• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

Shute Shield 2013

Status
Not open for further replies.

the coach

Bob Davidson (42)
is that players aspiring to play shute shield (Colts, country, subbies) or Shute Shield players aspiring to be waratahs

I hope the latter in the case of Colts and school leavers as I firmly believe that players should spend time in the Shute Shield (or equivalent) before being thrown in the deep end in S15. For example, I don't believe that Kurtley Beale going straight from school to playing no.10 for the Waratahs did anything for his confidence and possibly held back his development. He would have been better off spending a full year in the Shute Shield before playing for the Waratahs.
 

In the know I think.

Peter Burge (5)
I hope the latter in the case of Colts and school leavers as I firmly believe that players should spend time in the Shute Shield (or equivalent) before being thrown in the deep end in S15. For example, I don't believe that Kurtley Beale going straight from school to playing no.10 for the Waratahs did anything for his confidence and possibly held back his development. He would have been better off spending a full year in the Shute Shield before playing for the Waratahs.

Absolutely right, I know we are looking to move forward but we won 2 world cups on the model that if you are good enough you are playing top grades in the club system. Now with academys etc bipassing the model we have an U20s performance the worst in 4 decades and a Wallabies squad full of imposters.

Tell these kids "we think you are pretty good and we will be watching you but make 1st grade before we talk again."
 

rugbyvet

Chris McKivat (8)
Does anyone know when they decide on the draw/format of Shute shield for 2013. Surely not a repeat of this years debacle
 

sooty

Stan Wickham (3)
After reading from afar i would lke to throw my comments/ observations here- and no doubt some will be very strong with the attacks- so be it- sometimes the truth hurts.

In regards to the funding, band one got $12,000, Band two, $8,000, Band three, Nil. In regards to a post about the ladder positions and the funding, someone ask what Eastwood got- it wasnt band 1.They were a top 4 club in all grades ALL year- so there goes that theory.

In regards to clubs not knowing what the PRSP included- Crap or poor communication from front office to coaches and players. Information on this occured prior to the start of the comp or at worst the 1st couple of rounds. Clubs were informed in writing what the criteria is and had ample time to address any areas of concern. I understand that all clubs were visited by the ARU and had ample opportunity to ask questions of the process and the criteria regarding additional funding.Clubs need to look at themselves before blaming the ARU for all their misfortunes and lack of success. Simply pointing the bone at Uni , Manly etc just isnt a defence to why some clubs are poor on and off the field.

In regards to ARU not attending training or when they would turn up- clubs were given 21 days notice, if the date fell on the week of the bye then ask for the date to be moved.Not a defence sorry. With 12 clubs i am sure they would have been flexible. I know of at least 7 clubs where the ARU attended.

in regards to the ARC- has anyone asked the players what they thought? I know of one player who had to join RUPA( taken out of match payments-not a huge fee but still a fee) which essentially covered bugger all, lost 8 weeks of work as a tradesmen, got paid $6500 for the series( most tradies get more than that in the same period) got injured- RUPA did nothing to assist him and needles to say he no longer playing and the guy had ability. He isnt playing not because of the injury but because of the way he was treated by the keepers of the game at the time. When the player(s) were given a survey about the ARC, RUPA provided answers like- Slightly agree, agree, strongly agree. This left very little room for negative comments now does it. again ask the players. RUPA didnt represent these guys at all, just took the funds. 8 teams at 30 per squad , not big bucks but its a principle. BTW i support an ARC style system but would leave it to clubs and not the ridiculous Sydney Fleet Western Rams etc.

I mention the Fleet as a classic as to why the ARC failed. Uni, Randwick, Easts and i think 1 South's player having home games out of North Sydney Oval and they wonder why no one turned up. Transperecy also was questionable in the selection of players , coaches and management. I would use this as a promotion and relegation and have 8 teams , being the top 4 from Shute Shield the top 2 from QLD rugby, NSW country and a team from National Academy. The NSW Country and National Academy would be the only sides that will stay while the others would depend on results of the 1st grade side. run it a week after the competitions finish and at least the Academy kids will play rugby instead of holding tackle bags. NSW Country has a great history and should be showcased more, as long as they play home matches out of Newcatle( airport that can cater for travellers from intersate)

I would not support anything from the ACT as a stand alone as they currently do not support the national interests by making elite players run around in the local comp. Not in the best for the development of the game, especially when they do not develop a great deal anymore( no more Larkhams, Gregans, Roffs et al on the radar)

I know this sound all very negative but some of the contributors need to wake up and realise that for clubs to propser and survive they need to not only work friggin hard but friggin smart. They need to get out to the community and grab sponsors, members. If the sponsors and members are not there then realise that the area is not a rugby heartland- quite simple but sadly true.They need to be patient and grow the club- not try and focus solely on 1st grade. They need to be realistic about match payments, live within their means, meet the basic standards set out by the governing bodies( ARU- SRU- competition rules) but most of all be accountable to themselves and stop relying on hand outs, bail outs just to get out.

If you want a Shute Shield to be considered 3rd tier then the standards across some of the 12 clubs needs to be lifted but sadly that will not happen
 

lily

Vay Wilson (31)
Sooty has made some great points in that post. I will add that it is hard to grow a sponsorship base when only a selected few are shown on a Saturday arvo. Yes I know the Emu's were on TV last year but they were only on because of a complete round washout and they played Uni. See you in another 20 years if your still around. Kids aspire to be like their heroes, unfortunately for club rugby only the children of a few clubs ever get to see their potential ones. NRL fans as opposed to this at least get to see them weekly due to the foxtel/nine agreement. The sooner most of the rugby supporters acknowledge that rugby has become a boutique sport the better for all.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
The ARU dishes out a total of $84,000 to 12 clubs and makes the lucky ones go through a lengthy bureaucratic process?
FFS they would have spent more than that on JON's travel each year.
Get rid of the bureaucrats involved in this process and divide their salary by 12 and just send each of the clubs a fucking cheque .
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I hope the latter in the case of Colts and school leavers as I firmly believe that players should spend time in the Shute Shield (or equivalent) before being thrown in the deep end in S15. For example, I don't believe that Kurtley Beale going straight from school to playing no.10 for the Waratahs did anything for his confidence and possibly held back his development. He would have been better off spending a full year in the Shute Shield before playing for the Waratahs.

Interesting, in his second year he took the Tahs for the GF and they would've won in if he didn't go off..
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
The ARU dishes out a total of $84,000 to 12 clubs and makes the lucky ones go through a lengthy bureaucratic process?
FFS they would have spent more than that on JON's travel each year.
Get rid of the bureaucrats involved in this process and divide their salary by 12 and just send each of the clubs a fucking cheque .

$84000 is the equivalent of Peter Slipper's Text bill, and look at what a smart return on investment that was.
 
T

Tahboy

Guest
Not to sure if re hashing the year of the ARC is worth the effort as there are a stack of for and against arguments.
I would like to see a 3rd tier but as a national club comp and have 4 clubs from Sydney 3 from Brisbane and 1 from ACT, Perth and Melbourne
Each gets a grant from the ARU to help cover costs.
The shute shield still runs with 4 less clubs so everyone plays each other twice.
The 2 bottom clubs in the national comp are relegated and the top side from the same state as the relegated club has the option to move up
There will be a criteria clubs have to meet and maybe a financial bond has to be put down.
Each National club also has to have a Colts side as well? Like a Toyota cup side and this will give supporters 2 games to watch for there entry fee
I still remember being at Coogee oval watching Randwick v Brothers play for the club championship they were massive games in a packed ground
The problem will be which clubs make the initial teams
 

Done that

Ron Walden (29)
When you talk of "the top four clubs " etc . that implies that players who are not members of those clubs are excluded.
The consequences of that I suspect , are that good players would migrate to one of those clubs from the remaining clubs , thus creating an even bigger imbalance of
talent amongst the Shute shield clubs than already exists.
The formation of a new tier should give all talented players who are potential Super 15 players , the opportunity to progress.
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
EPL issue that the best players go to 3 or 4 clubs so that they can play Champions League. Then they have more money and can't really be challenged.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Not to sure if re hashing the year of the ARC is worth the effort as there are a stack of for and against arguments.
I would like to see a 3rd tier but as a national club comp and have 4 clubs from Sydney 3 from Brisbane and 1 from ACT, Perth and Melbourne
Each gets a grant from the ARU to help cover costs. Agree like the idea of 8 teams.
The shute shield still runs with 4 less clubs so everyone plays each other twice. Instead of taking away strong clubs from a good comp, create 4 rep teams that the clubs will support. Start the season earlier to acheive the full home and away. Second half of the season the rep teams play after 1st grade club rugby; this will do 2 things 1. bring first grade at the stronger clubs back to the pack, 2. but offset this by game location as it is these clubs that will want to support their players.
Starting the season earlier also advertises our game
The 2 bottom clubs in the national comp are relegated and the top side from the same state as the relegated club has the option to move up Avoids this complication
There will be a criteria clubs have to meet and maybe a financial bond has to be put down. Avoids this complication
Each National club also has to have a Colts side as well? Like a Toyota cup side and this will give supporters 2 games to watch for there entry fee Same rep teams apply to colts
I still remember being at Coogee oval watching Randwick v Brothers play for the club championship they were massive games in a packed ground A contributing factor to this would have been club support, the game and audiance has changed with professionalism. Packing the ground would be great and I do think with the right structure it can happen - Knuckles made reference to 3 demographic rep teams ans Sydney Uni.
The problem will be which clubs make the initial teams The above avoids this complication

Lastly, I would like to attend more games - if I went to Club Rugby, Super Rugby, there wife would be rightly pissed off if I also went to watch a 3T game
 
O

Ole Two Blue

Guest
After reading from afar i would lke to throw my comments/ observations here- and no doubt some will be very strong with the attacks- so be it- sometimes the truth hurts.

In regards to the funding, band one got $12,000, Band two, $8,000, Band three, Nil. In regards to a post about the ladder positions and the funding, someone ask what Eastwood got- it wasnt band 1.They were a top 4 club in all grades ALL year- so there goes that theory.

In regards to clubs not knowing what the PRSP included- Crap or poor communication from front office to coaches and players. Information on this occured prior to the start of the comp or at worst the 1st couple of rounds. Clubs were informed in writing what the criteria is and had ample time to address any areas of concern. I understand that all clubs were visited by the ARU and had ample opportunity to ask questions of the process and the criteria regarding additional funding.Clubs need to look at themselves before blaming the ARU for all their misfortunes and lack of success. Simply pointing the bone at Uni , Manly etc just isnt a defence to why some clubs are poor on and off the field.

In regards to ARU not attending training or when they would turn up- clubs were given 21 days notice, if the date fell on the week of the bye then ask for the date to be moved.Not a defence sorry. With 12 clubs i am sure they would have been flexible. I know of at least 7 clubs where the ARU attended.

in regards to the ARC- has anyone asked the players what they thought? I know of one player who had to join RUPA( taken out of match payments-not a huge fee but still a fee) which essentially covered bugger all, lost 8 weeks of work as a tradesmen, got paid $6500 for the series( most tradies get more than that in the same period) got injured- RUPA did nothing to assist him and needles to say he no longer playing and the guy had ability. He isnt playing not because of the injury but because of the way he was treated by the keepers of the game at the time. When the player(s) were given a survey about the ARC, RUPA provided answers like- Slightly agree, agree, strongly agree. This left very little room for negative comments now does it. again ask the players. RUPA didnt represent these guys at all, just took the funds. 8 teams at 30 per squad , not big bucks but its a principle. BTW i support an ARC style system but would leave it to clubs and not the ridiculous Sydney Fleet Western Rams etc.

I mention the Fleet as a classic as to why the ARC failed. Uni, Randwick, Easts and i think 1 South's player having home games out of North Sydney Oval and they wonder why no one turned up. Transperecy also was questionable in the selection of players , coaches and management. I would use this as a promotion and relegation and have 8 teams , being the top 4 from Shute Shield the top 2 from QLD rugby, NSW country and a team from National Academy. The NSW Country and National Academy would be the only sides that will stay while the others would depend on results of the 1st grade side. run it a week after the competitions finish and at least the Academy kids will play rugby instead of holding tackle bags. NSW Country has a great history and should be showcased more, as long as they play home matches out of Newcatle( airport that can cater for travellers from intersate)

I would not support anything from the ACT as a stand alone as they currently do not support the national interests by making elite players run around in the local comp. Not in the best for the development of the game, especially when they do not develop a great deal anymore( no more Larkhams, Gregans, Roffs et al on the radar)

I know this sound all very negative but some of the contributors need to wake up and realise that for clubs to propser and survive they need to not only work friggin hard but friggin smart. They need to get out to the community and grab sponsors, members. If the sponsors and members are not there then realise that the area is not a rugby heartland- quite simple but sadly true.They need to be patient and grow the club- not try and focus solely on 1st grade. They need to be realistic about match payments, live within their means, meet the basic standards set out by the governing bodies( ARU- SRU- competition rules) but most of all be accountable to themselves and stop relying on hand outs, bail outs just to get out.

If you want a Shute Shield to be considered 3rd tier then the standards across some of the 12 clubs needs to be lifted but sadly that will not happen

I wasn't aware you're part of the management of our club. I have spoken at length with our guys, and I can assure you, despite numerous requests made through SRU (following the preferred and established governance) we were never informed of the criteria. As mentioned, a survey was sent out, including a request to have audited financial statements made available. The date was set for the meeting was determined well in advance, this is not the issue. Our club had ample time to prepare the paperwork and is not a focus of the concern. We were visited by the ARU on the date indicated, and we provided the paperwork required and the coach, GM and President sat down with ARU staff and discussed at length the process. Again, this is not an issue of complaint. From what I'm told though, the ARU when questioned had no idea of the time frame involved in providing the clubs with the results of the survey. Again, I stress, it was a survey. No criteria was made available.

We do not blame the ARU for our misfortunes, in fact it's quite the opposite, nor do we blame Uni and Manly for our predicaments, though there is a case for some arguments here but nothing that will cast any blame on anyone other than previous management of our club.

You mention clubs were given 21 days notice of when the ARU were attending our training and that we had the ability to have it changed. Again, I am not aware that our GM included you in the email trails, but I can say that in relation to our club, all of your claim here is complete horseshit. We were told on the Friday, by the recently appointed new Head Coach of National Academy he's coming out on Tuesday. It had to be that night, as he wanted to get to 'the better clubs' in the coming weeks.

Whilst I empathise with you on your ACT statement, shouldn't we be better than that though? Invite them, if they decline thus declaring their lack of support for the national interest, then cut their funding entirely. But don't exclude them just because a South African wants his players to stay within their 'jurisdiction'. Take the moral high ground first, then if they continue to act in that way, just take the head off that pimple! Swiftly.

We are working 'friggin hard' and believe 'friggin smart'. A significant change to our fortunes is 12-16 months away, and will be managed with intelligence and integrity. What we will not stand for though, is the narrow minded self centred egotistical approach taken by the better resourced clubs pillaging our emerging players from us then seeking to have us punished for not fielding enough teams. If they truly wanted a fair and even competition across all grades, then they should only develop players from within their own geographical boundaries and keep their grubby hands off everyone elses!
 

the coach

Bob Davidson (42)
It's interesting how often in these pages someone with inside knowledge comes along with the facts to debunk the popular opinion about various issues. The die hard supporters of club rugby really have no idea what the ARU, NSWRU, SRU are doing as regards funding of the Shute Shield and a whole lot of other issues. There's almost a conspiracy of silence. I'd suggest most of the clubs contribute to this as well. Obviously the lack of any significant media coverage is a contributor to this problem, but it would be nice to see some attempts by the various parties to communicate with the people who pay through the gates every week. If it weren't for Rugby News we wouldn't even know how the player points system worked!
 

In the know I think.

Peter Burge (5)
I wasn't aware you're part of the management of our club. I have spoken at length with our guys, and I can assure you, despite numerous requests made through SRU (following the preferred and established governance) we were never informed of the criteria. As mentioned, a survey was sent out, including a request to have audited financial statements made available. The date was set for the meeting was determined well in advance, this is not the issue. Our club had ample time to prepare the paperwork and is not a focus of the concern. We were visited by the ARU on the date indicated, and we provided the paperwork required and the coach, GM and President sat down with ARU staff and discussed at length the process. Again, this is not an issue of complaint. From what I'm told though, the ARU when questioned had no idea of the time frame involved in providing the clubs with the results of the survey. Again, I stress, it was a survey. No criteria was made available.

We do not blame the ARU for our misfortunes, in fact it's quite the opposite, nor do we blame Uni and Manly for our predicaments, though there is a case for some arguments here but nothing that will cast any blame on anyone other than previous management of our club.

You mention clubs were given 21 days notice of when the ARU were attending our training and that we had the ability to have it changed. Again, I am not aware that our GM included you in the email trails, but I can say that in relation to our club, all of your claim here is complete horseshit. We were told on the Friday, by the recently appointed new Head Coach of National Academy he's coming out on Tuesday. It had to be that night, as he wanted to get to 'the better clubs' in the coming weeks.

Whilst I empathise with you on your ACT statement, shouldn't we be better than that though? Invite them, if they decline thus declaring their lack of support for the national interest, then cut their funding entirely. But don't exclude them just because a South African wants his players to stay within their 'jurisdiction'. Take the moral high ground first, then if they continue to act in that way, just take the head off that pimple! Swiftly.

We are working 'friggin hard' and believe 'friggin smart'. A significant change to our fortunes is 12-16 months away, and will be managed with intelligence and integrity. What we will not stand for though, is the narrow minded self centred egotistical approach taken by the better resourced clubs pillaging our emerging players from us then seeking to have us punished for not fielding enough teams. If they truly wanted a fair and even competition across all grades, then they should only develop players from within their own geographical boundaries and keep their grubby hands off everyone elses!

Ole Two Blue speaks the truth, I can also assure you all that not all clubs got a training visit.
The first time the criteria was seen was when the letters came out with the results.
The plan is fine, execution rubbish and the payments are backwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: no9

Andrew B Cox

Sydney Middleton (9)
Does anyone know who this newly appointed Head Coach of the National academy is?

There appears to be a cast of thousands at the ARU. Nucifora, Eddy, Carossa, etc.

Theres' 3X the total club allocation in Elite development salaries there alone.

Yet we have no money where 'the rubber meets the road'.

You only have to see how the 2010 Australian schools team developed into the 2012 under 20s to see how well money is being spent at the pointy end.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top