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Scrum Talk

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TOCC

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"Having the advantage" of the loosehead becomes a moot point if your hooker can't hook, because you've got 8 people pushing low and hard against them.

Back in the old days, when hookers actually hooked the opposition ball, it meant something. But if we persist with a narrow tunnel to put the ball down, we're just going to get two shoving contests, and a shitload of scrums where the ball just sits there.

I marvel that anyone can get their feet up with their shoulders that close to the ground. Let's not kill anyone trying to make it more difficult.

I agree, and if a hooker does attempt to hook the ball when it's not right at his feet he compromises the front row and the opposition will put the shove on.

The front rows centre of gravity are so low that a hooker has to really extend himself to hook for a ball which is in the middle of a tunnel, the safer option would be to push over the ball... which loses loose-head prop advantage.


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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
So you don't think that a scum loses power when the hooker has one leg extended forward to hook the ball back?


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I don't agree that hookers are extending their leg forward to hook the ball back. It's usually put where they don't need to hook. There was a scrum in a super game last week end, where the ball was actually put into the middle of the scrumm and it sat there while both packs attempted to push each other off the ball. BTW I have no problem with this as this is a pushing contest to win the ball.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
"Having the advantage" of the loosehead becomes a moot point if your hooker can't hook, because you've got 8 people pushing low and hard against them.

Back in the old days, when hookers actually hooked the opposition ball, it meant something. But if we persist with a narrow tunnel to put the ball down, we're just going to get two shoving contests, and a shitload of scrums where the ball just sits there.

I marvel that anyone can get their feet up with their shoulders that close to the ground. Let's not kill anyone trying to make it more difficult.

The advantage that the loose head give as scrums currently are played is that the hooker on the team the half back feeding the ball is closer and thus it is easier to put the ball in crooked without interference from the opposition. If the other hooker was closer he would have some chance at striking.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I don't agree that hookers are extending their leg forward to hook the ball back. It's usually put where they don't need to hook. There was a scrum in a super game last week end, where the ball was actually put into the middle of the scrumm and it sat there while both packs attempted to push each other off the ball. BTW I have no problem with this as this is a pushing contest to win the ball.


Evidently you didn't read my initial post..
The whole point of my comment was in reply to previous comments about the ball been fed straight down the middle of the scrum.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
So you're saying that refs are happy to give the side which already has a huge advantage, by having the loose head, the feed and can signal when the ball is being fed, should get another advantage by being allowed "a bit of bend and angle?:confused:
No. Show me where I said that? What I said was they were taking the hooker's safety into consideration. There's a hell of a lot more pressure on the scrum than there was a decade ago, and it can get dangerous for the hooker to lift a leg and extend it out to hook the ball. A number of players had raised this issue with referees, and instead of going back to the second-row feeds, they're taking that center line to be a little wider than a piece of string. The ball is still fed into the tunnel, but if it's fed directly to the feet of the hooker, that's a crooked feed (if the ref calls it).

The other side of that is if a team has won a scrum, isn't the ref also awarding the defending team if a strict down-the-center-of-the-tunnel approach is taken? If you have the better scrum, you'd be knocking on all day just to win tighthead after tighthead, effectively getting awarded for failing.

And given the scrum changes, we're seeing more defending teams win scrums as it is (at least in the first year -- not sure about now). So balls are being fed straighter -- but not always straight enough, and that's on refs; hookers are hooking again; and more scrums are being lost by the team with the feed, showing that they're still competitive. Those are all positives. Packs are still finding ways to reset scrums like a skipping record, but that's a different issue.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
No. Show me where I said that? What I said was they were taking the hooker's safety into consideration. There's a hell of a lot more pressure on the scrum than there was a decade ago, and it can get dangerous for the hooker to lift a leg and extend it out to hook the ball. A number of players had raised this issue with referees, and instead of going back to the second-row feeds, they're taking that center line to be a little wider than a piece of string. The ball is still fed into the tunnel, but if it's fed directly to the feet of the hooker, that's a crooked feed (if the ref calls it).

The other side of that is if a team has won a scrum, isn't the ref also awarding the defending team if a strict down-the-center-of-the-tunnel approach is taken? If you have the better scrum, you'd be knocking on all day just to win tighthead after tighthead, effectively getting awarded for failing.

And given the scrum changes, we're seeing more defending teams win scrums as it is (at least in the first year -- not sure about now). So balls are being fed straighter -- but not always straight enough, and that's on refs; hookers are hooking again; and more scrums are being lost by the team with the feed, showing that they're still competitive. Those are all positives. Packs are still finding ways to reset scrums like a skipping record, but that's a different issue.

You seem to still be advocating that the team with the feed and loose head should be given some sort of extra advantage because they are the non-offending team.
With respect, a scrum is supposed to be a method of restarting play after a minor infringement. The non-offending team get the loose head and the feed. That's their advantage. Beyond that it's supposed to be a 50/50 contest just like lineouts, rucks, the tackle etc. People rave on about that's what different about rugby - the contest for possession at every point. People also rave on about the scrum as if it's sacrosanct because it's this contest for possession, when in fact it's become nothing of the sort. Particularly in the NH, it's become a penalty winning contest.

Like anything in sport, when the authorities change the balance in an aspect of the game there is a ripple effect.

Let the half put the ball in crooked - opposition can't strike so they focus entirely on the push, opposition don't strike so 8 men shove means more pressure on hooker who does strike = hooking contest gone. No hooking contest = pushing only, but one team is allowed to put the ball in their own side so we get teams attempting to engineer penalties to obtain possession.

Almost every NH game I watch has the commentators congratulating player X for earning his side a scrum penalty - as if this is some sort of skill which should be rewarded.

A number of posters seem to have conceded that the scrum is no longer a 50/50 contest for possession, so let's all stop the pretence that it is.

As far as I can see the scrum serves 2 functions in the modern game:

1 It gets the fat blokes tired
2 It gives the kickers shots at goal (or kicks for touch in defence)
 
T

TOCC

Guest
QuickHands I read his post and that's not what he was advocating at all..




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Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
A number of posters seem to have conceded that the scrum is no longer a 50/50 contest for possession, so let's all stop the pretence that it is.


Not at all.

Here is what we think you're saying: "Must feed the ball down the middle to make it a fair contest"

OK that's fair enough. But here's the thing: once you feed it down the middle, with front rowers getting as low as they do these days, you're asking the hooker to risk his safety to hook. Once the hooker has a foot off the deck, the advantage in power goes to the opposing scrum because they'll push with 8. I've played every front row position, and know this to be the truth.

I've played with hookers who could strike for opposition ball, and do it well, but that was subbies and no-one in my division packed low enough to make it an issue. These days most professional hookers wouldn't know how, and don't care.

Here is what WE are saying: "If the tunnel down which you can feed is made slightly wider, but the feed must still be straight, it IS an even contest"

This is due to a couple of factors:

1) The attacking team's hooker will strike

2) The defending team's hooker will push

The advantage of having the hooker is offset by the advantage of having an 8-man push rather than a 7-man push/hold.

Therefore you still have your 50/50 contest.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
If we stick with these rules hookers will learn to strike properly again.
Half backs have never feed the scrum straight. EVER!
I don't think scrums are any lower than they were before the power hit.

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fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Our hooker always used the outside of the foot closest to the 9 when we were under pressure, it was then all about the timing

It was a bloody quick strike that used the speed of the ball to get it under the locks feet
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
If we stick with these rules hookers will learn to strike properly again.
Half backs have never feed the scrum straight. EVER!
I don't think scrums are any lower than they were before the power hit.


They're not any lower, but go back to the 90s before the power hit and see how high they're packing, and how different the body shape of a good hooker is.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Here is what we think you're saying: "Must feed the ball down the middle to make it a fair contest"

OK that's fair enough. But here's the thing: once you feed it down the middle, with front rowers getting as low as they do these days, you're asking the hooker to risk his safety to hook. Once the hooker has a foot off the deck, the advantage in power goes to the opposing scrum because they'll push with 8. I've played every front row position, and know this to be the truth.

I've played with hookers who could strike for opposition ball, and do it well, but that was subbies and no-one in my division packed low enough to make it an issue. These days most professional hookers wouldn't know how, and don't care.

Here is what WE are saying: "If the tunnel down which you can feed is made slightly wider, but the feed must still be straight, it IS an even contest"

This is due to a couple of factors:

1) The attacking team's hooker will strike

2) The defending team's hooker will push

The advantage of having the hooker is offset by the advantage of having an 8-man push rather than a 7-man push/hold.

Therefore you still have your 50/50 contest.

Yes that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that if referees are going to ignore this aspect of the scrum laws it has an impact on what follows. I'm also saying that it's not right that certain aspects of the scrum are refereed to the nth degree and others aren't.

I always find it comical that referees who give a huge amount of lattitude to how straight the scrum feed is, will pull up a lineout throw which deviates 1 degree from centre (often when it has no impact on what follows).

If we are going to let scrum penalties decide games, then let's at least enforce all the laws not just the ones which suit.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
You seem to still be advocating that the team with the feed and loose head should be given some sort of extra advantage because they are the non-offending team.
With respect, a scrum is supposed to be a method of restarting play after a minor infringement. The non-offending team get the loose head and the feed. That's their advantage. Beyond that it's supposed to be a 50/50 contest just like lineouts, rucks, the tackle etc.
etc. etc.

So what's your answer if a team has a stronger scrum, so they have no problem knocking the ball on, etc. in order to get a defensive scrum? Aren't you just awarding them even though they committed the offense? As long as the ball is fed into the tunnel, I'm not too concerned if the tunnel is a little wider and the team that has the feed has a slight advantage.

Another thing that I think gets missed is how the angle of the tunnel might shift from the camera position. We usually see a scrum from a camera angle on the ground behind the scrum half, and it at times looks like it's being fed in at an angle. But at times, if that same scrum is shown from above, we see that the scrum has shifted a bit and the tunnel is now at an angle from where it started. So the feed was straight down the tunnel, just not from the perspective of the ground-level camera.

I'm not saying crooked feeds aren't an issue, just that they're not as much of an issue as they used to be.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
etc. etc.

So what's your answer if a team has a stronger scrum, so they have no problem knocking the ball on, etc. in order to get a defensive scrum? Aren't you just awarding them even though they committed the offense?

I honestly don't follow what you're arguing here.

The scrum isn't guaranteed posession for the non-offending team. They have always been required to win the ball in the ensuing scrum.

I've never heard anyone advance this line of argument before.

Either it's a contest for possession or it isn't. If it's a contest for possession, then both sides must have a chance to win it. If we don't want it to be a contest for possession, but a guarantee of possession for the non-offending team, then we need to change the laws to relect that (which I don't support by the way).
 

Marcelo

Ken Catchpole (46)
According Rebels props, Timani is the strongest scrummager of the Rebels second row:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/super-rugby/super-rugby-season-2015-lopeti-timani-supplying-power-and-passion-for-melbourne-rebels/story-fn50ngyd-1227239004904

Interesting. Also now he weighs 123 kg, he earned 7 kg compared from the last year. Wikipedia says he weighs 116 kg, but is old news. Fox says 123 kg ATM.

He could be a real weapon at the scrum time. His weakness is his short height, but we need a real scrummager in the second row against Welshmen and Pomps. His short height could be covered by a blindside flanker who can be an option at the lineouts, someone like Higginbotham and why no? A number 8 who can jump at the lineout.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
On balance I like they way scrummaging is going, I like the competition, I love the static battle. I love the pressure

The only tweaks I could see is getting rid of the "bind" hit and the use of 'use it' quicker

At the moment sides are still trying to get a hit in, that leads to instability.

I would prefer sides working any advantage into something other than a penalty, maybe requiring the 9 to retire if his side's scrum is going backwards.

Lets see more 1/4 turns (to put the defending 7 a step behind) and more set piece 1st phase moves and less walking scrums forward until given the penalty
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Interesting. Also now he weighs 123 kg, he earned 7 kg compared from the last year. Wikipedia says he weighs 116 kg, but is old news. Fox says 123 kg ATM.

If Timani weighs 123kg, he'd look more like Vunipola.
 

Marcelo

Ken Catchpole (46)
If Timani weighs 123kg, he'd look more like Vunipola.


That says Fox Sports:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...melbourne-rebels/story-fn50ngyd-1227239004904

150227121816852695.jpg



Also Rebels website says the same:



150227122628315072.jpg


http://www.melbournerebels.com.au/team/lopeti-timani

But maybe you're his nutritionist or his personal trainer ;)
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
If it says it on the internet, it must be true.

Maybe he's smuggling some extra weight in his jheri curls.
 
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