Shute Shield 2016

[John S]

True, but it can't be fully discounted and ignored.

 

[the coach]

The same Michael Hooper and Rob Horne that made their Super Rugby debut their first year out of high school?

OK, but they both played plenty of club rugby also didn't they?
What rugby would they have been playing if the SS wasn't available?

 

[Train Without a Station]

OK, but they both played plenty of club rugby also didn't they?
What rugby would they have been playing if the SS wasn't available?

Plenty? Was Michael Hooper ever not selected for a Super Rugby game after 2010? At best he would have played a bit in 2010 around his Super Rugby games and Under 20s RWC and some after the 2011 Super Rugby season.

Likewise Rob Horne. How many times has he not been selected for the Waratahs? He's had a lot of injuries and still amassed 88 games across 9 seasons. Again more so like some after the Super Rugby season.

I'd imagine just like the NRL and the AFL do, they would have just played whatever the highest level available is rather than not play at all...

 

[Dave Beat]

OK, but they both played plenty of club rugby also didn't they?
What rugby would they have been playing if the SS wasn't available?

Hooper, bit like George Smith, who played grass roots rugby with Manly, and their grass roots coaches through the years take full credit for what they have achieved don't get any thanks from the ARU - hmmm.

Both got selected very early on and i believe reached 20 test caps before he reached his current 16 Marlin caps. But he is still seen frequently watching his mates.

Premier Clubs can provide / support a pathway.

Also shouldnt be missed - Premier Clubs also provide a pathway to the 7's

 

[Eyes and Ears]

OK, but they both played plenty of club rugby also didn't they?
What rugby would they have been playing if the SS wasn't available?

Not really. They have been in super rugby teams, injured or playing age reps. I think Horne has played less than Hooper's 16 games.

Hooper played for Brumbies first year out of school. Horne had a number of hamstring injuries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Train Without a Station]

Hardly strengthens the Shute Shield's argument when proponents repeatedly falsely claim development rights on players who basically never played Shute Shield.

As Dave and Eyes and Ears noted, Hooper and Horne are players that were developed by junior rugby, and junior representative programs.

Dave, on your point about 7s. I think that is extremely relevant. Club Rugby is developing a number of Aus 7s players. Seems to be increasingly more who are joining the program after a couple of years of club rugby.

 

[I like to watch]

No one has ever been developed by jnr rep programs to date.
Hooper is a good point.
He missed his final year of School Rugby due to injury.and so only played jnr reps in yr 11.
Which involved literally a handful of games.
He signed a pro contract whilst still injured in yr 12.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No one has ever been developed by jnr rep programs to date.
Hooper is a good point.
He missed his final year of School Rugby due to injury.and so only played jnr reps in yr 11.
Which involved literally a handful of games.
He signed a pro contract whilst still injured in yr 12.

Saying no player is developed by junior rep programs is the same as playing Shute Shield doesn't develop players any more than Subbies does.

Playing and training with better players, and better coaches, against better coached players improves players.

Michael Hooper missed Year 12 due to injury. But he also played for NSW Under 16s and made the 2007 Aus U16 merit team. Along with a few other future Super Rugby players (Paul Alo-Emile, Luke Jones, Jarrad Butler, Tom Kingston).

 

[I like to watch]

I said to up till now, as School reps at both Associatin & state level are carnivals with a short prep prior.
No it's not the same, playing 2-3 games for your association,then 2-3 games ( or part ther of) for your state doesn't compare to a full pre season & 20 weeks of training in most cases of 5-6 sessions a week.
How much development do you get by being nominated in a merit team?
Merit teams do not train or play.

 

[Train Without a Station]

It's more so a comment on what he had done prior to be nominated in essentially an Australian U16 XV.

 

[I like to watch]

do you know what he did prior to being nominated?
He played in an uncompetitive School side in a comp that went for 5-6 games.
Played 1/2 day in a trial to be selected for ISA , then 2-3 games(or part there of)
Before playing another 2-3 games(or part there of) for NSW.

He also played with the Manly Roos in a season that went for months not weeks,playing with Tom Kingston,Sam Lane & 3 or 4 current SS players, in a very competitive comp.

It's the club system not an ARU development program that developed his skills.

 

[Train Without a Station]

And how many other players from this very competitive competition graduated to rep teams and most importantly, Super Rugby?

But regardless the term club system is used interchangeably.

Many like to use it to describe Shute Shield. You are using it to describe Junior Rugby.

 

[I like to watch]

Off the top of my head, Luke Jones(schoolmate of Hooper),Stirzaker,Volavola
I'm sure there are more....
It'scertainly not the ARU pathway is it?

 

[Dave Beat]

No one has ever been developed by jnr rep programs to date.
Hooper is a good point.
He missed his final year of School Rugby due to injury.and so only played jnr reps in yr 11.
Which involved literally a handful of games.
He signed a pro contract whilst still injured in yr 12.

AFL tried Carmichael Hunt & Izzy on a rep program type system and it was a clusterfuck - players generally come through the club system at some point, or have successfully changed codes.

Michael Hooper missed Year 12 due to injury. But he also played for NSW Under 16s and made the 2007 Aus U16 merit team. Along with a few other future Super Rugby players (Paul Alo-Emile, Luke Jones, Jarrad Butler, Tom Kingston).

Where did they play there junior rugby

And how many other players from this very competitive competition graduated to rep teams and most importantly, Super Rugby?
But regardless the term club system is used interchangeably.
Many like to use it to describe Shute Shield. You are using it to describe Junior Rugby.

That was a very special age group Hooper / Luke Jones / Kingston / Volovola (I think was there) / BJ (7 squad) / Lane, and I'm sure i have missed some.


I believe this sort of talent is still around all over the place, but, distractions, focus, girls, and "dads time" let's it unfortunately drift by. I say dad's time - so the camps that are now running have 2 players in that gun era helping Lane (has played super rugby) & DA.

 

[Tah and feathered]

I read an interesting article the other day about David Horwitz which credited his good form in the Tahs first 2 games this year with the fact that he's been training with the Tahs for the last 2 years. No credit given to the fact that he's been playing SS during that time or to his coaches at the Wicks. What would he have been doing if the SS didn't exist? The same can be said for the likes of Michael Hooper, Rob Horne, Dean Mumm, Paddy Ryan etc. They may have been annointed at an early age but the SS
deserves some credit for their development surely.

Rob Horne played a full season of Colts or close to it and maye some grade games? as did Paddy Ryan and Dean Mumm broke his ankle around the time he should have been playing colts?

 

[the coach]

We can argue the technicalities of individual cases until we're blue in the face, but anyone who thinks super rugby and the wobblies don't rely on vibrant and strong senior club competitions in Sydney and Brisbane in particular is living in the same fairyland as the ARU -- IMO

 

[Baggy Jersey]

ARU had a period where they relied on a wunderkind or League converts, Waratahs have an increasing reliance on NZ for coach/players. Vibrant comp in Syd and Bris may be be cheaper alternative

 

[Dave Beat]

ARU had a period where they relied on a wunderkind or League converts, Waratahs have an increasing reliance on NZ for coach/players. Vibrant comp in Syd and Bris may be be cheaper alternative

And create growth and opportunities so we grow out of having only 3 starting halves out of 5.

 

[the coach]

Anyone know how the system works in NZ?
I was working there for 12 months a few years ago and the message from my work colleagues was that there was no "elite" pampering of young guys -- they had to earn their positions in super rugby by playing in local clubs and then the ABs. Not sure if that's correct, but that's what I was told. Whatever they do it seems to work fairly well.

 

[AussieDominance]

Luke Jones is Gordon Junior Dave. Yes Kingston is a Manly Junior.