Southern Kings OUT of Super Rugby next year

[PaarlBok]

Surely the biggest thing stopping South Africa joining the Northern Hemisphere competitions is the opposite seasons.

Who (including South Africans) are going to want to play rugby in South Africa in the middle of Summer?

I see that as a deal breaker.

Putting their biggest winter on a collision course with the South African cricket season is surely a bad idea as well.

These days cricket and rugby is played nearly all year. Also the rugby break is mid Dec to start Feb. The NH also take a bit of a break over the festive season.

Newlands the best support in rugby and cricket. 20,000 is a big crowd these days for cricket in SA. Newlands they will support both sports (stadiums is walking distance from each other) if they dont play at the same time.

 

[Braveheart81]

These days cricket and rugby is played nearly all year. Also the rugby break is mid Dec to start Feb. The NH also take a bit of a break over the festive season.

This is true however most of the time the games are played in the cooler months wherever it is located.

Super Rugby currently starts at the end of February where conditions are pretty hot as far as rugby goes. Starting earlier than that would surely be difficult and I'd imagine NH sides would be stridently against having to go and play in those conditions when they're used to training and playing in Winter conditions.

 

[PaarlBok]

This is true however most of the time the games are played in the cooler months wherever it is located.

Super Rugby currently starts at the end of February where conditions are pretty hot as far as rugby goes. Starting earlier than that would surely be difficult and I'd imagine NH sides would be stridently against having to go and play in those conditions when they're used to training and playing in Winter conditions.

You wont be able to play during the day that time of the year, however these days you get mostly night rugby anyway. Our weather pattern in SA is rainy season Inland during that time which obvious makes it a good time for rugby at night, Coastal the weather always cool off once the sun went down. February for instance is the hottest month in the Western Cape and the best time to visit. December much cooler, January a bit hotter.

 

[Dan54]

So anyway Paarl, as I said earlier, do you think NH want SA in Heineken Cup and 6N??

 

[Sidbarret]

The kings didn't have a Bad year at all. winning one game would of been great let alone drawing against the brumbies away from home and didn't they beat someone away from home?

There intra conference performances were actually ok.

Wins against the Force, Rebels (away) and Highlanders and a draw away from home against the Brumbies.

The flipside of course was heavy losses to the Crusader, Hurricanes, Chiefs and Waratahs.

What sank them were their poor results against their conference teams, failing to win any games, but I think there were only two heavy losses (Bulls and Sharks late in the season).

 

[PaarlBok]

So anyway Paarl, as I said earlier, do you think NH want SA in Heineken Cup and 6N??

Money rule rugby.

 

[Sidbarret]

Man, I not sure why there are too many moans. I personally thought the Kings were a good addition to comp, reasonable players and seemed to have good supporters. I personally don't have big problem with conference system, I know,I know everyone doesn't play blah blah blah.,but generally best 3-4 teams are in finals so it works as good as anything. It never absolutely fair with teams having different travel problems etc under old formt anyway, but hell it will do me for now.
Paarl, if Saffa teams want out of SANZAR, so be it, I personally would miss them, as I really enjoy SA rugby, but I think the world would carry on. Oh and good luck being welcomed into Heineken Cup and 6N. Would hurt earnings in SH for a while, but I'm sure something can be sorted.

I hate how discussions around Super Rugby future always venture into debate about absolutes.

The whole idea that SA must FIFO with continued expansion of Super Rugby until it becomes the only domestic competition in the southern hemisphere is misguided.

Truth is that super rugby offers certain things to South African rugby. It is high quality product with which the fans have developed a connection with, we get to see quality players from Australia and New Zealand on a regular basis and of course the money is good.

But it comes at a cost. The travel and time zones put stress on the players and the fans, it takes time away (especially in its current format) from the hugely popular Currie Cup and erodes our ability to structure our domestic game for our own needs.

The situation with each of our partners are slightly different and it means that every five years each party will push for changes that are a better fit for their needs. That's just business.

But we have now reached the point that questions need to be asked whether the needs of South African rugby are still compatible with those of its partners. It should also be noted that just because SARU pushes for something it does not mean that it necessarily in the best interest of South African Rugby.

My personal feeling is that the last renegotiation was failure. The season is too long and there are too few games that I actually care about (two South African sides playing only translates to one game I want to watch, whereas two South African sides playing foreign opposition gives me two). I hate having to deal with Aussie and New Zealand referees and their frankly weird interpretation of the laws for most of the season. I hate the fact that the Springboks only have week to prepare for the incoming test series. I hate the fact that the Currie Cup has been cut down to six teams and that the boks are only available for a maximum of three games for their local sides.

Conversely, I don't mind the "unfairness" of the draw my team might get (though this year my team the Stormers got done badly and next year might even be worse).

I kinda agree with you that it would be sad if Super Rugby should come to a end, but if it is doesn't work for us anymore, then there is no point in continuing with it.

I really wish that expansion of Super Rugby can be rolled back, but accept that it is not going to happen. I just can't see how the muted expansion into Asia and the Americas is going to work or benefit South African rugby. If it comes down to having to decide fit in with such an arrangement I hope SARU decides to FO.

 

[Sidbarret]

So anyway Paarl, as I said earlier, do you think NH want SA in Heineken Cup and 6N??

Six Nations, no, and I don't think there is much of a disagreement with regards to the Rugby Championship portion of SANZAR.

Heineken Cup is a completely different issue. I don't know if you have been following the going ons in Europe, but the future of the Heineken Cup is far from clear. The English and French clubs have taken a very strong position that they want fewer European games and a bigger slice of the financial pie. On the other side you have the Celts and Italians who prefer the current structure just fine. At the moment both sides are in bit of a standoff where neither party can really afford to pull out (though the Anglo-French have taken steps in that direction) as they would be left too little content to maintain themselves. In this battle South Africa is in pretty good bargaining position as they can give either party an out.

The logistical issues are far from the impediment they are made out to be. Essentially the only problem is the three months (Dec-Feb) where games can't reasonably be played in South Africa. That leaves Sept-Nov and Mar-June where the seasons overlap and the South African side can always play away games during our summer.

It must of course also be noted that it would be an extremely bad idea to get into bed with either of the factions up north. Nothing specific, but I just don't think it would be a very happy relationship.

 

[Dan54]

Sid, I think you will find if SA pull out of S15 (ie SANZAR), that will also take them out of RC. I can't see SANZAR saying ok, you just pick and choose where you want to be invoved with us, and players would probably be happy with a couple of less tests a year. And I can't see IRB pressuring NZRU & ARU to keep you in as they did with Argentina. Mind you I can understand exactly why SA are looking at options, with travel etc, but I don't think anything will be easy.

 

[PaarlBok]

Sid, I think you will find if SA pull out of S15 (ie SANZAR), that will also take them out of RC. I can't see SANZAR saying ok, you just pick and choose where you want to be invoved with us, and players would probably be happy with a couple of less tests a year. And I can't see IRB pressuring NZRU & ARU to keep you in as they did with Argentina. Mind you I can understand exactly why SA are looking at options, with travel etc, but I don't think anything will be easy.

The RC is a different deal compare to S15. Will be nice if we can have our normal CC and tours like in the good old days. The B&I tour is the perfect example of the direction rugby should take. SA need to take international matches (dirt tracker matches) back to the country sides.

 

[Sidbarret]

Sid, I think you will find if SA pull out of S15 (ie SANZAR), that will also take them out of RC. I can't see SANZAR saying ok, you just pick and choose where you want to be invoved with us, and players would probably be happy with a couple of less tests a year. And I can't see IRB pressuring NZRU & ARU to keep you in as they did with Argentina. Mind you I can understand exactly why SA are looking at options, with travel etc, but I don't think anything will be easy.

But Murdoch on the other hand...

Look, SANZAR is a commercial deal between the different unions aimed at maximizing revenue and product. The rugby championship works for all involved. It would be financial suicide for all the parties if they choose to end it.

Of course there is nothing stopping the ARU and the NZRU taking your position (assuming the two of them choose to form a sub-alliance within the SANZAR alliance, which is far from certain), but it would be such a crazy bluff that it would be treated with the contempt it deserves.

The Rugby Championship isn't going anywhere and making it part of the negotiations when the next SANZAR Super rugby competition is discussed would be silly.

 

[Sidbarret]

As an aside, I think there is a misapprehension of South Africa's position to Super Rugby.

We really love Super Rugby, it enjoys a massive amount of support and people are passionate about their teams. The fans love the international nature of the competition allowing us to super multiple sides over the course of the season. But super rugby is imagined differently here.

Over the last 18 years the domestic structure has developed around having half a season of Super Rugby followed by the Currie Cup. Things are different in Australia (and to a lesser extent New Zealand), where Super rugby equals domestic rugby.

The last negotiations took Super Rugby away from what originally was (a quick preseason elite competition) more towards being the backbone of domestic rugby in the each country. That was a mistake (from a South African point of view at least). I don't want super rugby to go further down that road, and wouldn't be against South Africa drawing a line in the sand and saying that if our partners want to continue in that direction that they should do so on their own.

There is also very little appetite for getting into bed with the European clubs. If you will allow me to venture into tin-foil-hat territory, I find it suspicious that almost all the claims that South Africa wants to bail on SANZAR completely originates out of Australia or more specifically from the Murdoch controlled media. I am yet to see a credible report of SARU having formal or informal discussion with people up north to setup anything as an alternative to Super Rugby. (The Rainbow Cup discussions circa 2004/5? concerned the smaller unions here and was pitched as an alternative to the Vodacom Cup, SANZAR).

 

[Mank]

Sid, I think you will find if SA pull out of S15 (ie SANZAR), that will also take them out of RC. I can't see SANZAR saying ok, you just pick and choose where you want to be invoved with us

Eh? That logic makes no sense to me. I can most certainly see SA remaining in the RC even if not in the S15. It'll be down to the TV package sold, but that's just a business negotiation.

 

[Mank]

The last negotiations took Super Rugby away from what originally was (a quick preseason elite competition) more towards being the backbone of domestic rugby in the each country. That was a mistake (from a South African point of view at least). I don't want super rugby to go further down that road, and wouldn't be against South Africa drawing a line in the sand and saying that if our partners want to continue in that direction that they should do so on their own.

I realise we have SARU which does the sums and decides on the course of our rugby, but have any of the SA fans on here met any other SA fan who wants Super Rugby to expand, or even remain at it's current verbose format? I haven't. Not a one. Every single SA rugby fan I know wants Super Rugby to cut back to fewer games, shorter season.

I want to re-iterate what Sid says: We really enjoy the super rugby comp. Most of us want SA to stay in it. So it's not about packing up our toys and buggering off. It's about the current format just not suiting South Africa. There is some reasonable debate about this from the NZAR side, but mostly I see people retreating into a position of defence: "If you don't like it, leave and good luck". That really doesn't seem like an amiable partnership with the interest of all three members at heart, and that's the sentiment I'm getting at the moment unfortunately.

 

[Dan54]

Mank, don't get me wrong, I would much rather have SA in S15 and in RC (I old enough to still consider SA ABs main rivals), and I actually agree with comments that I S15 does not need to expand, I much preferessed S12 to be honest. I actually think if it does have to expand, it needs to be done in a way that just has completely seperate conferences, and then straight top 2 teams (or something like that) from each conference then play each other in finals. Make less games for all teams. Not sure what answer is, but as Sid and Paarl say you have option to go to NH, my main answer to that is good luck, because sure as hell you will get less say up there. My other point about RC is, with your players playing in NH comp, would you then not have all your players wanting or needing a break when RC is played?? Or perhaps you think the RC tests should be moved to another date?? See what I mean about pulling out of one may mean you pulling out of both?? It's not about being petulant or anything. it's about looking at all scenarios!!!

 

[kiap]

Well, the Kings ARE gone now. Despite winning the 2nd leg 23-18, they went down by 41 to 44 on aggregate to the Lions.

These teams are much of a much.

 

[Rassie]

Mank, don't get me wrong, I would much rather have SA in S15 and in RC (I old enough to still consider SA ABs main rivals), and I actually agree with comments that I S15 does not need to expand, I much preferessed S12 to be honest. I actually think if it does have to expand, it needs to be done in a way that just has completely seperate conferences, and then straight top 2 teams (or something like that) from each conference then play each other in finals. Make less games for all teams. Not sure what answer is, but as Sid and Paarl say you have option to go to NH, my main answer to that is good luck, because sure as hell you will get less say up there. My other point about RC is, with your players playing in NH comp, would you then not have all your players wanting or needing a break when RC is played?? Or perhaps you think the RC tests should be moved to another date?? See what I mean about pulling out of one may mean you pulling out of both?? It's not about being petulant or anything. it's about looking at all scenarios!!!

Do you know why they do not show much Premiership games on SA tv? Cause we hate them. We want to see them ones or twice a year beat them up and thats it. On a weekly bases no thanks. I think we should go back to Super 14. Australia should really benefit from Force and Rebels as one package.

But I think the Watsons and some other politicians are going to make noise about this and trying to put pressure on SARU to leave SANZAR. THey were clever in creating the myth about development in that region.

 

[Rassie]

Ellispark sold out. 60 000 for the promotion/relegation game leg2 for Super Rugby between the Golden lions and the Southern Kings

 

[Lindommer]

But I think the Watsons and some other politicians are going to make noise about this and trying to put pressure on SARU to leave SANZAR. They were clever in creating the myth about development in that region.

Personally, I find soccer a boring, much over-rated game. But I do admire FIFA's stance of complete non-interference by governments in the affairs of their national football associations. ATM Cameroon's going through a FIFA-imposed suspension due to its government playing silly buggers with its soccer body. In 2010 Nigeria copped a stint on the sidelines for the same reason.

Like all sensible people I sympathise with the modern SAf as its struggles with the burdens of coming to grips with its immediate past. However, if the Saffer politicians can keep their noses out of soccer's goings-on why can't they be told to do likewise with rugby?

Note to the iRB: copy this FIFA non-interference rule into your regulations.

 

[boyo]

Personally, I find soccer a boring, much over-rated game. But I do admire FIFA's stance of complete non-interference by governments in the affairs of their national football associations. ATM Cameroon's going through a FIFA-imposed suspension due to its government playing silly buggers with its soccer body. In 2010 Nigeria copped a stint on the sidelines for the same reason.

Like all sensible people I sympathise with the modern SAf as its struggles with the burdens of coming to grips with its immediate past. However, if the Saffer politicians can keep their noses out of soccer's goings-on why can't they be told to do likewise with rugby?

Note to the iRB: copy this FIFA non-interference rule into your regulations.

You're not Robinson Crusoe.