South Africa vs World XV

[PaarlBok]

Mvovo will probably cover 13 otherwise they'll borrow Meisiekind from the opponents.

I am so gatvol of this shite to be really honest.

 

[Tomikin]

Strange looking backline imo. JPP and Franz Steyn playing out of their Super positions (Though Steyne is a better 12 than 10) and Habana, Morne and Pienaar all playing in the North. Habana and Backies particularly will need to show great improvement on their Top 14 final form.

One game doesn't make a season they won the double.. give it a break saying how crap they are.. Habana Botha Gits Mitchell ... Were champions and probably still extremely good..

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[Blue]

Habana and Backies particularly will need to show great improvement on their Top 14 final form.

Habana I will give you. He has been terrible.

But Bakkies has been in career best form.

If you had to pick a best of Top 14 team he will be one of the very first just about every coach would pencil in.

I think you are basically raising issues with overseas players. It is no longer a discussion point with South African teams. It has very quickly become the status quo and will remain just that, whether we like it or not.

 

[ChargerWA]

Spewing were not getting to see this game. World 15's/Barbarian teams are always interesting. In theory they should be well beaten, but when they click it's something magical to watch.

 

[Blue]

Mvovo will probably cover 13 otherwise they'll borrow Meisiekind from the opponents.

I am so gatvol of this shite to be really honest.

what shite?

The no Juan de Jongh shite?

Agree. I like JP at 13 but he has been in bad form.

 

[Wacko]

An interesting match as both sides have the 'Barbarians' element. The Springboks have included several players who are currently foreign based. This is not simply because of injuries, but because of a preference to balance newer players with the experienced, and in the case of Bakkies Botha and Fourie du Preez, the positively grizzled.

The debate over the inclusion of foreign based players will continue, probably more so from Australia & New Zealand, both of whom would argue that South Africa has an advantage with their policy. I think that most of we antipodeans would love to have guys like Habana, Britz and big Bakkies playing week-in week-out for a Super XV side, but maybe aren't so thrilled with their inclusion as opposition for the Rugby Championship if they aren't.

In 2012, only Ruan Pienaar was included in the 23 for the inaugural Rugby Championship, whilst two players who were part of the squad in the previous series against England, Wynand Olivier and Ryan Kankowski, had signed contracts to play their rugby in Japan and were not considered. The number increased last year, and has done so again this year to 8. We will wait to see what happens this year, but I don't think Springbok selection will differ between which Nation they face.

I can't see why Bakkies Botha has been picked anyway. South Africa has more blokes in the country that are built like brick shithouses (ie: perfect specimens to be a lock) than Antarctica has penguins. Eben Etzebeth may be out, but surely stocks can't be that low. It is an insult to Flip van der Merwe for a start. (Or any of the locally based players for that matter, as with a quick troll around the web this morning, nearly all the photo's are of Botha or du Preez and had me wondering if we were in the right year).

And how many of us would love to have the flexibility in our team to match what Willem Alberts offers? Lock is not a problem area for the Springboks, nor the backrow, yet Francois Louw has also been recruited. Yes, it's a formidable pack, big and tough and flexible, and it's going to make an opposition lineout steal virtually impossible. But somehow it's a shame to 'bring in' these players when we have truly seen some talent this season. Even with a steady stream of injuries, franchises such as the Lions & Cheetahs repeatedly field gun players in this area. Maybe Whiteley, Deon Fourie, Brousseuw and Nizaam Carr, just to name a few, just aren't big enough to satisfy the conditions of being a Springbok forward.

But in the case of Bakkies Botha, maybe the occasion is more the reason, a bit of fun and not a super-serious test match. And the prospect of having Botha pack down once again with Victor Matfield, something we all thought would never again happen, is too tantalising to resist.

But what about the 'importation' of two halfbacks? Francois Hougaard is an extremely talented player who hasn't had his best season, but number 9 stocks in South Africa are not exactly dire. Sure, the current crop of halfbacks don't use the boot as effectively as Du Preez & Pienaar, both 'traditional' Bok halves, but I will give you the tip: Kicking away ball to the World XV backline won't be a good idea.

I don't really see what is wrong with playing Hougaard and Goosen; Australia, for example, is constantly forced to blood players and combinations. And, I think it makes it more interesting as each team goes through these phases rather than fall back to the tried and tested. But do the majority of fans want the 'best' of their passport holders to represent their country, regardless of their current address?

Craig Burden knows he won't play for the Boks because he's not that sort of player. He's the sort of player that everyone else wants. Michael Hooper wouldn't be picked for the Boks or the All Blacks, but he is most definitely suited to traditional Wallaby play. Morne Steyn is a solid choice for South Africa, but I suspect if it came down to it, Australia would go with Hegarty over Morne. It's evolved firstly through Mark Ella, and then undisputedly through Larkham, and is apparent with the sensible pick of another highly talented although non-traditional fly half such as Foley. (non-traditional rugby fly-half rather than non-traditional Australian rugby fly-half). So I suppose we must factor instances like this in the discussion.

Would the Boks be that depleted if they picked a purely domestic team? And which 8 players would get the honours of the green jersey?

Could the Wallabies use some foreign-based talent? Or the All-Blacks? And if so, who would you include and replace?

Three inclusions for Australia are playing for the World XV: Giteau, Mitchell & O'Connor. Giteau is better than ever, and has matured both as a player and person. Tevita Kurindrani may be the future, but right now he is not better than Matt Giteau, and I can't see Kurindrani having even the potential to be as influential. When Drew Mitchell left our shores, he wasn't in great form, but neither are many players after suffering serious and extended injuries. I don't expect David Pocock to be back at his best or play with the same confidence until well after the World Cup. Both Schalk Burger and Heinrich Brussow are examples of previously devastating players in the back row that are only now reaching previous heights. But without Pocock, the Australian depth is much affected. I doubt there would be anyone who wouldn't enjoy hearing the words 'George Smith' again.

But I digress, Drew Mitchell: straight into my side. He's back to his best and he is a decent specialist winger any day of the week. Nick Cummins may be loveable, but until it actually happened, I don't think even Mr. & Mrs. Cummins would have had him in their run-on team. Wingers like the Honey Badger and say, Jonny McNicholl, are not quite multi-skilled enough to be internationals, but they certainly deserve their spot patrolling the sidelines for their respective teams, don't get me wrong.

I have no concern what James O'Connor does in his spare time. He can get sloshed and hop on a plane to a Belgian monastery for all I care, as long as he knows that if he isn't fit enough to play, that's his problem. Even at his most average, you've gotta think that the pride in the jersey would make him a much better option than the Honey Badger (sorry Mr. & Mrs Cummins).

Even if the ARU changed their position, I doubt much would change, for the time being anyway. Ewen McKenzie has already shown that even thinkingabout going overseas greatly reduces your chances of selection. But, I doubt Mowen and Pyle would get selection next year even if there was a policy change. There are too many other Australians running around the globe who are better players, and it's well known that Australia simply just can't allow an further exodus of stock. But, if the policy were relaxed, foreign based players would still be aware they are unlikely to be picked because of just that, but when injuries reach levels as they have in periods over the past few years, at least there is an option. Nobody wants to see England break the record books and thrash Australia by 60 points because we are too stubborn to at least save National pride.

For the first time in a long time, the Wallabies backline looks to be severely lacking in pace and razzle-dazzle. They have a strike weapon in Folau, but can the current side hold their own enough to protect Foley and to move forward enough to use Folau effectively, or would the skill of the Aussie expats be better suited to confuse the opposition into just expanding that hole a little bit more for Izzy to pounce?

You may have noticed that I haven't talked about New Zealand. It's pretty obvious isn't it? The depth of stock is just too great that it doesn't matter if foreign based players are available or not. If the All-Blacks were playing the World XV though, I'll bet Ranger would put in a decent hit or three on Fekitoa..

As the game expands further, players are more influenced by lifestyle and financial choices, and countries relax further their citizenship requirements (ie: France), maybe someday we'll have no option but to run Tests as a 'state of origin. When that day comes though, somebody really will have to turn off the lights at Auckland airport, and hopefully, George Smith will still be available.

 

[Wacko]

Sensational post. Cheers. I'll respond. It's taken a while for me to see something worth responding to!

1) The 8 Springboks who could be there if the rules were otherwise and Meyer had to choose from the locals, are listed amongst the rest:

Mvovo
leRoux
Frans Steyn
De Allende
JP Pietersen
Goosen
Hougaard
Marcell Coetzee
Vermuelen
Burger
Alberts
Flip van der Merwe
Mtawarira
Bismarck DP
Coenie Oosthuizen

Jannie DP
Redelinghuys
Visagie/Deon Fourie
Matfield
Brussow
Ahmm...is Vermaark available?
de Jongh
err..another utility? Hendricks?

That's a great team, and sure, the two that are a bit suss is just tough luck. Australia has to deal with the inclusion of the Honey Badger, so things can't be that bad.

2) The Wallabies without the restrictions:

Folau
Mitchell
Adam AC
Giteau
O'Connor
Foley
Genia
Higginbotham
George Smith
Hooper
Jones
Carter
Slipper
Moore
Sio

Robinson
Cowan
Polata-Nau
Elsom/Skelton
McCalman/Hodgson
Phipps
Beale
McCabe

A nice looking team too, I must say. See you all tomorrow!

 

[Jason Little]

Sensational post. Cheers. I'll respond. It's taken a while for me to see something worth responding to!

1) The 8 Springboks who could be there if the rules were otherwise and Meyer had to choose from the locals, are listed amongst the rest:

Mvovo
leRoux
Frans Steyn
De Allende
JP Pietersen
Goosen
Hougaard
Marcell Coetzee
Vermuelen
Burger
Alberts
Flip van der Merwe
Mtawarira
Bismarck DP
Coenie Oosthuizen

Jannie DP
Redelinghuys
Visagie/Deon Fourie
Matfield
Brussow
Ahmm.is Vermaark available?
de Jongh
err..another utility? Hendricks?

That's a great team, and sure, the two that are a bit suss is just tough luck. Australia has to deal with the inclusion of the Honey Badger, so things can't be that bad.

2) The Wallabies without the restrictions:

Folau
Mitchell
Adam AC
Giteau
O'Connor
Foley
Genia
Higginbotham
George Smith
Hooper
Jones
Carter
Slipper
Moore
Sio

Robinson
Cowan
Polata-Nau
Elsom/Skelton
McCalman/Hodgson
Phipps
Beale
McCabe

A nice looking team too, I must say. See you all tomorrow!

Almost a perfect replica of my idea's. Mvovo is the fullback the Boks have been looking for; the exclusion of Horwill and his mate is great because the pair of them give away penalties as if they were dumping off socks to the Salvation Army, and, look, I love Palu, but he just is not influential anymore. I have been bombarded with calls to include Digby, but if Quade is out, so is Ioane. Cheers, and thanks for the nice words from others on this forum.

 

[Ulrich]

I don't think we should read too much into these selections. Meyer wants to improve on last year and the motto we live by in SA is continuity is key.

Therefore the forwards are what matter here and the backline is likely to change unless they all have a blinder. It's sad however that we are playing our front row into the ground, but it is not up to the national coach to rest these players even though a case could be made that this is a dead rubber and a perfect opportunity to test some other guys. We simply have to start building momentum.

National coaches do not have much time to work within, we have 18 games before the world cup, 14 of them in this year alone. Now is not the time to make too many radical changes. The important thing here is to continue with the consistent winning habit and get one over the old foe we love.

Matfield and Bakkies may just be what we need to finally beat the All Blacks this year.

 

[redstragic]

*gasp*! Surely you can't say that Matt Giteau is NOT World Class! He would easily walk back into the Wallabies right this second!

Just ask Eddie Jones. Or Marto.

Would love to somehow see gits at 12 for us next year. Would really help us get the job done.

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[Blue]

I don't think we should read too much into these selections. Meyer wants to improve on last year and the motto we live by in SA is continuity is key.

Therefore the forwards are what matter here and the backline is likely to change unless they all have a blinder. It's sad however that we are playing our front row into the ground, but it is not up to the national coach to rest these players even though a case could be made that this is a dead rubber and a perfect opportunity to test some other guys. We simply have to start building momentum.

National coaches do not have much time to work within, we have 18 games before the world cup, 14 of them in this year alone. Now is not the time to make too many radical changes. The important thing here is to continue with the consistent winning habit and get one over the old foe we love.

Matfield and Bakkies may just be what we need to finally beat the All Blacks this year.

Spot on Ulrich waar loop jy rond bra?

I would not read much into these selections in terms of the back line players that Meyer wants.

Lambie, JdV, Fourie, Hougaard, JdJong etc etc

There are lots of other options. What will be interesting to see is how much he changes things for the Wales tests.

And hell, that Handre Pollard laaitie is one HELL of a rugby player. He was absolutely sublime in the Baby Boks giving the Baby Blacks an almighty dust up yesterday. Seemed to be so composed and the team really look to him for leadership.
How good is that young squad? The big mother winger with Sergal Pietersen on the other wing. Two monster locks who move like back rowers and the props. The tight head prop is a monster. Exciting.

 

[Ulrich]

Well, we won.

Really hate it more than anything when our scrum is not the best on the pitch so that's something that has to improve.

 

[Pfitzy]

Would love to somehow see gits at 12 for us next year. Would really help us get the job done.

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Squad player at best right now. To'omua ahead of him IMHO

 

[RugbyReg]

Would love to somehow see gits at 12 for us next year. Would really help us get the job done.

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Because of his form in France? We saw last night what 'form in France' gives you.

 

[redstragic]

Because of his form in France? We saw last night what 'form in France' gives you.

He play bad? Guess I got caught up in all the Gits hype in his last few I saw him play in France.

I never saw the game. I looked for it on foxtel.

 

[RugbyReg]

He play bad? Guess I got caught up in all the Gits hype in his last few I saw him play in France.

I never saw the game. I looked for it on foxtel.

I'm referring to the French team's performance which was filled with players who I am assuming have also played well in the French comp.

 

[redstragic]

I'm referring to the French team's performance which was filled with players who I am assuming have also played well in the French comp.

Oh that. That's the French though isn't it? They are just as likely to pound us next wekend then get fried in the third.

 

[boyo]

So apparently these games weren't even offered for sale to Foxsports etc.

Can't believe they won't be shown!

That's why it wasn't in the FoxSports guide, @redstragic.