Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
fatprop, as a back I'm fascinated as always by the black arts. Why does it take longer?
Scrum tactics
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fatprop, as a back I'm fascinated as always by the black arts. Why does it take longer?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Because the 8 has to move the ball from the left side to the right and/or the ball has to travel a little further through a less clear path.
It also involves the 8lifting 1 foot which was considered a disadvantage - although he probably had to do that anyway to stop the ball flying out the back of the scrum.
I dont think there's much in it but it requires the other 7 forwards to maintain concentration and to be prepared for a second shove. This was an issue and I think even under the laws played most recently the Wobblies pack had a habit of relaxing once they thought the ball had been won.
I reckon that if your scrum has parity you should this channel it because it prevents the other half from getting close enough to stuff your 9s pass.
In days of yore the teams I played in favoured channel 3 ball particularly on the left side of the field.
fatprop it occurs to me that the requirement for the other side to be back 5m at the scrum may tip the balance in favour of Ch 3 ball if a scrum has parity because the potential improvement in the quality of the ball is enhanced by the opposing backs having to travel 5m more than they did in the olden days.
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Channel 1 goes straight down the loose head channel and straight out between the LH lock and the openside, it is quick but closer to the opposing 9 (but the openside can stick his arse out making the opposing 9 go a long way around or just scrag his jersey to slow him)
The others (2 - the ball is channelled through the feet of the loose head and then to the eight man or 3 - The ball is channelled between the hookers feet ,and then exits between the tight head lock and 6's feet) move the ball diagonally through the scrum, with a good scrum 2 ball will sit under the 8 feet (like the Lions) for him to hold and play with, or be moved across well away from the opposing 9 as 3 ball.
The movement diagonally is the issue for a scrum under pressure, locks kick it back, the bad guys second push, there is too much pressure and the ball can't get back and the scrum collapses under pressure etc etc
I believe we need to go back to basics, assume the scrum on our ball will be under pressure (it will, it isn't that good) and just learn to crawl again on our ball, no f*cking around, just in and out. Let Genia be an old fashioned 9, and use the quick ball to set our backs off
the challenge is assuming parity, I would assume for the moment we don't and plan accordingly
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I assume the law about flankers not being able to change their packing angle remains?
I guess so, but it doesn't take much to slow the 9 down the 1/2 a sec necessary
Dam0
Dave Cowper (27)
You are a funny guy IS.
Mank
Ted Thorn (20)
I don't think the trial laws go far enough and we'll still see baffling and frustrating scrum penalties.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Also intersting to hear the comments of players after ITM cup last night saying how much extra pushing there is involved. With everyone having to stay on longer I can see more points scored from 5m scrums, if loosies try to just hang on so they can defend, you can see pushovers, and if they stay hard on pushing could open the close in defence!!! I can also see good scrummaging Locks being even more important.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Any professional prop (or lock) who assumes the mantle of parity, at ANY time during the execution of a scrum, should probably stop getting paid to play and go to league or darts or something.
Even when all you want is "steady" ball, the aim should be to demoralise your opponent at all times. I hate this scrummaging for penalties tactic and believe it detracts from the front rower's minor duty of providing possession to the backs so they can score tries... though most often they cock it up and you find yourself jogging back towards your own try line - at worst for another scrum, but sometimes for pointless things like lineouts.
Rather it should be an exercise in emasculating your foe for 80 minutes and once the ball is out of the danger zone (i.e. past your feet), you should be concentrating on how best to make your opponent never want to pack another scrum against you. The perfect time for this is after the ball has gone, and the jackals have detatched - then you get a free shot once the ref has pissed off.
Obviously, the props among us know there is nothing better on the planet than packing scrums (except the love of our fans), but it isn't always easy and sometimes you'd rather be at the bottom of a ruck when your opponent is a 130kg ex-NPC Maori who deadlifts diesel transmissions for a hobby.
Even when all you want is "steady" ball, the aim should be to demoralise your opponent at all times. I hate this scrummaging for penalties tactic and believe it detracts from the front rower's minor duty of providing possession to the backs so they can score tries... though most often they cock it up and you find yourself jogging back towards your own try line - at worst for another scrum, but sometimes for pointless things like lineouts.
Rather it should be an exercise in emasculating your foe for 80 minutes and once the ball is out of the danger zone (i.e. past your feet), you should be concentrating on how best to make your opponent never want to pack another scrum against you. The perfect time for this is after the ball has gone, and the jackals have detatched - then you get a free shot once the ref has pissed off.
Obviously, the props among us know there is nothing better on the planet than packing scrums (except the love of our fans), but it isn't always easy and sometimes you'd rather be at the bottom of a ruck when your opponent is a 130kg ex-NPC Maori who deadlifts diesel transmissions for a hobby.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Shit I hope the scrums get better than that rubbish that was served up tonight.
Some things the Refs really need to look at to have a contest:-
1) enforce the offside at the scrum. How can a flanker and the opposition 9 tackle the 8 as he reaches for the ball at the back of the scrum. It can only happen if they are offside.
2) ensure the flankers remain bound to THEIR prop. It isn't legal for the flanker to slide up onto the opposition prop and it must be penalised.
FFS get this right, those scrums were dire tonight.
Some things the Refs really need to look at to have a contest:-
1) enforce the offside at the scrum. How can a flanker and the opposition 9 tackle the 8 as he reaches for the ball at the back of the scrum. It can only happen if they are offside.
2) ensure the flankers remain bound to THEIR prop. It isn't legal for the flanker to slide up onto the opposition prop and it must be penalised.
FFS get this right, those scrums were dire tonight.
Bruwheresmycar
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Tonight proves professional props have little interest in keeping scrums up. It couldn't be any simpler, every other grade on the planet has got it right so far.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
After watching the replay and the Argentina V SA game, I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the outcome so far.
I am not ready to discard the changes (and I don't they will be discarded) but the officiating was still pedantic and at times baffling.
1)Pedantic on straight feeds. On most of the occasions they blew for not straight the hookers still had to hook the ball back, it wasn't fed under the feet of the front row. Less pedantry please.
2)FFS referee the offside laws at the scrum. That means flankers stay bound on THEIR prop. That means halfbacks stay behind the ball. How can a 9 tackle the 8 as he reaches for the ball if he is onside. It isn't possible.
3) Whip wheels and walk around-s. push straight and square, that means both sides. If the scrum pirouettes on the spot somebody isn't pushing.
The scrum in both of last nights tests were a joke, nobody knew what was going on, took as long or longer to pack and made a mockery of the contest. The old timers had competitive scrums packed completed and/or won in the same time it now gets these professionals to pack. In fact in the longest examples the Wallabies scrum scored the push over try against Wales in 1984.
I am not ready to discard the changes (and I don't they will be discarded) but the officiating was still pedantic and at times baffling.
1)Pedantic on straight feeds. On most of the occasions they blew for not straight the hookers still had to hook the ball back, it wasn't fed under the feet of the front row. Less pedantry please.
2)FFS referee the offside laws at the scrum. That means flankers stay bound on THEIR prop. That means halfbacks stay behind the ball. How can a 9 tackle the 8 as he reaches for the ball if he is onside. It isn't possible.
3) Whip wheels and walk around-s. push straight and square, that means both sides. If the scrum pirouettes on the spot somebody isn't pushing.
The scrum in both of last nights tests were a joke, nobody knew what was going on, took as long or longer to pack and made a mockery of the contest. The old timers had competitive scrums packed completed and/or won in the same time it now gets these professionals to pack. In fact in the longest examples the Wallabies scrum scored the push over try against Wales in 1984.
Bruwheresmycar
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I'm sure the refs agree the feeds were a bit strict. The half doesn't need to be offside, tackling a man without possession is illegal itself, I'm sure it can be cleaned up as well.
I doubt it will make a difference though. In the itm cup the scrums are a much better contest because the semi professional props aren't afraid of walking backwards when under pressure. After this round i wonder if there is a correlation between the number of super15 players in a front row, and the number of collapses.
There must be something refs can do to encourage positive test scrumming. But when 99% of other props in the world don't have the same problem. You've got to wonder how many changes to the law need to be made before everyone starts questioning why the laws are being used as a tool to service the trivial issues of the 1%.
The test arena seems to be the only failed trial so far.
I doubt it will make a difference though. In the itm cup the scrums are a much better contest because the semi professional props aren't afraid of walking backwards when under pressure. After this round i wonder if there is a correlation between the number of super15 players in a front row, and the number of collapses.
There must be something refs can do to encourage positive test scrumming. But when 99% of other props in the world don't have the same problem. You've got to wonder how many changes to the law need to be made before everyone starts questioning why the laws are being used as a tool to service the trivial issues of the 1%.
The test arena seems to be the only failed trial so far.
XVProps
Herbert Moran (7)
FilthRugby
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I think Kearnsy says it well. I really do not like the new scrum laws. Crouch, Touch, Set is the best mode of scrimmaging in my mind. The hit=the scrum, take that away and it is nothing but a rubbish rugby league type push fest.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Wow, can't disagree more. Where's the "dislike" button?
The scrum is NOT the hit. The scrum should be what happens AFTER the hit.
Take away the hit, and you go back to what it is was prior to the hit - wrestling and pushing over the ball. Were the scrums contested then? Yes. Nothing like a league scrum.
Kearns should know better, he scrummed before the power hit really took off. Amazing that Kearns didn't get it. Kearns is completely, utterly wrong about the scrum, as per what Moore said - there's still a good contest, and a flanker would get butchered by a prop.
The scrum resets due to not straight feeds - well, the halfbacks had been warned. Kearns should blame the players, that is where the fault lies. Not straight feeds should be penalised - they take away the contest for the ball.
Some of the other sloppy Wallaby scrums was becuase the players, including the number 8, weren't used to the clean channel ball they get from the hooker not needing to properly hook. Well, suck it up princesses and learn how to deal with a hooked ball instead of a halfback feeding it down a channel.
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