Shute Shield 2017

[I like to watch]

Re: Quick Hands post #113 on the Waratah 2018 thread.

I know players and I am a long time supporter and yes there are rumblings about the culture change at the club, but something has to change, I'm sure you like me are pretty sick of seeing my team loose the last three or four games straight, and bow out of the finals with our tails between our legs. If Colman can get us deeper into the finals using fresh reserves then so be it.(blame Uni for starting that particular arms race several years ago) Success has to start somewhere, if that means bringing in some older hands to create a stronger club in the future, then so be it. It may weaken 2nds but they are still in finals striking range, and 3rds are top of their table.and Turtle is doing a great job to!!.ho-hum time for another beer.

You realise they were one game from the GF last year, and lost one game up till then by more than 7?
And bringing in +30 yo's will not build strength for the future.

They are playing Easts this week, who were always pretty strong in lower grades,and making up the numbers in 1's.
They are stone motherless last in 4's, 8th in 3's,8th in 2's & 10th in 1's
So having massive depth in 1's last year,which resulted in their 2's being dominant minor premiers has paid negative dividends this year.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You realise they were one game from the GF last year, and lost one game up till then by more than 7?
And bringing in +30 yo's will not build strength for the future.

They are playing Easts this week, who were always pretty strong in lower grades,and making up the numbers in 1's.
They are stone motherless last in 4's, 8th in 3's,8th in 2's & 10th in 1's
So having massive depth in 1's last year,which resulted in their 2's being dominant minor premiers has paid negative dividends this year.

Are you linking DC to Easts lower grade performance this year?

 

[Quick Hands]

Are you linking DC to Easts lower grade performance this year?

Often the legacy of a coach is what happens the year after they leave. (Not always I would say, but mostly).

 

[Quick Hands]

Re: Quick Hands post #113 on the Waratah 2018 thread.

I know players and I am a long time supporter and yes there are rumblings about the culture change at the club, but something has to change, I'm sure you like me are pretty sick of seeing my team loose the last three or four games straight, and bow out of the finals with our tails between our legs. If Colman can get us deeper into the finals using fresh reserves then so be it.(blame Uni for starting that particular arms race several years ago) Success has to start somewhere, if that means bringing in some older hands to create a stronger club in the future, then so be it. It may weaken 2nds but they are still in finals striking range, and 3rds are top of their table.and Turtle is doing a great job to!!.ho-hum time for another beer.

Well, Warringah lost the semi final last year in firsts (3v4 playoff) 22-25 to eventual premiers Norths, 3 tries all, just down to goal-kicking - hardly bowing out with your tail between your legs (your choice of words).

Bottom line is though, if you are happy with the direction of the club and think that things are better than last year, then you certainly don't have to justify that to me or anyone else.

I'll admit to not being happy at the coaching change at Manly in the off-season as I thought that Turtle deserved another year. I'm happy to admit that results have proven that Brian Melrose has done an excellent job and the team are doing very well - we've lost to Warringah who thoroughly deserved the win that day, but there was only a point in it so I'm not particularly upset by it.

I'm happy to be proven wrong if my team go better.

EDIT: 3rds made the grand final last year at Warringah. And as a matter of philosphy, I'm against fresh reserves at grade and colts.

 

[I like to watch]

Are you linking DC to Easts lower grade performance this year?

Absolutely.
When the coach brings in a stack of ring ins,invariably they don't hang around when he moves on.
So after he has alienated the lower graders, this is what you end up with the following year.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Absolutely.
When the coach brings in a stack of ring ins,invariably they don't hang around when he moves on.
So after he has alienated the lower graders, this is what you end up with the following year.

Thats what I feared you meant

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Often the legacy of a coach is what happens the year after they leave. (Not always I would say, but mostly).

Yep.
I will no doubt sound like an apologist but I think this is a symptom of the fact that we can't work out if the game is "open" (professional at whatever levels people can find money to pay players) or amateur and therefore about the club culture.
Have not had sufficient direct involvement in club rugby in the professional era to know what the answer is - my direct involvement all took place in the era when it was only about culture!!

 

[I like to watch]

^^^^^the majority of players at SS level are amateurs.Most if they receive anything, receive match payments.
But the advent of pro coaches has brought about this crazy environment where some pro coaches think players can be treated like Rugby is their livelihood, when it clearly isn't.

Having 4 fresh reserves, and giving some of them less than 10 minutes of Rugby for the week,is outrageously selfish IMO.
Last week v Wicks one Rats fresh reserve never got on.
Who gets better or fitter sitting on a bench?

 

[amirite]

Having 4 fresh reserves, and giving some of them less than 10 minutes of Rugby for the week,is outrageously selfish IMO.
Last week v Wicks one Rats fresh reserve never got on.
Who gets better or fitter sitting on a bench?

Whilst I've definitely seen programs where fresh subs have played little minutes and been rightfully pissed off, I've also met plenty of guys who don't mind that role (some even enjoy it!).

Some guys would genuinely rather player 20 (or even 10) minutes of 1st grade than 80 of 2nds with a chance of 10 of 1sts anyway.

It's not my psyche, but there's plenty of them out there.

I think it all comes down to context, which is case by case.

 

[I like to watch]

I agree some players are happy with that role, but most are not.
I think in some limited scenarios it's fine, but generally I'm against it.
and it's poor for club culture.

 

[Dave Beat]

I'm not a fan of Fresh Reserves - it is about players playing rugby.
It would be an easy rule to implement - no fresh reserves.
If clubs want to run players out for 5 minutes in a lower grade - so be it with only 8 reserves allowed in each grade it would make the lower grades very skinny if they opted to try this.

 

[Dave Beat]

Player point - given we are in round 14 itand what coach said in an earlier post is it not about time we see the correct player points recorded, and all fresh reserves shown.

http://nswpremresults.fusesport.com/game.asp?gameid=142616&compid=290197&seasonid=433

For reference, te above game is not the one i am referring to.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I'm not a fan of Fresh Reserves - it is about players playing rugby.
It would be an easy rule to implement - no fresh reserves.
If clubs want to run players out for 5 minutes in a lower grade - so be it with only 8 reserves allowed in each grade it would make the lower grades very skinny if they opted to try this.

IMO it would be very difficult to implement. Firstly 4th Grade and Colts 3 will always need them. Secondly many finals team will need fresh reserves. Thirdly it has the potential to require clubs to make injured players back up. Finally it is significant variation to the Laws of Rugby which I believe the Union would be reluctant to do.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

IMO it would be very difficult to implement. Firstly 4th Grade and Colts 3 will always need them. Secondly many finals team will need fresh reserves. Thirdly it has the potential to require clubs to make injured players back up. Finally it is significant variation to the Laws of Rugby which I believe the Union would be reluctant to do.

It worked for quite a few decades. I've seen blokes go from 3rds to 1sts in a day.
Pretty sure you'd get dispensation from world rugby for such a rule.

 

[I like to watch]

I don't think either 4's or colts 3's have PP do they?
Secondly, in terms of finals,it's simple to have a rule that fresh reserves points aren't applicable if there is no lower grade fixture.

No change of rule requires a club to ignore their duty of care.

 

[Dave Beat]

Agree with finals.
No i don't think 4's and 3s colts have player points.

 

[the coach]

3rd and 4th grade and colts3 don't have player points but there are some restrictions on who can play in those teams.
7.3.2.1 Aust schoolboys are not eligible for colts3
7.4.1 Test, Super and Heineken cup can only play 1st or 2nd grade
7.4.1 Players with current Super contracts can only play 1st grade

Dispensations may be sought for the above --- wouldn't be rugby otherwise

 

[the coach]

One advantage of fresh reserves is the opportunity it gives to older players to keep playing and pass on their experience to the younger guys. For example, I doubt Adam Freier, Pat Phibbs and Stephen Hoiles would still be playing at the Wicks if they couldn't be replaced by fresh reserves or come off the bench as fresh reserves themselves. Player welfare is another issue: is it in a player's best interest to play a full lower grade game and then potentially have to replace an injured player just after the start of the next grade? The lack of fresh reserves is more likely to result in players staying on the field with an injury IMO.

 

[amirite]

I agree with the coach and I like to watch, it's only a good thing in specific circumstances. No point parking a 21yo on the pine when he could be playing 2nds.

However, the fact is playing rugby, cooling down, then coming on for a cheeky 20 minutes increases your injury risk by a huge margin (or more than 20 if there's an injury!). Even if you warm up properly for your 2nd go, the risk is still far higher and the science on this is pretty conclusive.

 

[AussieDominance]

At the start of the year Fresh Reserves helped Gordon get blokes game time that wouldn't have had game time in the lower grades. If we didn't have 5 or 6 from 1st to 3rd grade we would have had about 25 in our 6th grade squad.