Somebody Defrost Larkham

[Pfitzy]

I watched Worcester v Bath on Setanta earlier today - that bloke Latham looks like he could go quite well in an Aussie jumper.

If both those teams weren't such hopeless plodders. Peter Hewat and Manny Edmonds also ripped it up in Europe.

 

[Gagger]

What couldn't the Wallaby backs do last night? - attack their way out of a wet paper bag.

Has this happened all season? Yes

Who's the VC and 10? Matt Giteau.

Would we like him to be a great international 10? Yes.

Is he? No

We have the answers. It's madness not to act on them.

 

[Cutter]

Out of the international competition who's a better-performing 10 than Giteau?

Some will answer "Carter" but apart from his tactical kicking and the vision that guides it, I question whether he's doing any better as a playmaker. Like Giteau he probes and tests and sends runners crashing into the line to no good effect. In this Test era even the best 10s can't launch attack out of nothing. Defences are too fast and structured, at least for 60 minutes. When the lines finally start to break down, the chances are there.

Clearly Gits is out of form but I don't think that's the problem with the Australian attack. Significant factors are slow ball from rucks, hasty ball from the scrum base, messy ball from the lineout, lateral runners, and a lack of space and time thanks to rushing tacklers.

Nice try Mrs Giteau.

 

[Viking]

whos a better performing international 10 then giteau? hahahahhahaha.. everybody!

 

[Scotty]

I watched Worcester v Bath on Setanta earlier today - that bloke Latham looks like he could go quite well in an Aussie jumper. Pretty good full back and dare I say better than most other options as well. But then I remembered that stupid rule that says if a player wants to look after his future earnings and pick up some easy money overseas then he shall not be considered for test selection.

Latham wanted to stay in Australia. He only left because the ARU through Pat Howard decided to give him a greatly reduced contract offer. In hindsight, he may have been injured most of the time anyway, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have added to this current Wallaby team - we need a few old heads in a time of transition, and fullback is one of our weakest positions.

I agree with Zeno that it isn't just Giteau's fault. There is a few other issues - lack of combinations and lack of runner options. We have barely had 2 tests in a row with the same backline this year so that is going to make it very difficult, and the guys that are there don't know how to inject themselves into the attack and the run angles. Ioane is about the only one that seems to run angles, but he is better when on the wing and looking for work - he is still learning 13. While we can't criticise AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) too much, I think one big thing he lacks as a fullback (apart from the obvious kicking ability) is the ability to inject himself into the backline at pace. Give the ball carrier some options.

Giteau would look a whole lot better at 10 if he had the likes of Mortlock and Latham as runners inside and outside of him. Of course he would look even better at 12 with Cooper inside giving him and our backline some real width.

We just have to realise that our backline individuals are pretty average. Not one of them would have even been considered for the Wallaby team circa 99. I doubt that even one of them have the potential to be as good as any of those players in their respective positions (one exception might be Genia). We have to hope that we will find some with this potential, and quickly.

 

[Spook]

Giteau would look a whole lot better at 10 if he had the likes of Mortlock and Latham as runners inside and outside of him. Of course he would look even better at 12 with Cooper inside giving him and our backline some real width.

We just have to realise that our backline individuals are pretty average. Not one of them would have even been considered for the Wallaby team circa 99. I doubt that even one of them have the potential to be as good as any of those players in their respective positions (one exception might be Genia). We have to hope that we will find some with this potential, and quickly.

Well said. Been trying to make the same point myself but you made the argument better than I did.

 

[Cutter]

I watched Worcester v Bath on Setanta earlier today - that bloke Latham looks like he could go quite well in an Aussie jumper. Pretty good full back and dare I say better than most other options as well. But then I remembered that stupid rule that says if a player wants to look after his future earnings and pick up some easy money overseas then he shall not be considered for test selection.

Latham wanted to stay in Australia. He only left because the ARU through Pat Howard decided to give him a greatly reduced contract offer. In hindsight, he may have been injured most of the time anyway, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have added to this current Wallaby team - we need a few old heads in a time of transition, and fullback is one of our weakest positions.

I agree with Zeno that it isn't just Giteau's fault. There is a few other issues - lack of combinations and lack of runner options. We have barely had 2 tests in a row with the same backline this year so that is going to make it very difficult, and the guys that are there don't know how to inject themselves into the attack and the run angles. Ioane is about the only one that seems to run angles, but he is better when on the wing and looking for work - he is still learning 13. While we can't criticise AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) too much, I think one big thing he lacks as a fullback (apart from the obvious kicking ability) is the ability to inject himself into the backline at pace. Give the ball carrier some options.

Giteau would look a whole lot better at 10 if he had the likes of Mortlock and Latham as runners inside and outside of him. Of course he would look even better at 12 with Cooper inside giving him and our backline some real width.

We just have to realise that our backline individuals are pretty average. Not one of them would have even been considered for the Wallaby team circa 99. I doubt that even one of them have the potential to be as good as any of those players in their respective positions (one exception might be Genia). We have to hope that we will find some with this potential, and quickly.

Scotty I agree with what you say about AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). He plays fullback like a centre. He chimes into the backline like a centre and not like a fullback (ie from depth) and he supports in the same channel as a centre would support. Compare with Latham who entered the backline from depth, in various channels across the backline and supported all over the field. In fact, Latham kept alive half breaks and converted full breaks into tries through his good support play. Britney is actually ok at doing this. The more I think about it, the more reluctant I am to keep AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at fullback.

In terms of the 99 side, bear in mind that they were all doing the little things well which meant they were greater than the sum of their parts. Currently, we have a backline of not great players who are less than the meagre sum of their parts. If they started doing the little things well, it would be a very different picture.

My backline for Saturday:

9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Hynes
12. Tim Horan (captain)
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Diggers
15. Schmoo.

 

[disco]

Clearly Gits is out of form but I don't think that's the problem with the Australian attack. Significant factors are slow ball from rucks, hasty ball from the scrum base, messy ball from the lineout, lateral runners, and a lack of space and time thanks to rushing tacklers.

Gits is a very good player even brilliant some days but he just doesn't cut it as a flyhalf, he stands to deep in attack as do the outside backs so I don't know who's fault that is. The coach or Giteau himself.

We just have to realise that our backline individuals are pretty average. Not one of them would have even been considered for the Wallaby team circa 99.

Don't forget a lot of that backline was also running around in 1997. If the years 98-02 were washed from our memory a lot of todays players wouldn't be looking as bad.

The years 1997 & 1999 are a good example of what can be done with a lot of hard work & discipline.

A Good story when MacQueen took over & coached the Wallabies on his 1st spring tour was that John Eales
approached Rod MacQueen as Capatin on behalf of the other players and asked if they could move the training camp closer to London as there were better pubs.

I'm sure you all know MacQueens answer.

Latham kept alive half breaks and converted full breaks into tries through his good support play. Britney is actually ok at doing this. The more I think about it, the more reluctant I am to keep AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at fullback.

Ditto about Britney & would like to see AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the wing with Cam Shepherd at 15 as Britney just shits me for some reason.

 

[naza]

A Good story when MacQueen took over & coached the Wallabies on his 1st spring tour was that John Eales
approached Rod MacQueen as Capatin on behalf of the other players and asked if they could move the training camp closer to London as there were better pubs.

I'm sure you all know MacQueens answer.

Was it 'yeah, as long as you'll let me keep picking Pat Howard and Brett Robinson over Tim Horan & Dave Wilson ?'. Who do you think was responsible for the plummeting morale on that EOYT ?

 

[Scotty]

Don't forget a lot of that backline was also running around in 1997. If the years 98-02 were washed from our memory a lot of todays players wouldn't be looking as bad.

The years 1997 & 1999 are a good example of what can be done with a lot of hard work & discipline.

A Good story when MacQueen took over & coached the Wallabies on his 1st spring tour was that John Eales
approached Rod MacQueen as Capatin on behalf of the other players and asked if they could move the training camp closer to London as there were better pubs.

I agree disco, but that is also why I added the line about having potential. Who out of the current backline do you think has the potential to match up to the likes of Burke, Tune, Horan, Herbert, Little, Larkham, Gregan?

 

[cyclopath]

Don't forget a lot of that backline was also running around in 1997. If the years 98-02 were washed from our memory a lot of todays players wouldn't be looking as bad.

The years 1997 & 1999 are a good example of what can be done with a lot of hard work & discipline.

A Good story when MacQueen took over & coached the Wallabies on his 1st spring tour was that John Eales
approached Rod MacQueen as Capatin on behalf of the other players and asked if they could move the training camp closer to London as there were better pubs.

I agree disco, but that is also why I added the line about having potential. Who out of the current backline do you think has the potential to match up to the likes of Burke, Tune, Horan, Herbert, Little, Larkham, Gregan?

Potential? I would say Genia definitely, Quade very likely as a 10, and JO'C probably at 12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will always be good, but may ultimately be cursed by his versatility and not shine in one position. I think Giteau could be a great 12, but needs a very good 10 to make him so. I think they all have some way to go.

 

[mark_s]

Giteau's time at 10 reminds me of the illfated Horan at 10 experiment. Hopefully it leads to he same outcome.

 

[Viking]

Horan didnt do too badly at 10 did he? he was only replacing an injured larkham as i recall. could be wrong.

 

[eddo]

What's all this bullshit about moving Cooper to 10?
You can't be serious.

He's not good enough to start at 10 for the worst Super 14 team we have.. I mean shit, I'd rather have Daniel Halangahu at 10 any day of the week.

I think other teams are beating us because they have the star talent outside 10 and they have solid distributors in the role who just get the ball to where it needs to be. (stephen jones, even Dan Carter)
You can't tell me the guy who made the most inappropriate attacking decision of the weekend (the long fwd pass to mitchell on the tryline) should be running our attack.

If we could put in a straight forward distributor like you get from Halangahu, then you can have Gits at 12 and Ioane at 13 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 15.. I don't think there is a backline on the planet that would like seeing a pass ghosting flat and hard across the front of those three and not knowing which one would get it.. I'm excited just thinking about it.

Move our attack one step wider (i.e. relieve Gits from thinking he needs to do it all by himself) and I think we'll take a step towards working more cohesively too..

Massive shame To'omua broke his jaw today against Cardiff. So,.. with that in mind there are two backlines one with no injuries and one for this weekend.

Better Days
10. Barnes
11. Hynes
12. Gits
13. Ioane
14. Mitchell
15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

vs Welsh
10. Gits
11. Hynes
12. T.Smith/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
13. Cross (only if Ioane is out)
14. Mitchell
15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/JOC (James O'Connor)

"give the ball to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)"

 

[Scotty]

Scotty I agree with what you say about AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). He plays fullback like a centre. He chimes into the backline like a centre and not like a fullback (ie from depth) and he supports in the same channel as a centre would support. Compare with Latham who entered the backline from depth, in various channels across the backline and supported all over the field. In fact, Latham kept alive half breaks and converted full breaks into tries through his good support play. Britney is actually ok at doing this. The more I think about it, the more reluctant I am

What Deans wouldn't give to have players more like Latham. He was probably the essence of instinctive rugby - sometimes it failed him, but most times it worked and sometimes it meant he could achieve things that others couldn't.

Potential? I would say Genia definitely, Quade very likely as a 10, and JO'C probably at 12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will always be good, but may ultimately be cursed by his versatility and not shine in one position. I think Giteau could be a great 12, but needs a very good 10 to make him so. I think they all have some way to go.

Genia could be as good as Gregan, Quade has the skills but his head will stop him from being as good as Larkham, there is no way the JOC (James O'Connor) in the same league as Horan but he may end up good still, Giteau has had enough time at 12 to prove that he isn't anywhere near Timmys standard and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) could get if he keeps in the same position.

 

[Spook]

Horan didnt do too badly at 10 did he? he was only replacing an injured larkham as i recall. could be wrong.

I don't think Larkham had been tried at fly half yet? I could also be wrong.

 

[Ash]

I don't think Larkham had been tried at fly half yet? I could also be wrong.

I think it happened twice - the first time he was tried there by Smith(?) for a few games, and later on he played a game or two there because the other flyhalves were injured. Could be wrong too.

 

[naza]

Horan didnt do too badly at 10 did he? he was only replacing an injured larkham as i recall. could be wrong.

I don't think Larkham had been tried at fly half yet? I could also be wrong.

Horan was 10 for a short while with Jimmy Holbeck at 12. David Knox was either injured or had worn out his welcome with his defence optional attitude.

Smith picked 2 backs on the bench for the '97 MCG Bledisloe with Larkham covering flyhalf. Horan got injured, Larkham came off the bench, played most of the 2nd half and put a high bomb into the corner for Jason Little to score. He showed a lot of class and poise and we won the 2nd half of the game. But Macqueen got all the credit for Larkham coverting to 5/8th.

The game is on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayX9jY0l18Q&feature=related). Don't watch it unless you want to see Ed Morrison rape us.

 

[Pfitzy]

If I was Ed, I'd have raped us just for walking out in those Godawful Reebok shirts.

Larkham was primarily a fullback at the Brumbies and pretty much established himself with the 76-0 over England in 98...

 

[junior]

The years 1997 & 1999 are a good example of what can be done with a lot of hard work & discipline.

And a new coach