Shute Shield 2013
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Yeah but given some of the wasteful and inefficient Government expenditures, I don't begrudge a bob or two being directed towards athletic activities.
And on that topic, I want to know why a Middle Harbour Yacht Club boy is helming for Team USA, and Lake Macquarie's own Nathan Outtridge was helming for a Swedish Entrant in the America's Cup. The NZ Government has thrown money behind their campaign (apparently $100m needed for the entire campaign - not all from NZ Taxpayer).
Meanwhile our Gov't gives our Billionaire Lowy $40m+ to bribe officials in FIFA in an abortive Soccer World Cup host campaign.
Yet again the NZ Govt leads the way in responsible public expenditure, and our best sailors are forced to make another mob look good.
And on that topic, I want to know why a Middle Harbour Yacht Club boy is helming for Team USA, and Lake Macquarie's own Nathan Outtridge was helming for a Swedish Entrant in the America's Cup. The NZ Government has thrown money behind their campaign (apparently $100m needed for the entire campaign - not all from NZ Taxpayer).
Meanwhile our Gov't gives our Billionaire Lowy $40m+ to bribe officials in FIFA in an abortive Soccer World Cup host campaign.
Yet again the NZ Govt leads the way in responsible public expenditure, and our best sailors are forced to make another mob look good.
Gibbo
Ron Walden (29)
I can answer any America's cup questions with - "money Talks" (Spithill is from RPAYC too). It is about Rich folk - with lots of money - turning up with the best engineered boat, design and crew. There is no $ limit.
You want the 3 most aggresive sailors on your boat - you pay for them. Spithill, Ainslee and Slingsby are easily in the top 5 sailors in the world. Outteridge is one other.
America's Cup is unashamedly professional.
The NZ Govt's input of 50million is returned to them if they win the Cup back. The cup will pump 100's of millions into their Economy. It's a big Gamble that is paying off at the moment.
But that is a Conversation for greenandgoldsailing.com
You want the 3 most aggresive sailors on your boat - you pay for them. Spithill, Ainslee and Slingsby are easily in the top 5 sailors in the world. Outteridge is one other.
America's Cup is unashamedly professional.
The NZ Govt's input of 50million is returned to them if they win the Cup back. The cup will pump 100's of millions into their Economy. It's a big Gamble that is paying off at the moment.
But that is a Conversation for greenandgoldsailing.com
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
We are talking a bit at cross purposes, Hugh. Whether deliberately or not, I cannot say.
I personally have no particular problem with universities promoting themselves by sponsoring sporting teams. What I am concerned about is the future of grassroots rugby in Sydney.
Every club that is in the competition should have similar missions. First, and foremost, the promotion of the game in their district.
The Golden Boys would fail spectacularly at that hurdle. By any reasonable test, their rugby sponsorships and so on only promote themselves as an institution, and their sponsors and supporters, as egotists, concerned with their own glory, and caring nothing about the wider spread of the game. Not only that, but their totally dominant position (which is not going to change by chance, or by wishful thinking) can only continue to damage the game and its credibility at the place where it all starts - the grassroots.
Their very considerable resources could be put to work selflessly for the benefit of the game generally, they are surely bright enough to work out how this could be done, in ways that promote competition and the development and encouragement of players who would otherwise be lost to other sports.
If the University of Sydney wants to spend our money sponsoring rugby teams why, for example, does it not sponsor Penrith and Parramatta? They need it far more, and there is an argument that tertiary institutions should be looking to attract students from a range of demographic backgrounds.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Probs for another thread. Is one of the problems stemming from the popular view that Rugby development begins with Colts, or for the more progressive thinkers pick one of Under 15's, Under 16s or 1st XVs?
Much of the literature, discussion, resource focus from Rugby establishment talks about developing players from one of these age groups.
There are not enough Jesuit's in rugbydom, who understand the criticality of getting them when they are real young. By teenage years, it is too late.
As many will confirm, a boy who can not catch, pass or kick by under 12's seldom catches up with those that can. Strength and conditioning, tactics and strategy can be taught rather easily compared to catch, pass, kick and tackle. These are more like learning a language - gotta be done while young.
The taxes to the Ponies and Gordon thing was just an observation about levelling the playing field. If we are to have a go at the Wicks and the Corporation for their connections with a Public Educational facility, then get the shotgun out and target all clubs/franchises that receive the sponsorship/scholarship from Universities, not just the usual suspects.
The concern about Uni developing links with "the West" is that it could become a one way pathway into the Corporation once a kid shows any talent, at least many would portray it as such when a lad from Rooty Hill Raptors Under 16's ends up studying Human Movements in Camperdown.
Much of the literature, discussion, resource focus from Rugby establishment talks about developing players from one of these age groups.
There are not enough Jesuit's in rugbydom, who understand the criticality of getting them when they are real young. By teenage years, it is too late.
As many will confirm, a boy who can not catch, pass or kick by under 12's seldom catches up with those that can. Strength and conditioning, tactics and strategy can be taught rather easily compared to catch, pass, kick and tackle. These are more like learning a language - gotta be done while young.
The taxes to the Ponies and Gordon thing was just an observation about levelling the playing field. If we are to have a go at the Wicks and the Corporation for their connections with a Public Educational facility, then get the shotgun out and target all clubs/franchises that receive the sponsorship/scholarship from Universities, not just the usual suspects.
The concern about Uni developing links with "the West" is that it could become a one way pathway into the Corporation once a kid shows any talent, at least many would portray it as such when a lad from Rooty Hill Raptors Under 16's ends up studying Human Movements in Camperdown.
199madmave
Ward Prentice (10)
I must admit after putting up with some very obnoxious Woodies supporters at Milner last week I was almost pleased to see the students give them a hiding on Saturday. Is it just me or does Will Skelton look very sluggish on the field? Even the ABC commentators said he needed a rest after about 45 minutes on the field. Not sure what all the hype is about him....much better second rowers around in my humble opinion
swingpass
Peter Sullivan (51)
having only watched on the iView in Melbourne. i thought exactly the same thing. huge unit, but lazy and pretty slow and not that effective with either the ball in hand or at moving bodies in the ruck. was he just having an off day or buggered from the 2ndXV game beforehand ?
No.8
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Another fantastic display of why Australia needs a professional competition a 1st grade Shute Shield Grand Final with a score of 51-6 to Syndey University V Eastwood - Sydney University had 19 Professional contracted players (starting/bench) with Eastwood having 1 - What...a....joke
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
And of those 19 players were did they play their junior rugby U6 - U16 (some 17's start stepping up to colts that's all), if someone knows it would be interesting to see.
No.8
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Huh?
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
Is that because it was a stupid question? - Uni don't have juniors they scholarship from elsewhere. or
Is it because my question didn't make sense?
I.e.
Dave Dennis - didn't he play his juniors out west?
topo
Cyril Towers (30)
I can think of 6 off the top of my head who played their junior footy in the country and for their school. Therefore no association with Sydney clubs. There are probably a few more.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Glass houses, Gentlemen.
Uni may have players who did junior footy elsewhere, and probably lots of them.
What club is completely "organic"?
Organic = Has only players who have not played for another club at colts or grade level AND no players from country AND all players played with their Juniors AND attended schools in their "catchment" area.
Uni may have players who did junior footy elsewhere, and probably lots of them.
What club is completely "organic"?
Organic = Has only players who have not played for another club at colts or grade level AND no players from country AND all players played with their Juniors AND attended schools in their "catchment" area.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Gee, you are pretty good with the straw man argument, Hugh.
The genuine district clubs are not 100% homegrown, so that makes it okay that the Corporation is 0% homegrown (talking in terms of the grassroots production of juniors > seniors)?
Try harder, mate.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
topo Hugh Jarse No.8
Asked the question to be constructive, not critical.
I could think of 5 country boys at Uni, and I think they finished their schooling at private schools within Sydney on scholarships - so do we blame it on the Private School system for feeding Uni.
I think Uni are a huge asset to rugby for attracting and also retaining players, I am confident every other club is doing their very best to make use of the resources they have available to them - if they are not, refocus and change the game plan.
I think the Shute Shield up until the end of the Super Season is a fantastic comp. Who has won the last 6 Minor Premierships - just shows Uni's real dominance is post Super Season.
Then there is talk about the 3T - these paid players should be paid to grow the game in the area's of the true grass roots (U6 - U16), and this will feed through to U17 upwards (maybe more year 11 / 12 scholarships). It is for that reason I don't think they should stand alone in the 3T - ARU could hit a far broader base having them play abroad in Sydney.
Hugh Jarse Organic = go get up the Kiwis for all their Pacific Island players -
. I can only reference what I know - Manly won 3 state champs this year from the organic growth of grass roots, a space that should be watched over the coming years.
Asked the question to be constructive, not critical.
I could think of 5 country boys at Uni, and I think they finished their schooling at private schools within Sydney on scholarships - so do we blame it on the Private School system for feeding Uni.
I think Uni are a huge asset to rugby for attracting and also retaining players, I am confident every other club is doing their very best to make use of the resources they have available to them - if they are not, refocus and change the game plan.
I think the Shute Shield up until the end of the Super Season is a fantastic comp. Who has won the last 6 Minor Premierships - just shows Uni's real dominance is post Super Season.
Then there is talk about the 3T - these paid players should be paid to grow the game in the area's of the true grass roots (U6 - U16), and this will feed through to U17 upwards (maybe more year 11 / 12 scholarships). It is for that reason I don't think they should stand alone in the 3T - ARU could hit a far broader base having them play abroad in Sydney.
Hugh Jarse Organic = go get up the Kiwis for all their Pacific Island players -
. I can only reference what I know - Manly won 3 state champs this year from the organic growth of grass roots, a space that should be watched over the coming years.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Get the shotgun out and blast Uni by all means, but at least be consistent and look at the likes of the Wicks, Beasts, Hobbits, and Norths to see where their current players came from.
Even the Mighty Two Blues has sourced a player or two from external sources.
Gordon with about 1.5 million junior players struggles to field a 4th Grade team and ony managed 1 colts team this year. Not all of their junior playing stock beat a path to Camperdown.
There is plenty wrong with the development pathways in Sydney/Australian Rugby.
Blaming the Camperdown Corporation for it all is counter productive, and while it may make us feel good (the common enemy principle) blaming them, it will not change anything. The problems run deeper than Uni harvesting the cream of the crop.
I don't have the answer, and if it was an easy problem to solve, one of the clever sausages at Rugby Central in St Leonards, or one of the more clever but unpaid interns at Moore Park, would have implemented it by now. There are literally 1000's of posts on these threads from Gaggerlands Philosophy Department, and we are no closer to a solution.
Even the Mighty Two Blues has sourced a player or two from external sources.
Gordon with about 1.5 million junior players struggles to field a 4th Grade team and ony managed 1 colts team this year. Not all of their junior playing stock beat a path to Camperdown.
There is plenty wrong with the development pathways in Sydney/Australian Rugby.
Blaming the Camperdown Corporation for it all is counter productive, and while it may make us feel good (the common enemy principle) blaming them, it will not change anything. The problems run deeper than Uni harvesting the cream of the crop.
I don't have the answer, and if it was an easy problem to solve, one of the clever sausages at Rugby Central in St Leonards, or one of the more clever but unpaid interns at Moore Park, would have implemented it by now. There are literally 1000's of posts on these threads from Gaggerlands Philosophy Department, and we are no closer to a solution.
There are no genuine district clubs anymore, the essential difference between Uni and the rest is that Uni don't poach other first graders.
They develop through a strong, professional colts program, the rest just poach first graders.
Instead of dragging down Uni, the others should be looking to develop programs to develop the funnel of quality players so they want to play there
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
FP, if every club adopts the Uni model,the most highly paid players in any club will be Colts rookies,as Uni fees get gazumped by fees + accommodation etc etc.
It easy to say they develop kids through the Colts,but they aggressively recruit the best and brightest.
See how good Uni's systems are if they no longer get 1st dibs on all the Schoolboy stars.
Uni are doing nothing wrong under the current rules,but the current rules are a joke.
Any points system that is designed to spread talent,and ends up having the premiers fielding 19 Super players in the GF is clearly not working.
It easy to say they develop kids through the Colts,but they aggressively recruit the best and brightest.
See how good Uni's systems are if they no longer get 1st dibs on all the Schoolboy stars.
Uni are doing nothing wrong under the current rules,but the current rules are a joke.
Any points system that is designed to spread talent,and ends up having the premiers fielding 19 Super players in the GF is clearly not working.
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