was held back a year or two because he was sitting on the Springbok bench instead of playing Currie Cup rugby. I also fear the same thing is happening to Elton Jantjes. I often feel that black players have unfair pressure put on them to represent a whole group instead of just being allowed to quietly develop the way white players are allowed to.
First point, this is not really the right thread for this discussion, but I don't see a better one and can't be bothered to figure out the system for starting threads on this forum.
Its pretty hard to get good data, but most estimates I have seen put white rugby players in the minority at club and school level, but either way white players do not greatly outnumber non-white players as you suggest in you post above. Not that it really matters anyway.
Do quotas exist? In the strictest sense, yes. A coach at professional level will be very ill-advised to select a team with fewer than 2 or three players of colour.
But I would suggest that people look at it the wrong way. Selection at representative and national level is indicative of the health of the player development pathways. If you will excuse my comparison, its like counting the Lions (the apex predator) in the Kruger National Park as a measure of the health of the whole eco system. To stretch the metaphor even further, what do you do when you don't like what the lion count suggests? Well the easiest thing to do is to find a bunch of donkeys and tell people they are lions. And in this case you and I seem to disagree on whether Mvovo is a lion or a donkey.
I actually don't see any donkeys in this squad. I would not have selected Siya Kolisi (who I really like as a player) cause his form is really poor, but I think he was unlucky a year ago. (edit - I would not have selected Arno Botha from the Bulls bench either, so it really isn't a racial issue, but anyway)
I found the article you posted about Mujati interesting. Ignore the fact that he is actually Zimbabwean, it raises an interesting perspective. Here is guy, given our lack of tighthead options, who would have been fantastic to have, but we South African rugby let him slip in large part because of his race. I think the same thing happened to Chilliboy whose development was held back a year or two because he was sitting on the Springbok bench instead of playing Currie Cup rugby. I also fear the same thing is happening to Elton Jantjes. I often feel that black players have unfair pressure put on them to represent a whole group instead of just being allowed to quietly develop the way white players are allowed to.
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
Just a couple of things. If there was more black people playing rugby in South Africa why do we need affirmative action in then?
Secondly have you ever been to schools in Khayelitsha, Mitchell Plein, Vahalla Park, Klipfontein etc etc? Those kids do not even have a desk to sit in where do they get rugby jerseys balls and coaches as well as a rugby field to play in a provincial competition for schools? The majority of the population can not afford to go to a semi private or private school. When you finish drinking your coffee and go look what the schools look like where the majority of the population live.
Thirdly if more black people we playing rugby where are they at Craven Week or any other level? If you look for a answer refer the second point above.
Just grabbing any black player and put him on a bench to keep politicians happy is not the right way to do it. If you disagree I refer you to Shimange, Radepele, Ndugane brothers, Tonderai Chavanga, Ahwin Willemse, Quinton David, Ady Jacobs, Ricky January, Breyton Paulse, McNeil Hendricks (I could go on and on). Do you think they were selected because they were the best at their irrespective positions or were they selected to keep the sport minister from interfering?
Same applies to this squad. Zane Kirschener was never good enough to play international rugby. Mvovo the same. Same can be said of Tony Watson, Chris Badenhorst, Jacques Olivier, Gavin Johnson, Lucas van Biljon, Luke Watson, Ettiene Botha, Wylie Human I can go on and on with guys who played a couple of tests and were never selected. They did not get selected again or had any mark in international rugby cause they were not good enough. Currie Cup level they were good but international level they failed. The norm these days is tho select people on the bench who deserve not to be there if you look at merit just to keep politicians happy which is wrong. Same reason why selecting Bismarck du Plessis selection is wrong because he did not nothing to merit his selection. So did Juan de Jongh or Mvovo
Rassie
Trevor Allan (34)
I was really overlooked due to his dad and the Zimbabwe situation. I got spitting mad when Jacque Fourie's international carreer was wasted because of people thinking Ady Jacobs was better than him. January selection over FdP.
- Status