Done that
Ron Walden (29)
It is not a non sequitur in the context of numerous posts in this forum;in relation to your comment it is a conjunct.
Shute Shield 2012 ins and outs
- Thread starter latrell247
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Balcknred
Guest
I totally agree with your comments andrew and from what I've observed and heard is more a frustration of playing in a team that was winning (3rd grade) and not getting chances to play in a second grade side that struggled regularly and it seems very well they operate in a pack mentality - where one goes we all go - the odd one seems to be Fong , a kid who played colts and progressed all the way through to first grade at wests and then decides to leave to uni of all places ...
Guys don't take my posts as a shot at the west harbour club I've just mentioned supposed players that have left and the reasoning I have heard why , if I wanted to unload on someone it I'd rather do it towards nsw rugby and their lack only interest towards the shute shield .. But that's a different argument for a differen forum
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Tahboy
Guest
I thought this thread was Shute Shield 2012 in and outs?
If I hear of a player going from Wests to another club how is that having a crack at Wests?
The 2 colts players are Max Page and Samuel Muller
If I hear of a player going from Wests to another club how is that having a crack at Wests?
The 2 colts players are Max Page and Samuel Muller
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Balcknred
Guest
I don't think it's aimed towards you tahboy just people making comment that some of the comments towards he wests club aren to warranted , do those to boys go to grade or are they still in colts ? As many have said it maybe worth there while to stay
V
Vincent
Guest
On face value, lots of player turnover at West Harbour. Any heads-up on new players ??
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Tahboy
Guest
Those 2 players are playing Colts in 2012
Both very good players
Both very good players
no9
Ted Fahey (11)
Players moving clubs regularly while not desirable is part of club rugby fabric. Some players are happy to stay at one club and wait for opportunities to test their playing ability at the levels that are afforded them while enjoying what being part of a rugby club offers socially. Further recognition such as playing 100+ games on their club honour boards cements the bonds between player and club. Other players are more transient by nature and seek out opportunities to test their ability. Some then settle at a club and play out their career.
With regards to the Wests boys who have chosen to move on I wish them well and hope they enjoyed their time with the club. More importantly I hope that those who are staying see the opportunities this opens up for them and that they work hard and fulfill their ambitions and talent. Perhaps some Eastwood players may see an opportunity avail itself to them.
Unfortunately with the advent of quasi-professionalism within club rugby and players looking for grocery/petrol money we'll see more club hopping of lower level performers. Honour boards for 100 first grade games will be replaced by $ boards to recognise what players were paid when 'representing their clubs' as the chances of them playing 100 games isn't likely. Ask yourself how many club games did players like Waugh and Mortlock play. Then clubs could have boards to recognise players who deputised for such players. This isn't directed as a shot at these players ability as they are capable players hopefully enjoying the game. It is really aimed at the ARU/NSWRU/SRU for its lack of direction and leadership with regard to the gap between S15 and club rugby. Instead of helping to build a healthy club competition which is the entry point to senior rugby for most players they are prepared to standby and watch as a handfull of clubs entice lower placed clubs best talents away under the pretense that it is in the players best interest and has no benefit to the club in receipt of the playing talent or for simply more cash.
This doesn't benefit rugby as a sport competing with the other winter codes by limiting the competetiveness of some clubs or send them out of existence by trying to live outside their financial capabilities. League and AFL have distributed the playing talent evenly accross their competitions and are seeing growth in support and profits. The importance of club rugby is not attracting crowds of 10-15,000 to Concord or Coogee but in providing a competition of a standard that lessens the gap to provincial level and supplying a pool of talent that can play at provincial and international level which is where rugby has the lead over AFL and NRL.
By limiting the Shute shield to two clubs with provincial standard rosters and others to also rans is head in the sand stuff. Rules should be put into place immediately and enforced that help the lower placed clubs build for the future without fear of losing their best talents. A limit of five S15 players per club and restrictions on them competing in club finals would hopefully lessen the stockpile attitude and return to clubs improving their own development programs.
Finally, the perception (reality) within junior rugby circles is that if you aren't in some kind of Glee club development squad by the time your voice breaks you have no pathway in the game. You only have to visit the schoolboys forum to get a taste of the importance they place on having JGS or NTS placed next to their names. Give the clubs some financial/coaching help to impliment development academies such as the English model and widen the elite player base not narrow it.
My apolagies for getting away from the forum topic but the cause needs to be discussed to find solutions to the results.
With regards to the Wests boys who have chosen to move on I wish them well and hope they enjoyed their time with the club. More importantly I hope that those who are staying see the opportunities this opens up for them and that they work hard and fulfill their ambitions and talent. Perhaps some Eastwood players may see an opportunity avail itself to them.
Unfortunately with the advent of quasi-professionalism within club rugby and players looking for grocery/petrol money we'll see more club hopping of lower level performers. Honour boards for 100 first grade games will be replaced by $ boards to recognise what players were paid when 'representing their clubs' as the chances of them playing 100 games isn't likely. Ask yourself how many club games did players like Waugh and Mortlock play. Then clubs could have boards to recognise players who deputised for such players. This isn't directed as a shot at these players ability as they are capable players hopefully enjoying the game. It is really aimed at the ARU/NSWRU/SRU for its lack of direction and leadership with regard to the gap between S15 and club rugby. Instead of helping to build a healthy club competition which is the entry point to senior rugby for most players they are prepared to standby and watch as a handfull of clubs entice lower placed clubs best talents away under the pretense that it is in the players best interest and has no benefit to the club in receipt of the playing talent or for simply more cash.
This doesn't benefit rugby as a sport competing with the other winter codes by limiting the competetiveness of some clubs or send them out of existence by trying to live outside their financial capabilities. League and AFL have distributed the playing talent evenly accross their competitions and are seeing growth in support and profits. The importance of club rugby is not attracting crowds of 10-15,000 to Concord or Coogee but in providing a competition of a standard that lessens the gap to provincial level and supplying a pool of talent that can play at provincial and international level which is where rugby has the lead over AFL and NRL.
By limiting the Shute shield to two clubs with provincial standard rosters and others to also rans is head in the sand stuff. Rules should be put into place immediately and enforced that help the lower placed clubs build for the future without fear of losing their best talents. A limit of five S15 players per club and restrictions on them competing in club finals would hopefully lessen the stockpile attitude and return to clubs improving their own development programs.
Finally, the perception (reality) within junior rugby circles is that if you aren't in some kind of Glee club development squad by the time your voice breaks you have no pathway in the game. You only have to visit the schoolboys forum to get a taste of the importance they place on having JGS or NTS placed next to their names. Give the clubs some financial/coaching help to impliment development academies such as the English model and widen the elite player base not narrow it.
My apolagies for getting away from the forum topic but the cause needs to be discussed to find solutions to the results.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
It wouldn't have done much good me asking myself, no9, so I asked Uni's legendary statistician, Craig "Fizza" Fear, and the answer for Phil Waugh was one year of Colts then 47 Grade games. all First Grade.
We are not likely to see much of Super players coming back to play in the Finals series in 2012, given that the Super 15 and Shute Shield competitions will be virtually coextensive. This poses an interesting challenge for the clubs that have previously had large numbers of professional players in their ranks. I think we will see two contrasting approaches. Either the club will devote its resources to buying players from other Sydney clubs or else they will focus on fast tracking the development of their own emerging players.
latrell247
Chris McKivat (8)
How bout Coach Lachlan Fear at Easts. Easts signed Mark Bakewell. is Fear still wit Easts?
no9
Ted Fahey (11)
Thanks Bruce,
47 games over a 10+ years career equating to about 4 appearances a year (mostly finals probably) isn't much is it. Good or bad? who knows. Long ago when I was playing Wallabies were playing an average of 15-18 games annually for their clubs which brought the levels of play to a high enough level that a Randwick 2nd grade hooker could be thrown in against the All Blacks and hold his own. It was also a huge incentive for club players to reach the top grade and perhaps brought a few extra spectators through the gates other than the club die hards.
Of course they only played a couple of Sydney and State games each year back then and we're way past that now. What is frustrating is that the hierachy seem happy just dragging their heels with no seperation between the full professionals and the part timers. This leads to a competition between the haves and have nots with blow out scores and some clubs risking their existence for instant success. As you have alluded to, each club is going to have to look at how they manage their playing rosters with the full timers unavailable at finals time. I see this as a positive and a chance to push for a structure that will produce a strong Wallaby side with a wide catchment of talented players.
I'd propose that each Super 15 franchise creates an academy side (age limit/experience to be decided) that plays against the other Australian provinces as per the Super 15 draw. These players would be available for club rounds throughout the year to fill any gaps in playing schedules while the senior team is in NZ or SA but not finals if they play senior provincial rugby in that year. Senior players could also play a limited amount of club rounds to cover returns from injury and poor form but not finals.
Clubs should then be encouraged to restructure to a first grade (Shute shield) and Academy team (perhaps with a 22/23 year age limit) as the flagship sides but could also maintain the remaining grade and colts teams. This would currently allow for 360 potential elite club playing positions (12 x clubs with 2 teams). This would provide a pathway from playing with your club academy team through grade and into provincial academies or senior teams which is the right place to then be classified as a professional.
This takes the development role away from the ARU and allows them to do what they should be which is running the national senior program. Funding to the clubs should be provided for elite coaching and management with deductions to the individual clubs if they are reliant on taking talent from other clubs.Clubs should then be out there sourcing 16yrs and upwards players for junior academies to flow through. The smart clubs will position talent observers who know what to look for technically and physically in a junior and any late bloomers. An agreement between the clubs to maintain amateur conditions until senior and academy levels would help to retard clubs inducing talented players away remembering that once they achieve that level their playing value to the club devalues if they manage to play provincial rugby that year.
In a perfect world this would have 12 clubs playing in a competition of high standard while preparing for the levels of provincial and international rugby. This could also help with the development of clubs like Penrith who could focus on the top two sides without the pressure of providing 7-8-9 sides each weekend.
Once again i'm sorry for getting away from the subject but Sydney rugby is periously close to imploding if the powers don't start managing the game with a plan that sets out the games direction and future for the years ahead.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
No 9: got any ideas where the money for this would come from?
My impression of your proposal is that it would add an extra tier of paid players (at least) - His royal highness JON decreed that we could not afford such an indulgence.
My impression of your proposal is that it would add an extra tier of paid players (at least) - His royal highness JON decreed that we could not afford such an indulgence.
no9
Ted Fahey (11)
My instant reaction would be to sack half of the overpaid hangers on at ARU headquarters and make the other half justify their positions.
But seriously if I was king JON for a day I would decree the following;
Super 15 as it is with players contracted to provinces and performance incentives top ups from the ARU
S15 Academies funded by provinces. Most of the provinces already had or have a series of different tier payments to up and coming players.
Club first grade paid what clubs can afford (not much) remembering that the full time professionals are now not as much value if restricted from finals and have limited game time.
Club Academy players would get petrol money and an opportunity to showcase any talent in a better organised competition. This could lead to higher offers with the provinces having given them a real opportunity to see how the kids handle the step between junior/school rugby and senior rugby and not taking educated guesses as is currently the case.
The money saved in disbanding the Glee club development squads and the associated management costs and salaries from anybody who can't show that they've contributed towards improving Australian rugby during their tenure should be used to help fund the club academies with checks and balances in place to see that the money isn't being paid to players but used to improve their playing ability.
We now have 3 levels of rugby with 2 of them full time professional and a club competition of part timers who have then been expected to compete at finals time with the full timers. My view is to open up as many opportunities as possible to the lower tiers to showcase what they have in as equal a competition as possible and get the pointy end of the upper tiers to help fund some of those opportunities. Take Elitism squads away from the ARU where there is a mentality that if you haven't made it by 16 and come from the wrong side of the tracks then your career is over even if you grow to be a 2 metre tall 110 kg aggressive behemeth who runs like a freight train.
Clubs would be free to recruit from schools and districts by showcasing what opportunities their academy could provide in training/coaching/physio and the like. not just offering cash. By handing development responsibility to the clubs it would also hopefully provide them a bit of input into the provincial set ups as they liaise over a players development and weed out the entrenched nepotism of some remaining NSWRU officials whose allegiance is to their club before the greater good of the game.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Which is why we needed the intermediate championship in which promising club players were paid to mix it with the S15 also rans (no disrespect intended). There is no way of having anything other than a part time, small paid club comp - there arent enough players worthy of full time, there isn't the money, there isn't the wider interest in club rugby.
You have to start at the bottom - the ARU has to seize development from the elite private schools (who, like it or not, produce the cannon fodder for professional and semi-professional rugby). Once you broaden the base (like AFL, RL and Cricket) 2 things happen: more people become interested because they are indirectly connected to players; and, more players come through and the chances are higher of regularly filling the Tahs/Reds and Wallabies with class players. Rebels and Brumbies get the balance of players!
You have to start at the bottom - the ARU has to seize development from the elite private schools (who, like it or not, produce the cannon fodder for professional and semi-professional rugby). Once you broaden the base (like AFL, RL and Cricket) 2 things happen: more people become interested because they are indirectly connected to players; and, more players come through and the chances are higher of regularly filling the Tahs/Reds and Wallabies with class players. Rebels and Brumbies get the balance of players!
Rugby Central
Charlie Fox (21)
If you want to save money, lose the academies. The biggest waste of money, resources and talent in Australian Rugby...yes, even a greater waste than senior ARU Salaries. Though easy saving to be made there.
The money could then be channelled in to the clubs and the standard would immediately pick up because players aren't being mothballed; they are actually out there playing rugby. Let the Clubs determine how they develop players. If they're good they thrive, if the a badly run, they die.
Build the club competitions and re-introduce representative rugby. You remember the days when the best players from competing teams came together to create a higher standard team.
If you want evidence that academies are crap...Kurtley Beale. For the first couple of years he was garbage. Not through lack of talent, but lack of game time. After he had finally played enough footy he knew what he was doing on the park.
Save money by removing academies, save money by not creating a pretend "national" competition (filled with Sydney and Brisbane players) and watch players develop all across Australia. You will then have serious player depth competing for Super Rugby spots and there will be no need to pay ridiculous sums of money to players because you have no choice...oh look another saving.
no9
Ted Fahey (11)
I agree in principle with your comments and if you reread my original thoughts you'll see that I would like to see the ARU "Academy" gone in favour of clubs being in control of development which has a more far reaching and less biased approach than currently exists. The club academies need not be an overly expensive exercise. This is loosely modelled around the English system which provided a stunning example in this years schoolboy internationals of how far we are behind at that level. The problem to be avoided is to not let the clubs have ultimate control over the players as had happened in England. Maintaining seperation between clubs, provinces and national interests should be attainable.
The other balance that clubs and players find hard to maintain is the restrictions on Colts aged players crossing into grade too early or needing 1-2 more years development (particlarly props and hookers). An elite academy comp with players up to age 23 would allow this. If a kid is outstanding he will naturally progress into first grade or to the provincial set ups ahead of time. But what of the slow burners who don't shine so brightly right away (particlarly props and hookers again).
Currently the clubs have to push them into grade but young players nowadays won't bide their time learning their position in the thirds or fourths. They want a spot in the 1's or 2's and this then creates part of the problem with club hopping. They also are then on too steep a learning curve and are not ready to even be called on as bench players in the firsts. This is where Australian rugby has lost the plot. we don't give kids a pathway to properly grow both physically or mentally to become the hardened professionals we expect in the Wallabies. Why are we an international laughing stock with regards to our scrum. Because we take kids out of school, put them in cotton wool, play more bench time than game time and when they fail at age 22 we write them off and start looking for a new wunderkid (thanks Eddie).
Some 22 year olds manage to hang on and float around from province to province but rarely are reinvented. Where are the grizzled artists of the scrum who hit their peake between 28 and 35? Dick Harry and Blades would have been our last world ranked pairing and Harry was given time to develop when he moved from the backrow.
Unfortunatelty the devil in the detail of professionalism is the need for instant success and previous administrations had too short a view with regards to the future and paid too much attention to the top end of the game. Having led the world at the beginning of the professional era we have now fallen well behind but no one wants to admit it and embrace the changes required to bring back the consistency of performance we once were able to achieve with the national side (no losses to Samoa or Scotland! won a Bledisloe cup, remember the days) which hinges on strong competition at the club levels in providing a player pool capable of taking the next steps.
Knuckles
Ted Thorn (20)
word is Fear won't be there.
K
Keithy
Guest
Chris Moore from Norths and Damien LLoyd, Mitch Hardy and James King all former West harbour Players. Pretty easy to find some cash with the Laundy Hotel group as your sponsor.
Done that
Ron Walden (29)
Mitch Hardy from Gordon.All the rest , including Chris Moore , former Wests players.
K
Keithy
Guest
Hardy was WH colt and 2nd grader, then went to UWS out at Richmond. Moore played at norths last 4/5 years but was a former WH player.
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