Scrum Talk

[en_force_er]

Yep, read it. It's a bit weird and, at times difficult to read. The language is very formal. It's interesting in a scrum academic sense ( if there is such a thing), but you have to do a lot of reading to pull out the stuff that a coach might use. And then probably only a serious coach. It's good for the old props to read and quietly nod in agreement every now wind then.
Bottom line: I was disappointed. 2.5 stars.

Any literature you can read?

 

[Honest John]

I am amazed at how people such as the IRB complicate such a simple matter. If a ref cannot manage a few things at scrum time, then why is he there?

The engage needs to be straight - how many times do you see boring in (Ben Robbinson is the master). If the ref sees an arse sticking out something is going to go wrong - Ping It.

The Bind needs to be firm and on the body, not the arm - what is so difficult?

The ball comes in straight after the scrum is stable -

Frankly, between an assistant ref and the on field ref staring at a scrum, I am still flabbergasted at how often those in charge are bamboozled by this.

If the engage is straight and all front rows have bound, the chances of a collapse are minimal unless one pack is dominant... then guess what - they deserve to win that part of the contest. This all smacks of "evening everything out".

The dark art of the front row is soon to be whittled away until we have a League style "flop together for a breather". If you win the hit fairly, drive straight, keep your head above your hips and keep your shape under pressure scrum's will work. No need for tinkering

 

[en_force_er]

I am amazed at how people such as the IRB complicate such a simple matter. If a ref cannot manage a few things at scrum time, then why is he there?

The engage needs to be straight - how many times do you see boring in (Ben Robbinson is the master). If the ref sees an arse sticking out something is going to go wrong - Ping It.

The Bind needs to be firm and on the body, not the arm - what is so difficult?

The ball comes in straight after the scrum is stable -

Frankly, between an assistant ref and the on field ref staring at a scrum, I am still flabbergasted at how often those in charge are bamboozled by this.

If the engage is straight and all front rows have bound, the chances of a collapse are minimal unless one pack is dominant. then guess what - they deserve to win that part of the contest. This all smacks of "evening everything out".

The dark art of the front row is soon to be whittled away until we have a League style "flop together for a breather". If you win the hit fairly, drive straight, keep your head above your hips and keep your shape under pressure scrum's will work. No need for tinkering

Have you ever reffed 4 guys trying to work their way around the rules? Plus, let's remember you can't see 2 of them.

Everything in life sounds simple when you pick it to pieces.

 

[Pfitzy]

The engage needs to be straight - how many times do you see boring in (Ben Robbinson is the master).

Actually Robinson is one of the straightest looseheads going around. He's shorter than some of the 190cm tight head monsters used these days for lineout lifting, and he makes them pay for it by simply getting under them and driving them back over their second row. Which is not to say he doesn't drive in and up occasionally, but then I've propped against Tony Daly and that cunning old bastard did it to me when the ref wasn't looking too.

If you want to go look at some overrated scrummagers, check out Mako "Sidewinder" Vunipola and Tony "The Myth" Woodcock. Both must have gone to the Bill Young School of Perpendicular Propping.

As far as the rest of it goes, en_force_er has it right - trying to manage multiple blokes cheating their arses off in this sort of close contact is difficult. Especially if the ref has never packed a scrum in his life.

Assistants are useful to a degree - but they've got offside lines to watch as well. Look at the penalty Robinson conceded in Test #1. It was a clear case of Jones rolling his shoulder in and collapsing, and neither the ref (standing on that side) or the AR saw it, because they were watching different things.

I'd have to say that reffing a scrum is far more difficult than propping one.

 

[Sully]

You're dreaming if you think myth is a bad scummager.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Pfitzy]

I didn't say he was bad. But he's hardly beating blokes outright - he just turns in and hammers it, and gets away with it. Chooses his moment like all good looseheads do. Remember when Baxter smashed him and Woody still got the penalties?

Wyatt Crocket keeps getting picked for the All Blacks, but he wouldn't get into our top 3 looseheads except he's a big tall bugger for lineout lifting and is great around the park.

 

[Honest John]

Have you ever reffed 4 guys trying to work their way around the rules? Plus, let's remember you can't see 2 of them.

Everything in life sounds simple when you pick it to pieces.

I agree with one person looking but is that not what the assistant ref staring at a scrum is there for? to look and adjudicate on the side the ref is not? Its not rocket science but then again... how many refs at any senior level have ever been in a pack, let alone the front row.

Push straight, bind on the body not the arm, don't shove until the ball is in, feed it straight.... bugger me... its a stable scrum with the better team winning....

I do agree that the front row will always try to find a way to "bend the laws"..... but that is what the ref et al are there to administer. Sorry but I dont see what all the fuss is about.

RE: Pfitzy - agreed re Vunipola - should not be on the paddock but it is funny that when Joubert warned the Lions pack for hingeing and told them that the next time it happens, regardless, there will be a penalty... well golly gosh.. the Aus from row dives for the deck like a Messerschmidt Bf 109 pilot with a Spitfire up his backside.... please have a look at that scrum prior to hurling invective... cleaver play on their part but poor poor refing by a bloke that is generally a good ref but still has very little idea of the dark side upfront.

 

[en_force_er]

I agree with one person looking but is that not what the assistant ref staring at a scrum is there for? to look and adjudicate on the side the ref is not? Its not rocket science but then again. how many refs at any senior level have ever been in a pack, let alone the front row.

Push straight, bind on the body not the arm, don't shove until the ball is in, feed it straight.. bugger me. its a stable scrum with the better team winning..

I do agree that the front row will always try to find a way to "bend the laws"... but that is what the ref et al are there to administer. Sorry but I dont see what all the fuss is about.

I think the assistant's main role at scrum time is policing the offside like for the backs actually.

I agree about needing more prop referees. I wouldn't mind some fat out ref sitting on halfway and being called on to officiate the side of the scrum the ref isn't on but it would probably slow the game down, which is already an issue in the entertainment side of the game.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Great Idea to have a scrum ref. Some post rugby career options for our fatties.

Don't worry about them slowing the game down, just put them on one of those fancy segways that the cameramen have. He'd be there in no time at all, not to mention the fun the punters would have when they come an inevitable cropper.

 

[BPC]

Actually Robinson is one of the straightest looseheads going around. He's shorter than some of the 190cm tight head monsters used these days for lineout lifting, and he makes them pay for it by simply getting under them and driving them back over their second row. Which is not to say he doesn't drive in and up occasionally, but then I've propped against Tony Daly and that cunning old bastard did it to me when the ref wasn't looking too.

If you want to go look at some overrated scrummagers, check out Mako "Sidewinder" Vunipola and Tony "The Myth" Woodcock. Both must have gone to the Bill Young School of Perpendicular Propping.

As far as the rest of it goes, en_force_er has it right - trying to manage multiple blokes cheating their arses off in this sort of close contact is difficult. Especially if the ref has never packed a scrum in his life.

Assistants are useful to a degree - but they've got offside lines to watch as well. Look at the penalty Robinson conceded in Test #1. It was a clear case of Jones rolling his shoulder in and collapsing, and neither the ref (standing on that side) or the AR saw it, because they were watching different things.

I'd have to say that reffing a scrum is far more difficult than propping one.

Robinson, and Woodcock to a greater degree, are better known for dropping the bind, touching the ground for balance then driving up rather than boring in sideways. Vunipola seems to have been told that straight incorporates a margin of error of +/- 45 degrees.

 

[Honest John]

Great Idea to have a scrum ref. Some post rugby career options for our fatties.

Don't worry about them slowing the game down, just put them on one of those fancy segways that the cameramen have. He'd be there in no time at all, not to mention the fun the punters would have when they come an inevitable cropper.

Beer and Pie on the sideline and wander on when required - there is life after playing.. I hope that the IRB are listening... just no stretchy shirts and tight shorts - would not want to get the crowd all a lather

 

[Hugh Jarse]

How much if any of our current issue with the fatties can be laid at the feet of the Under 19 Laws variations WRT scrummaging?

I assume that all the other countries in IRB also observe Under 19 Scrum Laws as well, so all countries should be on an equal playing field at Under 20 level, yet we seem to be underprepared.

How many NGS boys are Props? There are not all that many in the Sydney NGS squad that I am aware of.

Where do our future scrum gods get their specialist technical training if NGS/HPU are not doing it?

 

[kiap]

http://www.taluebookstore.com/featured/the-art-of-scrummaging.html

Has anyone read Topo Rodriguez book "The art of scrummaging"?

Is it worth buying? Is it useful for a junior village club coach, subbies park level coach, 1st XV schoolboy, village club battler, Colt or Grade Player or all of the above?

Talking of Topo and scrummaging, he made a post in the comments section of one of Spiro's articles on The Roar today:

RE: My book The ART of SCRUMMAGING (www.talubooks.com). Not only has been ignored by the “Scrum Wise” people in this country but between 1997 and 2010 have made 4 specific offers to Australian Rugby to set up a SCRUM ACADEMY with all the other Scrum Gurus available. One of these initiatives was named Australian Rugby Academy (September 2005) with a brief to work at “Grassroots” level, without touching Elite Rugby. Hence it would have been a great feeder for all representative levels. Three of our Directors made a presentation to the ARU but all we received was: SILENT, GOLDEN and ELOQUENT SILENT.​

​

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/09/16/spiro-the-wallabies-claim-a-win-just-but-the-scrum-is-terrible/​

Damn it. We need something like this more than ever.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Is fellow Gaggerland Citizen, topo, the great man himself?

If so, give up on the Roar. Post here - exclusively.

 

[cyclopath]

Is fellow Gaggerland Citizen, topo, the great man himself?

If so, give up on the Roar. Post here - exclusively.

No, but he knows a thing or two about scrummaging.

 

[topo]

Is fellow Gaggerland Citizen, topo, the great man himself?

If so, give up on the Roar. Post here - exclusively.

Sadly, no. Just a huge fan of the great man who has packed into a few scrums and watched a few thousand over the years. I'm the sick bastard in the crowd yelling "take the scrum" every time there is a penalty (with the exception of last Saturday night).
I've read Topo's book and it's not easy. A bit of a mixture of genius and weirdness all expressed in very formal English that doesn't flow well. There are enough pearls in there, however, to justify the struggle.
My son is a decent prop and there's lots in there that he likes.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sadly, no. Just a huge fan of the great man who has packed into a few scrums and watched a few thousand over the years. I'm the sick bastard in the crowd yelling "take the scrum" every time there is a penalty (with the exception of last Saturday night).
I've read Topo's book and it's not easy. A bit of a mixture of genius and weirdness all expressed in very formal English that doesn't flow well. There are enough pearls in there, however, to justify the struggle.
My son is a decent prop and there's lots in there that he likes.

Mine has just been delivered!

 

[Baldric]

Mine has just been delivered!

Your son or your book. Either way, congratulations.

 

[Quick Hands]

No, but he knows a thing or two about scrummaging.

Pity he didn't go to Shore, he'd be on the payroll already.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Your son or your book. Either way, congratulations.

The book: otherwise it'd be in the proud parents thread! I may post there when I've read it.