School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Mikeball]

and sydney high is another beast all together - everyone is on a free ride their and they have flexible enrolment policies in later years, hence their recent basketball teams.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I find the level of hysteria, hyperbole, denials and inaccuracy on this thread relatively amusing, and contribute on occasions to try and keep the debate based on facts rather than rumour.
If that comes across as preaching then so be it. I'm happy to be corrected if something I have posted is factually incorrect.

In a previous post (1614) Spieber suggested that Sharks circle at U16 schoolboys competition (assume that they mean both NSW Schools Trials, normally held at Knox, and the National U16 champs) and the NSW JRU State Championships.

Spieber advised that a player at those tournaments "would be sounded out" if he was any good (1609).

Spieber suggested that chances of landing a scholarship were improved if the U15/U16 rep team was coached by someone connected to an AAGPS school (1605). This was possibly a little tongue in cheek.

Addressing these in some semblance of order:
The sharks circling (Spieber term)/Clipboard carriers (my term) are synonyms.

These could be any of Rugby Lite scouts, Rugby scouts (ARU, Club, and Schools), Player managers (yes there are 15 and 16 yo's who have player managers) "minding" their charges Player Managers that are shopping for new product, or Gaggerland Match reporters.

There are fairly strict protocols at the tournaments controlled by ARU (and Aust Schools RU) regarding players being approached by accredited agents during the tournament. Not sure about the NSW Schools RU tournaments.

Fairly confident that there is open slather at NSW JRU and SJRU tournaments for Player Managers, Agents, Scouts and Spotters to approach players and/or parents.
Everyone knows this and it is often amusing to witness the hotbed of intrigue on the sidelines at U16 in particular, and U15 to a lesser degree. U17 is viewed by many (rightly or wrongly) as too late and the sidelines are fairly tame, as most of the circling sharks are focusing on the U16's.

The advice that good players will be sounded out at tournaments is correct. Sometimes it is done with a subtlety and subterfuge that the James Bond would be proud of. Sometimes it is as blatant as one of the ARU HPU blokes rocking up and inviting the boy to "testing" at Moore Park next week.
Most "good players" have been on the radar of the circling sharks for a year or two before the "sounding out" occurs.

The Tome I prepared on last years U16 rep teams (from Nationals) debunked the myth that there was any headhunting of last years U16 players by team coaches who had "relevant contacts at a AAGPS School".

Clipboard wielding circling sharks with relevant contacts at AAGPS schools may have approached players and/or parents outside the tournament, and even pressured parents to change schools as has been asserted by others on here.

This is different from the claim/suggestion that team coaches were actively recruiting for their school.
I will concede that this cohort saw some school changes between Under 15 and Under 16's, but even then there weren't too many, and there didn't appear to be any connection between rep team Coaches and the new schools.

Rep team coaches herding players towards their AAGPS school may have occurred in the past, but last years mob appear to be "clean" in this respect.

I'd be surprised if things are as rife as many posters allude to.
From what I am hearing, the numbers of parents approaching schools spruiking their kids athletic abilities in the hope of gaining some form of subsidised education significantly outnumber the number of "sounding outs" that occur from the circling sharks.

There are some very ethical and committed Rep rugby coaches out there who's reputations are unfairly tarnished by off-the-cuff remarks suggesting that they abuse their position of responsibility that they volunteer for with an intention of poaching kids for their school.

The scholarship providers/poachers/headhunters etc are normally fairly subtle in how they improve their playing stocks.

I really don't care too much either way on the whole scholarshiping thing, providing it is more or less kept in balance and not just about the "rich" getting "richer".

I have posed the question elsewhere on this thread, "If you were offered a full scholarship at a GPS school, would you actually turn it down?"

Not many people replied that they would. It is fairly understandable.

I believe that there are very few "full" scholarships, "fee relief" or "bursaries" out there inteh system. Not all scholarships are equal and the vast majority that I am aware of are for 50% or less fee reduction.

This thread goes around in circles as a cohort of parents/posters/players leave the School rugby system, and a new bunch arrive each year.

I'd repeat the question to the current batch of readers to this thread.

In the full knowledge that is is against a code of conduct for AAGPS and CAS*, would you turn down an offer of a Y7 - Y12 free education at a CAS or AAGPS School?




*I think sports scholarships are also against the ISA code of conduct but haven't been able to confirm this via a web site post. Most likely because the ISA Web site is rather user unfriendly.
Occasionally St Auggies cops some stick about this, normally not long after an "out of conference" match.
The ISA school rugby fraternity seem to accept that a strong Auggies (some scholarships) and Oakhill (no scholarships) are necessary to have a competitive (and relevant ISA) competition.

Most of this is motherhood material.
You isolate one year and extrapolate from that: you know full well that the year before one of the named schools had a teacher coaching/managing one of the NSW rep sides and that 6 members of that team turned up at his school in term 4 of that year (I am not saying that this was premeditated - but - it had the happy side effect of luring 6 to the school for its sesquicentenary).
Accordingly, unless you can point to a "change of heart" beginning last year, then last year is but one year - albeit one that may be the exception that proves the rule.
What is your source for the analysis that enables you to say that more approach the schools than are approached - even just a category of source might help? My inquiries of well connected (to the school and Council) parents at Shore, for instance, suggest there are far less inquiries than one would think.
Some people I know have rejected approaches from the named schools (not from Shore) at an early stage so the precise extent of the inducement on offer was never made clear.
In the last 10 days I have heard of a boy at one of the named schools having his bursary cut to 75% for disciplinary reasons: he is now said to be decamping to one of the unnamed schools on 100% scholarship/bursary.
Envy? surely the last resort for an argument that lacks factual foundations or moral acceptability.
I acknowledge my role as one of the most strident critics of this feature of modern schoolboy rugby in this forum. My concern is not motivated by envy: if it were I am in a position to remove the matter as an issue of concern to me if I choose - and i will leave it as cryptic as that. Suffice to say my kids are at school for an education - if the other GPS schools think that a GPS premiership is so important that the means justify the ends then they have different values to me and I will live with my decision on that.
My concern is that it is an entirely pointless concentration of scarce resources (the general u18 rugby playing populace) in a pointless 6 team competition to the detriment of Australian Rugby. That is my only concern.
Those who think that is an acceptable outcome because it permits their old school/their kid's school to win the comp really need to be on a forum other than one concerned with Australian Rugby - perhaps a forum dealing with vicarious living or past glories would be a better home.

 

[Starting Lineup]

ST Augustines $6K per year, Newington $30K per year - big difference in the term scholarship when comparing GPS and ISA

Depends Also if Boys want to travel, If they live closer to say Auggies and they can still crack Reps for NSW/ Australia Schoolboys and Still receive a Good Education a lot would not bother with the extra Travel Commitments. Regarding the Fees, Auggies are around $12,000 and Newington $25, 000

 

[Spieber]

The scholarship providers/poachers/headhunters etc are normally fairly subtle in how they improve their playing stocks.

I really don't care too much either way on the whole scholarshiping thing, providing it is more or less kept in balance and not just about the "rich" getting "richer".

I have posed the question elsewhere on this thread, "If you were offered a full scholarship at a GPS school, would you actually turn it down?"

Not many people replied that they would. It is fairly understandable.

I believe that there are very few "full" scholarships, "fee relief" or "bursaries" out there inteh system. Not all scholarships are equal and the vast majority that I am aware of are for 50% or less fee reduction.

This thread goes around in circles as a cohort of parents/posters/players leave the School rugby system, and a new bunch arrive each year.

I'd repeat the question to the current batch of readers to this thread.

In the full knowledge that is is against a code of conduct for AAGPS and CAS*, would you turn down an offer of a Y7 - Y12 free education at a CAS or AAGPS School?

Ok - once again the deniers are confusing the issue. This is not about the boys themselves being offered places in AAGPS schools - all the best to them and I hope their experiences hold them in good stead.

The issue is the impropriety of the schools. This is an excerpt from the Code of Practice

1. Code of Practice
   
   In the light of these principles, the GPS Headmasters affirm the following code of practice:
   
   1. No inducements such as sporting scholarships, whether direct, disguised, or at arm's length, shall be offered by any member school. Financial assistance to talented sportsmen shall not form part of the enrolment strategy of any member school.
   2. We affirm that the Headmaster of each school is responsible for knowing the special circumstances relating to the admission of boys to his school.
   3. In the selection and training of boys in teams or crews, the good of the individual boy shall remain paramount.
   4. While allowing for some exceptional circumstances, we believe that it is poor educational practice for a boy to engage in a single sport throughout the year.
   
   
   The Headmasters of the GPS Schools of New South Wales August, 2000.

How can a Headmaster possibly not query the circumstances behind a talented athlete wishing to join his school in say Term 4 Yr10?

 

[Mikeball]

please no more quoting code of practice - its been outdated for 20 years.

name one premiership team (any sport) that hasnt included recruited kids in the last year or so?

 

[Think About Rugby]

please no more quoting code of practice - its been outdated for 20 years.

name one premiership team (any sport) that hasnt included recruited kids in the last year or so?

Outdated is your word. The headmasters still say they adhere to it. This has now severely damaged GPS rugby. Grammar and High will never recover. The net effect will certainly be a weaker Sydney grade comp as kids that can play are discarded and discouraged.

If one more GPS school fell there wound not be a viable competition. How meaningful would the trophy be?

 

[Mikeball]

it is outdated, yes and the PM says she isnt going to impose a carbon tax.

The reality is, you will see the best rugby comp in its history this year over ten rounds, other sports now boast the highest standard of play. Its not always about the trophy to all schools, its about presenting an opportunity for a kid to improve, get access and fulfil their potential.

Fact - providing an opportunity for a sports kid is no different to music/academic scholars. Move on.

 

[whatever]

it is outdated, yes and the PM says she isnt going to impose a carbon tax.

The reality is, you will see the best rugby comp in its history this year over ten rounds, other sports now boast the highest standard of play. Its not always about the trophy to all schools, its about presenting an opportunity for a kid to improve, get access and fulfil their potential.

Fact - providing an opportunity for a sports kid is no different to music/academic scholars. Move on.

Then why deny that sporting scholarships exist?

At least be honest (ie: DragonMan) about your old school and with yourself.

 

[Mikeball]

i believe they do exist, and have for a very long time. There just not labelled sport. So call them whatever you like, or however they are issued. i dont get why its a big deal

 

[Inside Shoulder]

please no more quoting code of practice - its been outdated for 20 years.

name one premiership team (any sport) that hasnt included recruited kids in the last year or so?

SYDNEY Grammar HOTR 2011

 

[Inside Shoulder]

please no more quoting code of practice - its been outdated for 20 years.

name one premiership team (any sport) that hasnt included recruited kids in the last year or so?

Then get rid of it - have the balls to get rid of it: and see what happens!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

it is outdated, yes and the PM says she isnt going to impose a carbon tax.

The reality is, you will see the best rugby comp in its history this year over ten rounds, other sports now boast the highest standard of play. Its not always about the trophy to all schools, its about presenting an opportunity for a kid to improve, get access and fulfil their potential.

Fact - providing an opportunity for a sports kid is no different to music/academic scholars. Move on.

Crap - school is for education not rugby.

 

[Mikeball]

correct - except at newington

 

[cyclopath]

i believe they do exist, and have for a very long time. There just not labelled sport. So call them whatever you like, or however they are issued. i dont get why its a big deal

It's a big deal because they are not supposed to do it, the rules say they can't, and yet it happens.
If they ban music and academic scholarships, that would be a big deal too if schools blatantly breached it.
As Inside Shoulder said, school is about education, not winning sporting premiership trophies. Yes, that (sport) is a part of the experience, and a very important part, I believe. But it should not be the main game by any stretch. Students should feel they can participate on some sort of level playing field, accepting that there will always be some discrepancies, but to allow a blatantly multi-tiered system to develop in such a small organisation is plain wrong.

 

[Think About Rugby]

It's a big deal because they are not supposed to do it, the rules say they can't, and yet it happens.
If they ban music and academic scholarships, that would be a big deal too if schools blatantly breached it.
As Inside Shoulder said, school is about education, not winning sporting premiership trophies. Yes, that (sport) is a part of the experience, and a very important part, I believe. But it should not be the main game by any stretch. Students should feel they can participate on some sort of level playing field, accepting that there will always be some discrepancies, but to allow a blatantly multi-tiered system to develop in such a small organisation is plain wrong.

Well said! A perfect appraisal.

 

[Quick Hands]

correct - except at newington

I only venture onto this thread to expose hypocrisy and humbug and to correct the record where I am able.

Are you seriously suggesting that Newington are the only school offering inducements to sportsmen?

If they are they incredibly bad at it - sure they were undefeated last year, but 3 of those victories were by less than a try. 1 missed tackle, 1 bounce of the ball or 1 poor decision in any of those could have turned them into 3 losses. The only blowout victory they had was against Grammar. This would tend to suggest that most (not all) of the other schools are into it as well. They might be more subtle than Newington and they might not do it to the same degree, but if they were the only school engaged in this you'd expect them to be winning by 50 or 60 points every week.

Their HSC and IB results would also indicate that Newington are going better academically than Scots and Joeys and roughly equal to Riverview and Kings.

I'm not trying to justify what Newington are doing and I don't agree with the practise, but any objective viewing of this thread coupled with numerous conversations that I have with rugby people lead me to believe that 5 of the current 6 schools in the GPS 1st XV rugby competition offer inducements to talented sportsmen.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Then get rid of it - have the balls to get rid of it: and see what happens!

Queensland more or less did. Scholarshipping is blatant and by all accounts open. Not all participants offer rugby scholarships. Not everyone up there appears to support that situation. Somehow despite occasional encouragement from some on this thread, the discussion ia almost 99.99% related to NSW (AAGPS) scholarshipping. No real comment from Queensland scribes.

Over in the Shaky Isles, Some schools advertise rugby scholarships in the press, including public high schools like Otago Boys High School. The NZ Rugby arms race is not limited to the private sector.

Don't know about Safferland or in the NH. Anyone care to comment?

Down in Mexico, there is a fair bit of head shaking about St Kevin's who are beating most opponents by cricket scores most weeks, but nowhere near the level of debate about scholarshipping that there is in Olde Sydney Towne. Perhaps related to the smaller number of Gaggerlanders from Victoria. By all accounts St Kevin's provides a quality education to talented athletes, not all of whom are full fee paying.
Does anyone care to comment about how Combat Netball (Aust Rules) scholarships work in the Bleak City, Adelaide and Perth? They must face similar issues as we do with Patrician Brothers Blacktown in Rugby Lite.

How does the AFL schoolboys competition work in AFL heartland's of Adelaide, Bleak City, or Perth in the face of any Scholarship Arms Race?

Crap - school is for education not rugby.

In my day there were plenty who were at school to eat lunch and bugger all else. Any education outcomes like numeracy, literacy or philosophy that they received were purely accidental and unintended consequences of them attending school.

While many of the aspirational class and education theorists would agree that schools are for education and contributing to the nations knowledge base, and plenty of other word of the day buzzwords (especially when they are paying a small fortune in aftertax dollars for that education), there are a very large number of people on the left side of the bell curve that aspire to less honorouble outcomes from school than such lofty objectives.

Cue the 13 year old girl from Melbourne that was part of 80000 others at the Sydney vs Collingwood combat netball game last Friday night. Not her fault, she is simply a product of her family and friend network, reflecting the mores of her life experiences.

Rugby is out to capture and convert the hearts and minds of people that think like that, and turn them to our game. An extreme example of how hard the battle to expand Heavensgame into certain demographics really will be.

 

[Kenny Powers]

My concern is not motivated by envy: if it were I am in a position to remove the matter as an issue of concern to me if I choose - and i will leave it as cryptic as that.

My concern is that it is an entirely pointless concentration of scarce resources (the general u18 rugby playing populace) in a pointless 6 team competition to the detriment of Australian Rugby. That is my only concern..

That's about as cryptic as Donald Trump's hair. So from the horse's mouth, which school(s) and did it get as far as quantifying the opportunity?

If the future of Australian Rugby turns on what 6 schools unassociated with the ARU that's a pretty sad state of affairs. Personally I don't believe it does. It's a good high standard competition but it's not the be all and end all of Australian Rugby, although reading this forum you would be forgiven for thinking otherwise!

What I believe has been far more detrimental to Rugby is how the game has stopped being played in some CHS schools altogether. Not teams playing in a different lower division I am talking no teams at all, no students playing rugby.

If the ARU wants the most bang for it buck (and it doesn't have many) this is where it should apply it's resources.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think where Inside Shoulder is coming from is that if certain talented athletes were still in the CHS system, then there schools may be able to build a team around them.

Randwick Boys High School f'r example has provided at least two boys to this years NEW 1st XV, 1 joining in Yr 11 (yes after representing SJRU at U16 level) and one transferring a year earlier.

When those boys were at Randwick, that school didn't have a regular Rugby Team, but without them 5 other fringe rugby kids are disinclined to pull on their boots for the school and there is bugger all chance of having a team.

Moving to NEW, the boys in question undoubtably get a better rugby education, playing tougher games week in week out. The unintended consequence of the concentration of the talented athletes into only 6 schools is the collapse of footy everywhere else.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think where Inside Shoulder is coming from is that if certain talented athletes were still in the CHS system, then there schools may be able to build a team around them.

Randwick Boys High School f'r example has provided at least two boys to this years NEW 1st XV, 1 joining in Yr 11 (yes after representing SJRU at U16 level) and one transferring a year earlier.

When those boys were at Randwick, that school didn't have a regular Rugby Team, but without them 5 other fringe rugby kids are disinclined to pull on their boots for the school and there is bugger all chance of having a team.

Moving to NEW, the boys in question undoubtably get a better rugby education, playing tougher games week in week out. The unintended consequence of the concentration of the talented athletes into only 6 schools is the collapse of footy everywhere else.

That is my point. @kennypowers I am mainly talking about the game not the elite level of the game - although the more people who play it at all levels the better the chance of unearthing the necessary elite level talent.
Also my point was that I can (only just) pay fees to any one of these schools if I choose and feel the need to be part of a tilt at the rugby premiership, followed by a disappointing HSC, in which my offspring may or may not participate directly.
Judging by the Facebook page of one of the families that left RBHS there was a school team in his year. Don't know the position now. I recall him trialling in u 16s and opens for CHS - so he was evidently highly thought of in that system.


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