Shute Shield 2014

[stonecutter]

It should be a rep team and you need to earn selection, as I said above;
imagine the Tahs selecting 2 players from each SS team, or,
the Wobs having to select 6 players from each Soup team.

Not aware of all clubs balance sheets, or the required funding at this stage.

If all clubs are supporting it and we are winning and playing entertaining rugby it will garner more interest, if we are getting our arses spanked it could have the opposite effect. It should be best players being selected.

Dave,
Be careful for what you wish for. I might be a touch underwhelmed by the apparent lack of planning involved but I don't doubt the intention of some who don't like that the SS clubs still have some say in the running of the game.
I'll be very surprised if there is still any club rugby as we know it in 5 years if this thing gets off the ground. No Manly, no Rats, No Gordon, just a bunch of quasi demographic representative teams who have cannibalised the SS clubs of their best talent. As the upper echelons of rugby have decided that schoolboy rugby is the proving ground for Wallaby selection these new entities will become bastions of privilege that the late blooming journeyman players won't ever see (the Scott Fardy's of the game will be lost forever). Schoolboy starlets will be directed straight to a 3t franchise and never see the inside of a district rugby club in their careers until they burn out their brand at 22 and have to move off shore to capitalise on their currency.
In my opinion, if the clubs are to survive it's in their best interest (although hard to swallow) to ensure equal representation as it will ultimately lead to a stronger SS competition by evening the talent spread across the clubs. Perhaps each squad could be allowed 2 or 3 players from clubs outside of their catchment zone to provide opportunities to the presently better off clubs.
If left as "representative" teams the prophecy will become self fulfilling as better players migrate unabated to the perceived heavyweights and the SS comp becomes a 4 or 5 team entity anyway. Under the current status it is already seen by many as a one team comp.
Net result either way is a weakened power base for the clubs to bargain from and eventually a complete loss of identity as the Rams or Rays become the new identity that the players relate to. IMHO 3T rugby opportunities isn't the greatest issue facing the game, it's the uninspiring lack of common sense leadership from the ARU.

 

[Tomikin]

Dave,
Be careful for what you wish for. I might be a touch underwhelmed by the apparent lack of planning involved but I don't doubt the intention of some who don't like that the SS clubs still have some say in the running of the game.
I'll be very surprised if there is still any club rugby as we know it in 5 years if this thing gets off the ground. No Manly, no Rats, No Gordon, just a bunch of quasi demographic representative teams who have cannibalised the SS clubs of their best talent. As the upper echelons of rugby have decided that schoolboy rugby is the proving ground for Wallaby selection these new entities will become bastions of privilege that the late blooming journeyman players won't ever see (the Scott Fardy's of the game will be lost forever). Schoolboy starlets will be directed straight to a 3t franchise and never see the inside of a district rugby club in their careers until they burn out their brand at 22 and have to move off shore to capitalise on their currency.
In my opinion, if the clubs are to survive it's in their best interest (although hard to swallow) to ensure equal representation as it will ultimately lead to a stronger SS competition by evening the talent spread across the clubs. Perhaps each squad could be allowed 2 or 3 players from clubs outside of their catchment zone to provide opportunities to the presently better off clubs.
If left as "representative" teams the prophecy will become self fulfilling as better players migrate unabated to the perceived heavyweights and the SS comp becomes a 4 or 5 team entity anyway. Under the current status it is already seen by many as a one team comp.
Net result either way is a weakened power base for the clubs to bargain from and eventually a complete loss of identity as the Rams or Rays become the new identity that the players relate to. IMHO 3T rugby opportunities isn't the greatest issue facing the game, it's the uninspiring lack of common sense leadership from the ARU.

Jesus that's negative, maybe they need to do it the other way select the 3T teams first then allocate the players back to a club via a draft (obviously with preference for someone whos played all their rugby at at a single club..

Keeps the best players been selected but the level playing field fair..And you don't like your allocation then there's someone else who will gladly take your place in the 3T team..

 

[Dave Beat]

Dave,
Be careful for what you wish for. I might be a touch underwhelmed by the apparent lack of planning involved but I don't doubt the intention of some who don't like that the SS clubs still have some say in the running of the game.
I'll be very surprised if there is still any club rugby as we know it in 5 years if this thing gets off the ground. No Manly, no Rats, No Gordon, just a bunch of quasi demographic representative teams who have cannibalised the SS clubs of their best talent. As the upper echelons of rugby have decided that schoolboy rugby is the proving ground for Wallaby selection these new entities will become bastions of privilege that the late blooming journeyman players won't ever see (the Scott Fardy's of the game will be lost forever). Schoolboy starlets will be directed straight to a 3t franchise and never see the inside of a district rugby club in their careers until they burn out their brand at 22 and have to move off shore to capitalise on their currency.
In my opinion, if the clubs are to survive it's in their best interest (although hard to swallow) to ensure equal representation as it will ultimately lead to a stronger SS competition by evening the talent spread across the clubs. Perhaps each squad could be allowed 2 or 3 players from clubs outside of their catchment zone to provide opportunities to the presently better off clubs.
If left as "representative" teams the prophecy will become self fulfilling as better players migrate unabated to the perceived heavyweights and the SS comp becomes a 4 or 5 team entity anyway. Under the current status it is already seen by many as a one team comp.
Net result either way is a weakened power base for the clubs to bargain from and eventually a complete loss of identity as the Rams or Rays become the new identity that the players relate to. IMHO 3T rugby opportunities isn't the greatest issue facing the game, it's the uninspiring lack of common sense leadership from the ARU.

The Shute Sheild goes from Apr to Aug it is one comp competing against Subbies, and Super. All clubs should be focusing on that or they should step aside. It's also selection for;
Then the NRC starts in Aug and the teams are selected on form.

If you are a good enough player playing for Penrith, or even Dundas Valley you get picked. Just because you play for a certain club doesn't mean you get selected so why would players gravitate?

Hard work and commitment warrants reward and selection, not pitching a tent in a different area so as to make a team.

We should be going all out to have the best players playing an attractive style of rugby - the NRL & AFL season would have finished so this is an opportunity to showcase our game.

I also don't think Uni should stand alone, but we shouldn't deny any club that meets the criteria, and has done all the right things / so that is a tough one. We need to weigh up the pros and cons over the long term, and other alternatives.

 

[lily]

I think your second paragraph demonstrates a little bit of naivety Dave. Or maybe your an optimist. Have a good day mate.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think your second paragraph demonstrates a little bit of naivety Dave. Or maybe your an optimist. Have a good day mate.

All I'm saying is the best players should be picked.

 

[the coach]

What i dont understand is how all these rugby clubs have no money after most used to have licensed clubs/pokies.

You've answered your own question: they "used to have licenced clubs". They no longer have them because they went broke. In the Wicks case the licenced club was actually borrowing money from the rugby trust fund. The cost of running a SS club for 4 grades and 3 colts is anywhere from $500k to $1m per year which has to cover jumpers etc, ground hire, player and coach payments (if applicable) etc which is financed from gate receipts and sponsorship. With the advent of 3T and the absence of S15 players its only going to become more difficult to attract sponsors and I suspect gate receipts will continue to decline as they have been over the last 10 years. Don't forget the SS competes directly with S15 both live Waratah matches and replays of all S15 games on Foxtel. There's only so much money to go around and the ARU and NSWRU have done bugger all to try to increase the market share.

 

[Dave Beat]

You've answered your own question: they "used to have licenced clubs". They no longer have them because they went broke. In the Wicks case the licenced club was actually borrowing money from the rugby trust fund. The cost of running a SS club for 4 grades and 3 colts is anywhere from $500k to $1m per year which has to cover jumpers etc, ground hire, player and coach payments (if applicable) etc which is financed from gate receipts and sponsorship. With the advent of 3T and the absence of S15 players its only going to become more difficult to attract sponsors and I suspect gate receipts will continue to decline as they have been over the last 10 years. Don't forget the SS competes directly with S15 both live Waratah matches and replays of all S15 games on Foxtel. There's only so much money to go around and the ARU and NSWRU have done bugger all to try to increase the market share.

Spot on coach, I think we may only have one crack at this.
I'd want to see it work.
It appears WA / VIC / ACT will field one 3T team and it will be strongly supported by their respective Soup team players they employ, and the fan base.
NSW & QLD are creating new entities, I definately don't want to detract from other Shute Clubs i think all clubs need to be in it together. But some clubs can bring far more to the table than others - financially, supporters, structure. We need to grow off this and build - by simply dividing by the number of Shute Teams so it is equal quota does not make sense (to me at least).

 

[Rugby Central]

As the upper echelons of rugby have decided that schoolboy rugby is the proving ground for Wallaby selection these new entities will become bastions of privilege that the late blooming journeyman players won't ever see (the Scott Fardy's of the game will be lost forever). Schoolboy starlets will be directed straight to a 3t franchise and never see the inside of a district rugby club in their careers until they burn out their brand at 22 and have to move off shore to capitalise on their currency.

Just a question, with the academies gone and the 3T clubs with not enough money to pay full time salaries, what are these starlets going to do between April and August? Seriously? If you think Clubs are going to die becasue of this then you have absolutely no faith in Clubs and pollyanna optimisim regarding the talent in the schools. I don't care how good an Australian School boy is, put him straight into 3T after 6 months of doing nothing and the kid will be hospitalised - career over.

What you suggest will only come to pass if 3T becomes a full year 12 team competition. That scenario is unaffordable even over the next decade or more.

Argue the merits of quotas or rep selection for the joint ventures but if Clubs die because of this then they only have themselves to blame.

Just a small issue for the Clubs, it takes a certain kind of talent to lose money when you have poker machines. I think there are bigger problems for Clubs like that than any new competition that starts AFTER the Club season is over.

 

[the coach]

Just a question, with the academies gone and the 3T clubs with not enough money to pay full time salaries, what are these starlets going to do between April and August? Seriously? If you think Clubs are going to die becasue of this then you have absolutely no faith in Clubs and pollyanna optimisim regarding the talent in the schools. I don't care how good an Australian School boy is, put him straight into 3T after 6 months of doing nothing and the kid will be hospitalised - career over.

What you suggest will only come to pass if 3T becomes a full year 12 team competition. That scenario is unaffordable even over the next decade or more.

Argue the merits of quotas or rep selection for the joint ventures but if Clubs die because of this then they only have themselves to blame.

Just a small issue for the Clubs, it takes a certain kind of talent to lose money when you have poker machines. I think there are bigger problems for Clubs like that than any new competition that starts AFTER the Club season is over.

Have you forgotten that players like Kurtley Beale and James O'Connor went straight from school to S15. O'Connor played his first ever game of club rugby for West Harbour this year.

Poker machines only make money if people play them and people only play them if they are actually in the club.

Many clubs are struggling financially now.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^ Not just the Rugby Clubs Licenced Clubs that are struggling. Plenty of bowlo's and RSL's are going under/have gone under in recent times.

I have been told by a snout that those remaining community clubs are being heavily sponsored by a Poker Machine Palace - Mounties, Panthers, Souths Juniors Rooty Hill RSL etc. These super clubs have apparently relocated the majority of the bowlo's poker machines to their barns, while the licence for the machine remains in the name of <insert bowling club name>.

Meanwhile the smaller sporting clubs with 10 or so machines are really struggling to remain liquid in the entertainment/gambling market.

 

[the coach]

^^^^ Not just the Rugby Clubs Licenced Clubs that are struggling. Plenty of bowlo's and RSL's are going under/have gone under in recent times.

I have been told by a snout that those remaining community clubs are being heavily sponsored by a Poker Machine Palace - Mounties, Panthers, Souths Juniors Rooty Hill RSL etc. These super clubs have apparently relocated the majority of the bowlo's poker machines to their barns, while the licence for the machine remains in the name of <insert bowling club name>.

Meanwhile the smaller sporting clubs with 10 or so machines are really struggling to remain liquid in the entertainment/gambling market.

Even some of the league's clubs have had to re-invent themselves and not rely on their traditional links to the NRL teams to broaden their appeal and attract members and punters. When I grew up in the St George area there was a waiting list of several years to join the club but now you can just basically join at the door and of course the visitor rules have also been relaxed. Pokies in the pubs has really impacted on the clubs.

Sorry, I'm getting off topic!

 

[Crashy]

Isnt St George leagues club almost broke? I must say these gigantic, cavernous pokie palaces are a blight on society and are really not meant to be what they once represented. But like the Vikings club in the ACT, its its done well, clubs can prosper from it.

 

[Rugby Central]

Have you forgotten that players like Kurtley Beale and James O'Connor went straight from school to S15. O'Connor played his first ever game of club rugby for West Harbour this year.

Poker machines only make money if people play them and people only play them if they are actually in the club.

Many clubs are struggling financially now.

Kurtley Beale was hidden away for a few years and was not up to standard until he started getting regular game time. O'Connor was selected straight up but was getting regular game time. By the way which other players like these two went straight into S15 from schoolboys? Not develpment squads or academies, Aus School boys 1 year to S15 starting player the next. I'm not being rude, I honestly have no idea who has done it and would like to know.

Without the academies to warehouse players and 3T not starting until August, where are the players going to go? Stonecutters assertion that kids would sit around for months doing nothing but training, and be prepared for 3T doesn't make sense.

As for the financial management of Clubs, that's a decision for each board. What I'm talking about is that professionalism has been up and running for 18 years, (longer if you include the shamateurism of the early 90's) Clubs are in the business of supplying a service. A place for people to play rugby and for the community to have a sporting team to support. Many Clubs have focused soley on silverware being a panacea for their financial woes and have missed the bigger picture.

After a lot of hand-wringing, false starts and brain snaps, the ARU is finally doing something. Not only that, they are working around the Club's regular operations in the main. It's a positive development.

Just out of curiosity, what have the Clubs done themselves to elevate themselves to a higher tier of competition. It's not like it was illegal to form a representative competition after the regular season. Or were banned from restructuring the SS so as to turn them into elite clubs.

Clubs held onto their traditions, maintaining 7-9 teams, most of which had no hope of coming close to a 3T quality. Clubs held onto the status quo long after it proved unsustainable. They can't now complain when the ARU finally gets off it's fat, self-entitled arse to do something.

I apologise prefusely because I honestly believe the SS should have been the way to go. Unfortunately there was inertia within the SS so a circuit breaker had to be found. This is happening. There's no point bemoaning the negative effect this will have on Club's. Most are already going backward, I'm not sure how doing everything the same would stop that.

 

[the coach]

Isnt St George leagues club almost broke? I must say these gigantic, cavernous pokie palaces are a blight on society and are really not meant to be what they once represented. But like the Vikings club in the ACT, its its done well, clubs can prosper from it.

Not sure Crashy, I've moved out of the area and don't really take much interest in league these days. But I did visit the club for dinner a couple of years ago and the ballroom which used to host shows with international artists is now a chinese restaurant and most of the bottom floor seemed to be taken up with poker machines.

A shadow of its former self!

 

[Done that]

I have to laugh at people who come on to this site ,& there are some notable examples in this particular thread, & espouse all sorts of theories & comments advising & criticising SS clubs & those
who selflessly give of their time to run them ,regarding the increasing difficulties in which most clubs find themselves over recent years.It is clear from some of these comments that these people
have never been involved in the running of a SS club,or comprehend the problems faced by those charged with the running of these clubs.
The importance of SS clubs, & those in similar competitions ,should not be forgotten nor minimised & their existance taken for granted.
Without these clubs there will be no 3rd tier,Super 15 or Wallaby teams .
Most of us agree that the formation of a 3rd tier competition is desirable, & the energies devoted to it's implementation are admirable.
What a shame then that a little more recognition is not given to some of the increased difficulties that SS clubs, & their counterparts in other areas ,currently & will subsequently experience.
Some increased support by Rugby's governing bodies , & the Rugby fraternity not actively involved in the clubs, would certainly be welcomed ,& perhaps be just as important in the continued
existance & development of Rugby in Australia as a new competition.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Kurtley Beale was hidden away for a few years and was not up to standard until he started getting regular game time. O'Connor was selected straight up but was getting regular game time. By the way which other players like these two went straight into S15 from schoolboys? Not develpment squads or academies, Aus School boys 1 year to S15 starting player the next. I'm not being rude, I honestly have no idea who has done it and would like to know.

Pocock and QC (Quade Cooper) played super rugby first year out. I am pretty sure that Luke Jones did too. I believe CFS is the latest to do so.

 

[Zander]

Kurtley Beale was hidden away for a few years and was not up to standard until he started getting regular game time. O'Connor was selected straight up but was getting regular game time. By the way which other players like these two went straight into S15 from schoolboys? Not develpment squads or academies, Aus School boys 1 year to S15 starting player the next. I'm not being rude, I honestly have no idea who has done it and would like to know.

Beale took the Tahs to the Grand Final in his first year out of school. They would've won too if he didn't get injured.

 

[Rugby Central]

"comprehend the problems faced by those charged with the running of these clubs"

You mean having the best schoolboy players wanting to come to the SS competition over any other. Or is it the fact that regardless of how badly a team performs, they can't get demoted. Or maybe you're talking about the fact SS sponsors have access to the same market year-in year-out because the clubs in the SS can't change. Oh, you mean the dwindling grant received from NSWRU that most of the Clubs in Sydney never got in the first place.

Your right, I have no comprehension of such problems.

I make no pretention that running a Shute Shield Club is easy. What irks me is the constant complaint that any change from the status quo spells death to Club rugby, with absolutely no acknowledgment that there is a massive diversity of Clubs and players outside the SS who are doing it a lot tougher without any of the protections.

From what little information has been provided, there are massive opportunities for SS Clubs. Any change is difficult, but as far as I can see from what we've been told, this will be a major plus for Club Rugby. If anything, it will provide a purpose to the SS shield that has been missing for years without the significant cost to Clubs in trying to create fully professional teams.

SS Should be 3T.....but it's not. That ship has sailed. Arguments about "coulda, shoulda, woulda" are moot. Clubs have the opportunity to devlop more quality players than ever before with the removal of academies. If anything the level of SS should rise.

I'm sorry for obviously offending some of those supporters of the SS Clubs. I'm upset by the focus on the negative. If this opportunity is taken with both hands with SS Clubs taking the lead, I can only see upside from here until World Cup after World Cup.

 

[the coach]

Hey, Rugby Central, come on, fess up --- you're really Bill Pulver in disguise aren't you?

PS: Please don't assume that everyone who cares about the future of club rugby is anti 3T or is being negative, but there's plenty of evidence that the ARU and NSWRU's ongoing lack of support for club rugby has caused many of the issues you've referred to.

 

[Rugby Central]

If I was Bill you wouldn't find me having to post my responses around my workload. You also wouldn't find any interaction during the standard lunch hour of 11am to 3pm

No, I'm someone who is just tired of being told that without SS the world will end. Plus, as a past Subbies administrator who's copped a regular shafting from more than one SS Club, the hypocrisy of how tough it is really rankles.

The point I really wanted to make was, given the lack of information about the comp (I believe you mentioned becasue the idea is not fully formed) the SS Clubs in particular have the chance to take control of the situation and create massive benefits for the game.

There has been a lack of support from the administration, I can't disagree. The problem is there's been ample opportunity to make something of the SS if the effort had been made. Instead, clubs seem to have huddled quietly in ther little communist collective waiting for a corrupt and useless government to tell them what to do.

By now SS should have been a fully professional competition vying for the athletes making their way to AFL and League. Unfortunately this hasn't happened. I see this new competition breathing new life into Club Rugby, but only if they want it.