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Shute Shield 2017

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wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
^^^^^^Scrums are their Achilles heel.
Refs haven't been shy at dishing out yellows at scrum time in the last few weeks,.
Last week he cardedd wicks props in consecutive scrums!


And even if we tend to come out on top in the scrum, I really dislike the fact that games can be won and lost like this. I have said it before, and will keep believing, the scrum should just be a way of restarting the game after a minor infringement. Okay, a scrum close to the try line has always been a potential attacking weapon, but I would be happy to see no pushover tries ever again.
 

Lost

Ted Fahey (11)
Hard to imagine that there would have been too much technology required to catch this. Open eyes and mind would have been enough

Apparently Angus Gardner thought that this was a 'good tackle'?!? Any decent referee would have recognised that this was a blatant piece of foul play and given the Norths player a red card. This tackle probably would have received a high grading, and based on recent judiciary rulings, resulted in a suspension in the order of 10-14 weeks. But because the referee was incompetent, the Norths player remained on the field, and of course will be eligible to play the rest of the finals series - while the Souths halfback was knocked senseless and had to leave the field. So much for maintaining player safety!![/quote]


Seems like the clean up process is underway. There was a fairly lengthy discussion on the Shute Shield forum on Facebook. It has now been taken down.

"Nothing to see here move along"
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
IMO, the scrum is the essential fabric in the game that differentiates rugby from rugby league. If it just becomes a restart, there is no need for props and the game changes dramatically.
I have always enjoyed the fact that there are different attacking platforms that teams have to learn to defend.
I also believe that the refereeing approach to local rugby to reward the dominant scrum has encouraged teams to have dominant scrums and as a consequence, our elite teams are benefitting from better performances at the scrum eg RWC 2015.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
We got along fine for many years with just a normal restart, mate.


The "essential fabric" that differentiates our game is what happens after a tackle. In the other code, there is a play-the-ball. That started life as a two man scrum, by the way.


In our game we have a contest for possession. That is the big difference.


The evolution of the scrum from what it used to be, in our game, to what it is now, is not of the essence of rugby. If it is, rugby is only played at the elite level. It is not played at lower levels and amongst juniors, because below the elite level the scrum is just a restart.


Are you sure you really believe this?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
IMO, the scrum is the essential fabric in the game that differentiates rugby from rugby league. If it just becomes a restart, there is no need for props and the game changes dramatically.
I have always enjoyed the fact that there are different attacking platforms that teams have to learn to defend.
I also believe that the refereeing approach to local rugby to reward the dominant scrum has encouraged teams to have dominant scrums and as a consequence, our elite teams are benefitting from better performances at the scrum eg RWC 2015.
There's a middle ground.
A dominant scrum should be rewarded, but it shouldn't decide the outcome.
As I previously posted, wicks had a prop carded, his replacement came on,and was immediately carded.
I don't see that's a reasonable outcome.
Clubs will start fielding pot plants that will just dawdle to each set piece, no upside for elite teams in that scenario.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
IMO, the scrum is the essential fabric in the game that differentiates rugby from rugby league. If it just becomes a restart, there is no need for props and the game changes dramatically.
I have always enjoyed the fact that there are different attacking platforms that teams have to learn to defend.
I also believe that the refereeing approach to local rugby to reward the dominant scrum has encouraged teams to have dominant scrums and as a consequence, our elite teams are benefitting from better performances at the scrum eg RWC 2015.

Love the srums to - need more of them
 

Done that

Ron Walden (29)
re#1823
Wamberal are you serious, or just having a laugh?
Scrums are an essential part of the complex game of Rugby, & an
opportunity for a team to demonstrate sublime skills in it's execution.
A dominant scrum obviously can influence the outcome of a game, but there
are many games won by a team whose scrum is being dominated , but
who themselves are dominant in some other aspect of the game.
No pushovers, no contest between packs ,& just a means of restarting a game, is just what you see in the hilarious examples of what is called a scrum in Rugby League!
That is what you are suggesting.
How sad is it to watch a Rugby match where , for whatever reason , there are uncontested scrums.
That effectively is the model you're suggesting Rugby should adopt.

And while we're at it, how about uncontested lineouts ?
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Look, mate, if you enjoyed the spectacle of that idiot Poite destroying our chances because the other side was better at cheating than us, and he was not able to realise it, fine. And there have been many, many other examples.

The vast majority of our actual and potential audience for the game just do not want this. Former Test greats have been calling for reform. Northern Hemisphere greats, by the way.


Fortunately the game's governing body seems to understand this, even if you don't.

Another couple of points, if I may. Firstly, I am not calling for uncontested scrums. What I am in favour of is returning the scrum to the status that it had until relatively recently. A bit like a lineout, now that you mention lineouts. The side putting the ball in has an advantage, and should be able to clear the ball cleanly and quickly if they want to. Frankly, I believe the game would be a far better spectacle of teams that win the ball in either should be required to use it. You know, give it to the backs. Radical, eh?


Secondly, I would bet that none of the current crop of match officials has ever put his head into a scrum in his life. And yet they are empowered with the right to make arbitrary and unskilled decisions in an area of the game where chicanery and skulduggery are par for the course. And there is no use of technology, even though we know that overhead shots can reveal a lot. (I am not suggesting the use of technology like this, because it could only be made available at a few venues, but the point is valid, and supports my basic thesis that the game has outgrown the "dominant" scrum).


And the result can be yellow cards and worse for the side being "dominated". Where else in the game does the side being "dominated" lose players in such an ad hoc fashion?


And I could go on and on and on and on about the amount of time wasted with resets. This age is an age of instant gratification. Imagine what the first time viewer thinks when he/she watches a few of those.
 

Wood Rat

Alfred Walker (16)
IMG_5168.PNG
 

Wood Rat

Alfred Walker (16)
and on another note. I just spoke to a hire car driver that has had to knock back clients (several) that wanted to go to Rat Park on Saturday.
 

PhilthyRat

Frank Row (1)
and on another note. I just spoke to a hire car driver that has had to knock back clients (several) that wanted to go to Rat Park on Saturday.
For those that haven't been to Rat Park recently the front car park closest to Pittwater Road is closed due to works being done for the new B-Line bus service. The grass area off Walsh Street will be open for parking for $5 however based on the last Manly game this will probably fill up - so public transport should be considered.
#carntherats


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

paul martin

Ted Fahey (11)
Please spare us the agony of the TMO in Shute Shield matches. One of the best things about club rugby is the absence of the TMO. And you know what? I reckon the accuracy of decisions overall is probably a fairly similar percentage. Without boring us to death with 20 replays.


As for scrums - I like them! But...I don't like endless resets (fast forward comes in handy) and I don't like to see them used to milk a penalty. Milking penalties has been banned in other parts of the game why are scrums any different?
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Because, well, it is impossible to officiate with any degree of accuracy?


I would defy anybody except the actual players who are in the scrum to know for sure what happened when the scrum collapsed, and even they would genuinely disagree with each other a lot of the time, even with the best of intentions. Indeed, the cause for any given incident is probably pretty bloody complex.


Good luck trying to work out who is milking, who just made a mistake, who genuinely slipped, and on and bloody on. And on.


Nice idea, but cannot be done.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Because, well, it is impossible to officiate with any degree of accuracy?


I would defy anybody except the actual players who are in the scrum to know for sure what happened when the scrum collapsed, and even they would genuinely disagree with each other a lot of the time, even with the best of intentions. Indeed, the cause for any given incident is probably pretty bloody complex.


Good luck trying to work out who is milking, who just made a mistake, who genuinely slipped, and on and bloody on. And on.


Nice idea, but cannot be done.

Sat next to a world cup ref that most of you would no - he openly said we often have no idea but people don't want to watch scrums so need to make judgement calls
 
T

TOCC

Guest
The vast majority of our actual and potential audience for the game just do not want this. Former Test greats have been calling for reform. Northern Hemisphere greats, by the way.


which northern hemisphere greats exactly?

And what happens when scrums are depowered, what happens to the props, do they then shift and begin to select forwards who are leaner, faster and fitter. Coaches now have 3 players who can focus on speed rather then power, they're now using less energy in the scum, covering more ground in the match, making more tackles and closing more gaps. Lets see what 3 extra flankers in the defensive line does to the game and then start talking about what fans actually want..
 

Done that

Ron Walden (29)
Because, well, it is impossible to officiate with any degree of accuracy?


I would defy anybody except the actual players who are in the scrum to know for sure what happened when the scrum collapsed, and even they would genuinely disagree with each other a lot of the time, even with the best of intentions. Indeed, the cause for any given incident is probably pretty bloody complex.


Good luck trying to work out who is milking, who just made a mistake, who genuinely slipped, and on and bloody on. And on.


Nice idea, but cannot be done.

Totally disagree with your opinions & knowledge of scrums.
 
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