Scrum Talk

[Chris McCracken]

The importance of a strong second row has long been known and fair enough that you've read the studies from before the game went pro.

It's not a studies thing. It's just what I was always taught. The article seems to take the line that we think the power comes from the front row and that we're being educated to the contrary. At least, that was my reading of it.

Nonetheless, I actually like the data presented in the original study and think the more work in the area that is done, the better.

 

[formerflanker]

Fascinating to see that 3 front rowers produce almost the same force as 2 locks AND have to grapple, bind, butt heads, and get under their opponents.
Also, imagine the small amount of force from U19 flankers who don't have a full backside to put a shoulder to because of the binding law.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

The problem with the 'use it' call at the end of the first half was that the ball was still under the locks at that point and potentially there to be contested.

Palu could have foreseeably reached through to grab it but the onus shouldn't be on the number 8 to pick the ball up that early.

By the time the Tahs got the ball to the back and it was usable, Peyper blew his whistle.

The Laws also include this:
(e)When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.
(f)When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

 

[Quick Hands]

The Laws also include this:
(e)When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.
(f)When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

Well spotted, it's in a different section of the scrum laws.

This would seem to outlaw the second shove that many teams in NH rugby use to manufacture a penalty. (Unless of course the scrum starts moving immediately)

Let's formalise the "use it" call and also lets take penalty options off the table once the ball reaches no 8.

 

[Wilson]

Sounds good, perhaps these should be put to the aru in the next round of submissions for nrc law variations.

 

[Scoey]

As with a few law variation suggestions, it seems that the laws in place are probably adequate for the intended outcome, it's just that they aren't enforced.

 

[Scoey]

So when the props I played with always blamed the second-rowers they were right?

Props are always right

Us locks may provide the force but if the three amigos up the front can't point the force in the right direction it doesn't matter how much weight we give them does it?

 

[MonkeyBoy]

It'd be a shame if the ball at the eight's feet took away the option for a pushover try, if all penalties were off the books once the ball hits the eight then a team under pressure 3 metres out is going to bail as there is no repercussion. I love some slick running rugby but nothing fires me up like pushover try with the oppostions front row going back over top of their own locks!!!

 

[Quick Hands]

It'd be a shame if the ball at the eight's feet took away the option for a pushover try, if all penalties were off the books once the ball hits the eight then a team under pressure 3 metres out is going to bail as there is no repercussion. I love some slick running rugby but nothing fires me up like pushover try with the oppostions front row going back over top of their own locks!!!

The pushover from a 5m attacking scrum is the exception.

BTW, when was the last pushover try that was actually scored? I reckon there's about 10 times more penalty tries than the ball actually getting pushed over the line. Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember quite a way back and pushover tries have always been quite a rare occurrence.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

The pushover from a 5m attacking scrum is the exception.

BTW, when was the last pushover try that was actually scored? I reckon there's about 10 times more penalty tries than the ball actually getting pushed over the line. Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember quite a way back and pushover tries have always been quite a rare occurrence.

I hear what you are saying but what happens to laws at international at International and Super Rugby level eventually rolls down to club level and there are few more push overs there.
Referees at the higher levels usually have the nouse to "let it breathe" and see what happens where as the guys further down the chain are more likely to referee the law not the game, there still needs to be a competiotion at the set-piece or we risk becoming League like where it becomes a restart that is used to drag opposing players out of the D-Line.
Referees need to be smarter looking at scrum set-up and who is under-pressure. foot posn, leg angles etc. etc.

 

[Quick Hands]

I hear what you are saying but what happens to laws at international at International and Super Rugby level eventually rolls down to club level and there are few more push overs there.
Referees at the higher levels usually have the nouse to "let it breathe" and see what happens where as the guys further down the chain are more likely to referee the law not the game, there still needs to be a competiotion at the set-piece or we risk becoming League like where it becomes a restart that is used to drag opposing players out of the D-Line.
Referees need to be smarter looking at scrum set-up and who is under-pressure. foot posn, leg angles etc. etc.

But is the scrum, as it is currently played and refereed really a contest? How many scrums are won by the team not putting the ball in? In many cases scrums are just a penalty winning contest not a ball winning contest - which is not what they are there for. They are meant to be a quick and fair way to restart play after a minor infringement. And let's face it many of these penalties are pure guesswork. I've said many times 1/3 referee right, 1/3 referee wrong and the other 1/3 could have gone either way (scrum penalties I mean).

 

[MonkeyBoy]

I know what you are saying and I agree at international level but I think we see more THs at Super 15 and definitely at club level. Northern Hemisphere and Argentina use it as a weapon and Australian teams just don't like to scrum, we have put too much emphasis on mobile props and unfortunately referees have tagged Australia a weak scrummagers and a lot aren't looking beyond that when scrum collapses. It is killing one of my favourite parts of the game.

 

[Marcelo]

Here is the future Wallaby THP:

http://m.smh.com.au/rugby-union/war...roon-to-the-nsw-waratahs-20150403-1me350.html

A smart move by Cheika. Sharks offered a contract for him, the kid should be good

Impressed with Kuate's attitude and skills, head coach Michael Cheika invited Kuate to travel with the team for the rest of their two-game tour to Durban and Cape Town.
"I was so emotional, I didn't know what to do," Kuate said. "Being with the guys you always see on TV and now to train with them was such a big thing."
Cheika was sufficiently impressed to offer Kuate a contract with NSW. That was a year ago this weekend, but a painstaking visa approval process delayed his arrival for more than eight months. During that time, the Sharks also offered Kuate a contract, but the Waratahs' generosity - and the chance to learn from Sekope Kepu and Benn Robinson - had convinced Kuate he should move to Sydney.

 

[Chris McCracken]

Here is the future Wallaby THP:

He's 17, right? Let's give him some time before we start putting that sort of expectation on him.

I hope he pans out. I also hope Tupou does. But before those two make it to that level, we'll get to see potential in other guys between 18 and 21 that we simply don't know about yet.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ On the money about teenage rockstars @Chris McCracken. Well over 50% of the latest teenage rugby sensations who make Australian Schoolboys Rugby team do not make Wallabies.

There are a whole heap of reasons why this happens.

 

[Marcelo]

He's 17, right? Let's give him some time before we start putting that sort of expectation on him.

I hope he pans out. I also hope Tupou does. But before those two make it to that level, we'll get to see potential in other guys between 18 and 21 that we simply don't know about yet.

Apparently he's 19 or 20. Whatever, it's just a joke. I meant the Wallaby THP position is so poor plus the Kepu's exodus, any kid is a challenger for the position.

 

[Chris McCracken]

Apparently he's 19 or 20. Whatever, it's just a joke. I meant the Wallaby THP position is so poor plus the Kepu's exodus, any kid is a challenger for the position.

Sorry. I didn't catch the sarcasm. All good.

 

[Pfitzy]

Tell you what, I had to fight the urge to lie back and smoke a cigarette after some of the scrums in Eastwood versus Manly today.

Holy fucking hell that was positively stiffening for an ex-prop.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Tell you what, I had to fight the urge to lie back and smoke a cigarette after some of the scrums in Eastwood versus Manly today.

Holy fucking hell that was positively stiffening for an ex-prop.

Was that before or after Manly played Easts?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I fully understand the need for scrum safety in the lower grades and semi pro level. In the dark ages there were a lot of injuries that have largely been prevented under the new packing process and the mayday call. That is really positive news.

Do we really need the Referee to take charge of Professional Rugby Scrums?
While the forces are greater in the modern scrum, there were no serious neck injuries at the top level in the olden days when hookers basically called their scrums into contact, and the Kees Mews implementation of the Mayday process after a call by Ben Darwin in 2003 is the only case I can remember from Pro level in the modern era.

A referee lead scrum can take up to a minute to pack on a good day. Archive footage shows that scrums were over and done with in under 20 seconds, and that included time for the fatties to practice all the shenanigans of the Front Row Dark Arts on each other.

Is there a case to conduct a trial at Stellenbosch or somewhere else where the pigs are given 10 seconds to pack a scrum with no referee involvement? Failure to pack in the allocated time is a Free Kick against the team that wasn't ready to pack.
If a props shoelace is undone and it takes more than 10 seconds - Free Kick.
If a 2nd rower needs urgent medical treatment and this delays their arrival at the scrum by > 10 seconds - Free Kick, or the No 8 packs at 2nd row and one of the centres goes to No 8 or they pack 7 down against 8 - whatever.
If a fatty needs to scrape the soil from his studs and this delays the packing by > 10 seconds - Free Kick. Keep your studs clean in general play.

Establish an Professional Front Row Certification such that if both teams in a Professional (or International) game can field Front rows with the Certification, the "10 second to pack" rule applies and the referee is removed from the process.