School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Inside Shoulder]

Okay - I think I better understand both sides of the argument by now (more or less) - but what do you do when you have a talented young child and would like him to enter a GPS school and the only way that would be possible would be via a scholarship?

I don't want to get into a debate about 'non-GPS schools also develop great players' or 'you don't need to go to a GPS school.' I know, I know, I get that. But if my son was offered a scholarship, why wouldn't I take it if I thought it would help him both academically and with his rugby development?

I believe most scholarships these days are not full scholarships (correct me if I'm wrong here), which therefore still requires a financial commitment - great! My niece has a 50% academic scholarship to a academic school on the Gold Coast, so why couldn't my son be given the same chance to receive sports scholarship when that's what he is good at?

I must admit, I totally disagree with 'stacking' in the final years - I couldn't imagine what that would be like as a player who has been looking forward to his final year/s in the first XV to have that taken away.

Anyway, it appears there are many perspectives and points of view on this matter. and that is mine

No one begrudges the kid the supposedly better education, but be sure that's what you're getting and beware the pressure to perform for the benefit of the sad old boys, still recalling their past indifferent rugby careers, that 200k worth of education buys.


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[lincoln]

Somewhat segueing but my Korean intern informed me today her brother has in the last year gone to HK twice to trial for a Australian school rugby scholarship.
Given the recent announcement re more foreign players for the Force and Rebels maybe the Sydney GPS schools should put up or shut up. In that if they want to be part of the pathway then they should get serious about what outcomes they can produce. Would be interested to hear from Qld GAGRs as to how many foreign boys in the comp there move onto to higher levels.

 

[Tashara]

No one begrudges the kid the supposedly better education, but be sure that's what you're getting and beware the pressure to perform for the benefit of the sad old boys, still recalling their past indifferent rugby careers, that 200k worth of education buys.

Fair enough. I hope that's not always the case.

 

[Hugie]

My view is that the biggest barrier to the growth of rugby in Australia is that of perception. It is perceived to be an elitist sport, run by the elites for the benifit of the elites (this doesn't stand up to testing but the perception roles on). the cultivation of this goes back 100 years. Obviously anyone who wants to call themselves a "Great Public School" likes this perception, it's what they're selling, however it is enormously damaging to the overall growth of the game. Until this perception is cut out of the game union will continue to flounder in Australia. Now with Bill Pulver getting the job, the perception is just further reinforced.

Club Rugby union should be strong enough that each Great Public School could have all first XV on scholarhips (from the clubs) without a loss of strength in clubland rugby. It isn't the case.

On a case by case basis the scholarships aren't particularly a problem (some boys will respond well some badly).

BUT "all in all they're just another brick in the wall."

 

[sootyanddave]

6 of the elite School will supply 50% of NSW Schoolboys squad this year.
maybe the facts support the perception?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My view is that the biggest barrier to the growth of rugby in Australia is that of perception. It is perceived to be an elitist sport, run by the elites for the benifit of the elites (this doesn't stand up to testing but the perception roles on).

Really?
The only quibble you could have with the perception being the reality is by reference to a different definition of elitist than the one that springs immediately to my mind, I would have thought.
The influence of the private schools far outweighs their proportion in society and is far greater than in any other sport, I would have thought.
But I look forward to being set straight.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

6 of the elite School will supply 50% of NSW Schoolboys squad this year.
maybe the facts support the perception?

The perception that it is all about AAGPS is popular but inaccurate.
There was a fair amount of discussion a while back on the selection bias thread. Check it out if you are interested.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...squads-unfairness-etc.8261/page-7#post-382713

CTPE did some counting for us based on 2012 Open Schoolboys tournament.

We could look at the starters, or just the forwards or just the bench or perhaps only halfbacks or any category you want.but I'll leave you with this - Both NSW and QLD each had 46 players in their two squads - 92 players from 32 different schools.

George Smith proved that the “best” 69 under 16 kids in NSW last year came from 39 different schools.
The top 100 NZ Schoolboys under 17 in 2012 came from 51 different schools.
The top 138 players in Aust Opens championships Div 1 teams in 2012 came from 83 different schools.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Hugh Jarse my comment was at administration rather than players - from my long whingeing you probably already knew that

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Inside Shoulder my post was not in response to yours but with previous reference to the perception that 6 of the elite schools will supply 50% of the NSW Schoolboys squad this year. Attending a GPS (Div 1) school and making the 1st XV, with or without financial assistance, is no guarantee of representative selection.

I also thought that until the full facts on which schools selected players attended were laid out.

For representative selection, Good skills, hard work, fitness, and a fair degree of luck is needed more than a GPS secret handshake, or membership of the so called Manu's Koala Club.

I concur with your view that certain elite schools may have a disproportionate influence on our game.

I constantly thank them for this, because if not for them, the sport would have disappeared up its own fundamental orifice if it was left solely up to ARU, NSW RU, SRU (and their associated Junior RU affliates AJRU, NSW JRU and SJRU).

When the administration implodes under the burden of its own self importance, there is hope that those nasty disproportionately Influential Elite Private Schools will have maintained the ability to resurrect the game.

 

[I like to watch]

Inside Shoulder my post was not in response to yours but with previous reference to the perception that 6 of the elite schools will supply 50% of the NSW Schoolboys squad this year. Attending a GPS (Div 1) school and making the 1st XV, with or without financial assistance, is no guarantee of representative selection.
What's your prediction? I reckon the bookies would have the line at 22 boys.I would back the overs on this.

I also thought that until the full facts on which schools selected players attended were laid out.
What does that mean?
For representative selection, Good skills, hard work, fitness, and a fair degree of luck is needed more than a GPS secret handshake, or membership of the so called Manu's Koala Club.
So? Who ever claimed GPS boys did not work hard,were not fit and had no skills?
I concur with your view that certain elite schools may have a disproportionate influence on our game.
That is self evident.

I constantly thank them for this, because if not for them, the sport would have disappeared up its own fundamental orifice if it was left solely up to ARU, NSW RU, SRU (and their associated Junior RU affliates AJRU, NSW JRU and SJRU).
I call bullshit.
How many of these elite players only came to the sport due to their GPS School?
Many of these kids left their Village clubs due totally to the GPS Schools policy.For many teams,these 2 or 3 players were the straw that broke the camels back.



When the administration implodes under the burden of its own self importance, there is hope that those nasty disproportionately Influential Elite Private Schools will have maintained the ability to resurrect the game.

These influential Private Schools have probably made better footballers out of the individuals under their wing.But the base of the pyramid is smaller as a result of their policies.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think that the Village club model (which all the Junior Jarses have played in from U6 to Opens with varying degrees of "success" as well as school footy) is not the best model for the high school ages in its current format. Great for Mini and Midi rugby up to Under 12/U13's.

I agree that the AAGPS arms race is contributing to the shrinking of the pyramid. Some is partly their policies, many players choose to go to certain AAGPS schools on full fares because of a parental preference influenced by the overall extra curricular programme. The reality is that this is not going to change in the short to medium term.

We rugby lovers need to find ways using the vehicle of the ISA and CHS to try and broaden the base of the pyramid.

We need to get rid of the tug of war between clubland and school land. It is inefficient and too much time, energy and passion is used up in the struggle for relevance of the respective entities. Perhaps we need to look at the ACT integrated School/Club model, or look at aligning village clubs with CHS schools and using that volunteer base to grow the sport within the public schools.

There seems to be little incentive for teaching staff in the public system to go that little bit extra. This may be the opportunity for the Village clubs in High School years. We are very fortunate in the small number of non sports selective high schools like Homebush Boys that have a rugby team at all.

Much of Clubland seems hell bent on winning State championships, and premierships. There are far too many aggressive clubs and teams out there in clubland that have no problems with poaching players from other clubs, and mounting raids on the GPS and CAS system for good players which are used to win the titles. Like the Pulveriser's recent Force/Rebels imports policy, it is far easier to import than to grow your own.

In many respects there are some clubs and districts that are as guilty as the AAGPS schools are of being involved in an arms race that is narrowing the player base in their quest for state titles and premierships.

This current discussion has two aspects: Administration and Players

Schools Administration has it all over Clubland Administration. The latter seems to be on the verge of collapse. I think that they would collapse regardless of the influence that schools have.

Players. Schools seem to have little interest in growing the game provided that can fill their Year 7 intakes each year, with whatever topups they get along the way. Like you I am not happy with that approach. Clubland struggle when the players head into the AAGPS and CAS machine. They need support from the centre to fill the gaps left by the departing AAGPS/CAS boys from within the CHS ranks. Castle St Leonards is the only mob with enough clout to throw the necessary resources into the CHS domain to open the doors for clubland to recruit the required players to maintain competitive teams and a relevant and challenging competition.

Clubland desperately needs a model that is not reliant on AAGPS/CAS kids doubling up.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A new low has been hit:

The #12 in the President's 2nd XV is from St Doms which is not a GPS school and I am also 100% sure that he was in the MCS side at the CCC trials but didnt make the CCC side.
So how on earth can he then make a GPS side? rediculous
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...swjru-sjru-crju-2013.12708/page-8#post-500436

This is a reference to a boy who turned up at U16's trials and who's school is cited as St Dom's - not previously known to be a GPS school.
Apparently he is bound for newington - or maybe he is there.
http://portals.studentnet.edu.au/sports/uploads/DocArchive/DOCARC0003769.pdf

 

[Colin Windon]

IS, you are right on the money if your allegations are correct. Lets get confirmation but many of us were hoping that said school would relent from the arms race after the 150th was done.

It is frustrating, and IMHO counterproductive long term, that schools with strong rugby programmes can compete and even excel up to 16's to be shot down by selectively recruited 'super squads' in the opens.

These "super squads" have, to a large extent, been responsible for the retreat of the likes of Grammar and High to 3rds and have seen rugby diminished as a common bond within the school boy network.

I know there are good men and women working within these schools to reinvigorate a rugby culture but as the "super squads" seem to be part of the landscape how are they ever going to re join the top tier without having to stoop to the same mindless model.

 

[Quick Hands]

A new low has been hit:


This is a reference to a boy who turned up at U16's trials and who's school is cited as St Dom's - not previously known to be a GPS school.
Apparently he is bound for newington - or maybe he is there.
http://portals.studentnet.edu.au/sports/uploads/DocArchive/DOCARC0003769.pdf

I might be a bit slow on the uptake here, but am I correct in saying that a GPS 16s has been picked and included in it is a boy who is not currently at a GPS school?

If true, breathtaking in its sheer brazeness. It would appear that some are not even pretending to follow rules/guidelines/processes anymore.

It's becoming a bit like the fall of the Roman Republic.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I might be a bit slow on the uptake here, but am I correct in saying that a GPS 16s has been picked and included in it is a boy who is not currently at a GPS school?

If true, breathtaking in its sheer brazeness. It would appear that some are not even pretending to follow rules/guidelines/processes anymore.

It's becoming a bit like the fall of the Roman Republic.

I only read it in the list

 

[Rugby Mum 2]

I only read it in the list

It is interesting that the Presidents 16s team list do not appear on the aagps website anymore. Maybe this is usual practice ie one blink and you miss the teams on Monday after being posted on Sunday afternoon, or maybe they are correcting the glaring error such that no 12 will be allocated to Newington - I hope there have been a few embarrassed administrators being berated for not spell checking the team list. Sloppy but at the same time, so very brazen.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It is interesting that the Presidents 16s team list do not appear on the aagps website anymore. Maybe this is usual practice ie one blink and you miss the teams on Monday after being posted on Sunday afternoon, or maybe they are correcting the glaring error such that no 12 will be allocated to Newington - I hope there have been a few embarrassed administrators being berated for not spell checking the team list. Sloppy but at the same time, so very brazen.

I noticed the same thing and wondered.
Cat_A - where are you?
I noticed Scots and Scot's in the lists

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Rugby Mum 2, Green and Gold Rugby broke the Beale vs Vuna fight story from being vigilant on Twitter.

We may have broken the Under16 Pressies-Gate which has left the unpaid interns scurrying into damage control. Red faces all around.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Hugh Jarse could the "President" have made a, Gillard like, "Captain's choice".
These teams are not called GPS teams in the draw.

 

[sootyanddave]

Given that only GPS students have been selected in living memory,I would suggest that loophole does not exist.
...IMO