Scotland v Australia - Sunday 26 November 1:30am AEDT

[TOCC]

scrum laws have drastically evolved over the past 7 years, guys like Ben Alexander weren't false dawns, its more a case that their physique and technique doesn't lend well to the new laws introduced IMO. Going back to 2007 it was all about the hit and chase, that was the first year of new laws where Dunning and Shepherdson were really found out.. More recent changes in 2013 removed the physical advantage that taller guys like Andy Sheridan and Ben Alexander had at scrum time.

 

[Lindommer]

Well said, TSR. Your history lesson brings up a very valid point about coaches, and others, mucking props around. I well recall a test during Deans' reign when Kepu started at LHP and Alexander wore the 3 jumper; at the time I asked "Why?". The same thing seems to be happening to both Robertson and Ala'alatoa. Tom put in some marvellous performances at THP for the Tahs in his debut season last year yet the various brains-trusts think his future's on the other side of the scrum. Ditto for Allan but with the numbers reversed. Why? Good THPs are like hens' teeth in Australia, and Kepu's not getting any younger. And they take years to perfect their craft in the most difficult positions on the rugby field.

I don't understand what the coaches are doing with these two young props.

 

[TSR]

Unfortunately it is not that uncommon - although to be fair previously there was a vested interest in a prop having ability either side of the scrum because there was only one prop on the bench.

If I recall correctly Slipper, Dunning, Baxter & Faulkner have all been played at test level and struggled at their non preferred side (not 100% sure I am correct on Baxter). Plus, as you say Kepu who I think regressed for a while after being moved to LHP.

 

[TOCC]

Greg Holmes was originally a loosehead prop and James Slipper a tighthead prop, Stiles arrived at the Reds and swapped them around, it was that swap that earned Holmes his next wallaby jersey 10years after his last one.

Between Sio and Ala'alatoa I actually thought it was Sio who should have swapped sides to tighthead prop, given the quality of both scrummagers it was inevitable that one of them was going to swap times to maximise both their time on the pitch.

 

[TSR]

scrum laws have drastically evolved over the past 7 years, guys like Ben Alexander weren't false dawns, its more a case that their physique and technique doesn't lend well to the new laws introduced IMO. Going back to 2007 it was all about the hit and chase, that was the first year of new laws where Dunning and Shepherdson were really found out.. More recent changes in 2013 removed the physical advantage that taller guys like Andy Sheridan and Ben Alexander had at scrum time.

Rule changes can & do play havoc with front rowers effectiveness. But I believe it was actually injury that disrupted Robinson & Alexander who, for a very short while were really making a name for themselves. Particularly Robinson who, for a short time was considered by at least some to be the worlds premier LHP. I believe Alexander got injured first and the Robinson shortly after and they never dominated again. In 2011 WC Deans had the chance to put Alexander back to LHP but, as noted by Lindo above, decided to instead put Kepu there. It was mystifying.

 

[TSR]

Greg Holmes was originally a loosehead prop and James Slipper a tighthead prop, Stiles arrived at the Reds and swapped them around, it was that swap that earned Holmes his next wallaby jersey 10years after his last one.

Between Sio and Ala'alatoa I actually thought it was Sio who should have swapped sides to tighthead prop, given the quality of both scrummagers it was inevitable that one of them was going to swap times to maximise both their time on the pitch.

I’m pretty sure Slipper was always clear his preferred side was LHP.

 

[TOCC]

On the subject of the test match, I expect Tupou will be on the bench and get his first cap, I don't think Cheika flew him over mid-way through the tour just to watch from the stands again when he could have been on holidays.

 

[TOCC]

I’m pretty sure Slipper was always clear his preferred side was LHP.

Unsure whether his personal preference was LHP, but besides his debut in 2010 Slippers next 40 caps(2011-2014) were at THP.. It was only in 2014 when Nick Stiles joined the team as forwards coach that he swapped Holmes and Slipper around. Slipper still has more caps as a THP(48) then he does at LHP(41)

 

[TSR]

Yep - Slipper played his first tests at THP too, I’m sure. But always maintained he was a LHP and that was proven to be right.

Holmes already played THP (but was originally a LH). He was THP in the 2011 season . Ben Daley was the starting loose head. Holmes would come off and go back on at LHP to finish out the game.

For some reason I thought Holmes missed the final, but that doesn’t seem right.

 

[TSR]

Sorry - I’ve taken this completely off the thread topic.

 

[TOCC]

Holmes already played THP (but was originally a LH). He was THP in the 2011 season . Ben Daley was the starting loose head. Holmes would come off and go back on at LHP to finish out the game.

For some reason I thought Holmes missed the final, but that doesn’t seem right.

For most of the 2011 season Slipper was starting THP, Daley was starting LHP and Holmes was reserve prop. In 2011 there was still only one prop reserve, which was Holmes. Slipper would play 80 more often then not, and Holmes would sub on for Daley most games, but obviously would have also subbed on for Slipper a few times as well.

Slipper was the one who missed the 2011 finals, only time Holmes started at THP in 2011 was in the two finals matches. I remember a specific interview with Ewen McKenzie about it, talking about Holmes and how he was one he was most proud of his performance in the GF for playing in a positions which isn’t his usual one.


And yes this has gone off on a tangent, my point for mentioning it was that there are recent examples of props swapping either side of the scrum which have benefited them. Holmes swapping back to THP in 2014 reinvigorated his test career.

 

[Slim 293]

Extremely - but he was originally a LHP and he was moved across to THP. There was a brief period (2009 I think - a single EOYT if I recall correctly) when Benn Robinson & Ben Alexander a scrummed brilliantly, including dismantling Andy Sheridan (who was admittedly underdone - but they also demolished a couple of other scrums from memory). It was joyous.

But it is was the cruelest of false dawns and our scrum soon resumed being a joke and Alexander was regularly found wanting technically. Generally speaking his biggest issues were that he overextended and that he got a (probably deserved) bad rep with refs so, whenever the scrum went down he was assumed to be the problem (and often was). The other thing was that he actually normally did fine at super level, so I think he was persisted with at THP in the hope that he would eventually convert his form to test level.

I think lots of people still hold the opinion, with a far bit of justification I think, that he was a really good loose head who was converted into an average TH.

That 2009 EOYT was one of the Wobs best scrummaging performances in recent memory....... they absolutely monstered the UK and Irish scrums on that tour......... but........

The second row consisted of Chisholm and Horwill, with Chisholm running the lineout - which he'd never done before........... and it did not go well.

 

[TSR]

For most of the 2011 season Slipper was starting THP, Daley was starting LHP and Holmes was reserve prop. In 2011 there was still only one prop reserve, which was Holmes. Slipper would play 80 more often then not, and Holmes would sub on for Daley most games, but obviously would have also subbed on for Slipper a few times as well.

Slipper was the one who missed the 2011 finals, only time Holmes started at THP in 2011 was in the two finals matches. I remember a specific interview with Ewen McKenzie about it, talking about Holmes and how he was one he was most proud of his performance in the GF for playing in a positions which isn’t his usual one.


And yes this has gone off on a tangent, my point for mentioning it was that there are recent examples of props swapping either side of the scrum which have benefited them. Holmes swapping back to THP in 2014 reinvigorated his test career.

No worries TOCC. I stand corrected on the above. And you make a fair point - sometimes these things do work out.

With regards to Robertson though I’m not sure it has paid dividends to date. Maybe it does just need time.

 

[TOCC]

No certainly hasn’t benefited Robertson unfortunately, he is far better suited to THP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think that can be looked at in isolation though. Robertson has ended up on the loose head side because we have a need there. Kepu and Ala'alatoa are both strong selections at THP and we're missing Slipper at LHP.

Robertson reverting to the LHP side for the Tahs came about due to the return of Kepu and the fact that the team was better with him starting compared to sitting on the bench and getting 20-30 minutes behind Kepu.

We have a fair amount of talent coming through at THP right now and less at LHP. Slipper may well lock down the spot in the 23 again with Sio and we'll be pretty well placed with that but it seems like guys like Robertson, Ainsley, Faulkner, Tupou etc. all might get more opportunity if they can also play LHP.

 

[Derpus]

Sorry - I’ve taken this completely off the thread topic.

I believe i started by asking a dumb question.

 

[TSR]

I don't think that can be looked at in isolation though. Robertson has ended up on the loose head side because we have a need there. Kepu and Ala'alatoa are both strong selections at THP and we're missing Slipper at LHP.

Robertson reverting to the LHP side for the Tahs came about due to the return of Kepu and the fact that the team was better with him starting compared to sitting on the bench and getting 20-30 minutes behind Kepu.

We have a fair amount of talent coming through at THP right now and less at LHP. Slipper may well lock down the spot in the 23 again with Sio and we'll be pretty well placed with that but it seems like guys like Robertson, Ainsley, Faulkner, Tupou etc. all might get more opportunity if they can also play LHP.

I agree BH, you can't look at things in isolation. But I think that it is questionable that we needed to make the move, and it is certainly questionable that it has produced a result. I don't think you can argue he has proved to be a better option then Cowan, Smith or Faulker would have been (or indeed Alaalatao's if he had stayed at LHP). I do think at this point in time that Robertson probably should be moved back to THP for his long term development and Australia & NSW look for other LH alternatives.

I don't agree with your last statement, unless that is their stronger side. I note It was reported Faulkner moved for that exact reason - his preference is LHP. LHP & THP are specialists in the modern game.

I have always assumed that the decision to pick Alaalatao & Robertson on their non preferred side allowed both to go back and be starting props at their super teams with a view that both would get more game time & develop.

In Alaalatao's case I think you can say it has been relatively successful. I am not convinced that it has still been the best thing for him, ACT or the Wallabies (Brumbies already had a number of Super level THPs - but I note one of them was Alexander who they could comfortably switch back) but it has been reasonably successful, so I'll credit that as a win.

In Robertson's case I think they have just weakened one spot to strengthen another. Reserve props play a very important role in the modern game. And they still get plenty of game time & plenty of development opportunity. They will often start as part of the season's player management system.

It seems to me that Robertson has regressed since he was switched. Instead of providing valuable back up at THP for the Tahs and developing into the future cornerstone of their pack, he is a make shift option. Not a bad one mind you, but he definitely isn't showing the potential he was when he started. Would it have been hard to find an alternate LHP. Possibly. But then finding a reliable back up THP at the Tahs hasn't been beer and skittles either. This puts a lot of pressure on Kepu.

As always, everything is easier in hindsight. i don't think Robertson is going as badly as some comments suggest. But he's certainly not showing anything to say he is more than a gap filler at this stage.

Maybe in 12 months I'll be proven wrong. I guess we'll see.

 

[pissedoffihavetoregister]

So if thor debuts he will replace alalatoa then?

 

[Brumby Runner]

If he debuts, I for one would prefer to see Ala'alatoa cover the LH side on the bench in place of Tom Robertson.

 

[TSR]

If he debuts, I for one would prefer to see Ala'alatoa cover the LH side on the bench in place of Tom Robertson.

I did consider that BR. If Tupou comes in that does seem the most logical move.

But it just seems you are then mucking Ala'alatoa around. I’m sure he wouldn’t see it that way and would be happy to take whatever jersey is passed to him.